Your ranking system

[Seig]

I read the link provided about what the stars mean. What I found interesting was the 15 degrees of black belt. I study American Kenpo. We only go up to 10, could you please elaborate more on your ranking system?

 

[jibran]

Ben Cole made a good post about this on MAP:

Soke made mention of the idea of the "additional" five levels of tenth dan as early as 1983.... Although they are called "Eleventh dan", "Twelfth dan", etc. those are merely heuristics to separate the differences. All of these ranks are different forms of tenth dan, although they are given out in a particular order--which makes the "eleventh", "twelfth", etc. labeling adopted by some seem sensical. The ranks are as follows:

Judan Chigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Earth aka "11th Dan")
Judan Suigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Water aka "12th Dan")
Judan Kagyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Fire aka "13th Dan")
Judan Fugyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Wind aka "14th Dan")
Judan Kugyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Emptyness aka "15th Dan")

 

[AnimEdge]

I think the highest i heard mine go up to is 5th
I think i can tel yall this
anyhow you must do not only that lvl but everything below it during that test
we have in American Ninutsu(RBWI):

-White(Default)
This is the default sence all youneed to know is the school rules and stances

-Green(6months or so)Im at
You have the basics down: Kicks, Punches, Knees, Elbows, and basic techs

-High-Green(8months)I will be early Dec
You have the basic guarding down: Guarding, Evasion, more complex kicks and punches few more basic techs

-Blue
More complex kicks and punches, lotsa combinations,break falls,fakes and feints, and redirection skills

-High-Blue
Even more complex Kicks, more combinations, sweeps, and pain and point pressures

-Purple
Join Manipulations, Throws, and basic weapon jamming and take downs

-High-Purple
Lotsa ground drills and ground techniques and ground subbmisions

-Brown
Lots of Trapping, and a whole lot of Half Staff Club and Bo staff tech and disarms

-High Brown
Lots of Claw, Kubaton and short stick and sword tech, disarms and so on

-Red
Lots and lots of knife and net and wall stuff

-High-Red
Projectile,stealth, 2-1, 3rd party, sentry removal and guns

-Black
Everything! above and a 3 hour ***-being kicked sparing session

There is higher ones but there pretty hush hush about it, all i know is most dont go up much higher at my school becouse they basicly to be a 2nd you have to do like the balck belt test twice and so on but im unsure

 

[Dale Seago]

I read the link provided about what the stars mean. What I found interesting was the 15 degrees of black belt. I study American Kenpo. We only go up to 10, could you please elaborate more on your ranking system?

From the FAQ page at my site:

Q: What about belt ranks - kyu and dan grades?

A: These are a recent development in Japanese arts. The old arts have shoden, chuden, and okuden (low, middle, and advanced) levels, with the hiden or secret oral teachings passed only to a select few. Bujinkan students do not receive kyu or dan ranks in any of the nine systems, but Hatsumi sensei has instituted such grades for the Bujinkan "umbrella" organization. The current rank structure is “modern”, in the sense that kyu and dan grades are used; yet it also harks back to the ancient shoden/chuden/okuden form in that there are three general levels of training and understanding.

There are nine kyu grades (beginning with 9th and advancing through first), signified by a green belt worn by the practitioner. These are followed by fifteen dan grades, signified by a black belt. The kyu ranks, essentially, are “preparation to become a student” of Bujinkan budo; and one is considered to be ready to really begin learning at first dan or first-degree black belt.

The dan ranks or black belt grades are divided into three general levels: Ten, Chi, Jin or Heaven, Earth, and Man, as follows:

1st through 5th dan: Heaven
6th through 10th dan: Earth
11th through 15th dan: Man

These correspond roughly to the old shoden, chuden, and okuden levels of training.

Since Hatsumi sensei is the soke or inheritor of the nine systems, he can reorganize the training material and the rank structure of the Bujinkan as he sees fit: All ranks emanate from him. The approach to ranking in the Bujinkan is vastly different from that of other arts. In most martial arts the rank structure denotes specific skill sets for standardized grades, and also establishes a hierarchical authority structure - what in the military would be called a chain of command. In the Bujinkan, rank does neither. People in other martial arts inevitably find this confusing; but then, so do Bujinkan members.

Hatsumi sensei has for many years staunchly resisted pleas from Bujinkan members to establish specific measurable criteria for ranks, explaining that such an approach tends to "kill" a real martial art because people tend to focus on what they need to pass a rank test rather than on the essential principles which will allow them to respond freely and appropriately in actual life protection. He has instead encouraged instructors to establish their own standards for their own training groups.

At the same time, he has followed no easily discernible criteria for his own award of ranks above 5th dan. Dan ranks are not certain indicators of an instructor's technical proficiency or teaching ability, and they do not confer any specific authority over others of a lower grade.

The only meaningful conclusion which can be drawn about Bujinkan ranking is that its meaning is a personal thing between the teacher who awards it and the student who receives it. Each rank awarded to each person is, in reality, as unique as any actual combat encounter.

 

[Satt]

Is there a standard ranking system in the Bujinkan? If so, what are the ranks called and the belt colors in order??? Thanks a lot. I probably should know this, but I am still a beginner.

 

[Tengu6]

The standard rank system in the Bujinkan Is as follows:

White Belt = Mukyu (before rank) - No patch
Green belt = Kyu levels (9-1) - Red patch w/white border and kanji
9th kyu = no stars
8th kyu = 1 silver star
7th kyu = 2 silver stars
6th kyu = 3 silver stars
5th kyu = 4 silver stars
4th kyu = 1 gold star (all siver stars are removed at this point)
3rd kyu = 2 gold stars
2nd kyu = 3 gold stars
1st kyu = 4 gold stars
Black Belt = Dan levels (1-15) - Red Patch w/black border and black kanji
Star cycle starts over - starting with none
Shodan (1st dan) = no stars
Ni dan (2dn dan) = 1 silver star
San dan (3rd dan) = 2 silver stars
Yon dan (4th dan) = 3 silver stars
Go dan (5th dan) = Red Patch w/black kanji outlined in white and a white border (no stars)
Roku dan (6th dan) = 1 gold star
Nana dan (7th dan) = 2 gold stars
Hatchi dan (8th dan) = 3 gold stars
Kyu dan (9th dan) = 4 gold stars
Ju dan (10th dan) = orange/tellow patch with green kanji and a light blue border - No stars
11th through 15th dan I am not sure if stars are worn

By 5th dan one should have seen and be able to effectivly demonstrait the scrolls from all 9 ryu. Rank given beyond 5th kyu is based on skill, proficiency and the ability to "flow", interchanging portions of the techniques as needed in a given situation.

Hatsumi has stated that anyone NOT training with him in the last 10 years continuously is NOT true Shihan....as the level of his teaching has dramaticly changed or I should say progressed due to the practitioners having gotten better to a point that he can now elevate his level of teaching......regular training means just that TRAINING....not merely showing up for a photo op with Hatsumi.

this is a primary reason for the 11th through 15th dans are to say "these are TRUE shihan. The ranks are based more on character and contribution (not monatary) to the Bujinkan.

Hope that helps a bit.

Markk Bush

 

[Tengu6]

Ju dan (10th dan) = orange/yellow patch with green kanji and a light blue border - No stars



typo........

Markk Bush

 

[Tengu6]

I should also note that some schools add other colored belts to split things up a bit...most notably a brown belt around 5th or 4th kyu


Also, most schools do not use the star system so often..mostly because rank is generaly not a huge focus for Bujinkan practitioners.....it is more about the training....but some like the formality.

Markk Bush

 

[Don Roley]

By 5th dan one should have seen and be able to effectivly demonstrait the scrolls from all 9 ryu.

I take it you are nowhere near fifth dan. How long have you been training?

Here are the facts, I have only a few things in my notes from the Gikan ryu, Gyokushin ryu and Kumogakure ryu, and I think that is more than 99 percent of the fifth dans out there. The vast, vast majority of people can not identify anything outside of the 6 schools that are commonly taught. Even Manaka says he only teaches the 6 schools becasue that is all he was taught. And as nice as it would be to say that the typical fifth dan could show knowledge from all 6 schools, most probably cannot even tell the differences in the ways of recieving an attack between the Koto, Gyokko and Shinde Fudo ryu.

Fifth dan is not that big of a deal. Sorry to come down a little strict, but I don't want people to start thinking the wrong thing. And the idea that the typical fifth dan even has seen something from all 9 schools is certainly wrong.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Don,

I know what you say is true. Mark and I have conversed over our personal E mails and he is a super nice guy and is a great bennefit to the Bujinkan and not like so many of the crazies we run into every year. I myself have the notes to six of the ryu that are nearly complete, and like him I am still learning. The fact is, as Long as I train in this art I will always be learning. I myself am just a Shodan trying to learn and help others along the way.

There have been individuals in the past claiming to have Gikan, Kumigakure, or Gyokushin, but eveybody out there that I hang around still claims that Sensei has not taught them yet. Besides that we may never learn them. Sensei has said from the beginning that only a few will get the full range of ninja skills. (At least that is what Hayes put into his book) If It turns out that I get the knowledge, fine, if not, there is enough in six ryu to keep a person occupied for the rest of their lives. I personally feel that I am blessed to have received what I have up to this point in my studies of this art. Thanks for reminding us all about what is truly out there.

 

[Tengu6]

Don you are correct, my bad. The techniques are vast and you right about the 3 elusive ryu. Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to say one would have a pretty good understanding of the 9 ryu at Godan. It had been said my many that just because those ryu are not extensively covered (and as you mentioned some have not seem much if anything from them specificly), it does not mean they havent been taught. Charles Daniel made this comment that just because those ryu have not really been outright taught as techniques exclusive to the given ryu does not mean that they have not been taught at all.......meaning they may closely resemble those of other ryu and therefor Hatsumi sees no need to show them. I think when posed with that question Charles said "how do you know you havent seen them"? Of course this is not from Hatsumi's mouth so one can only speculate.

It may also be worth mentioning that what you see by Godan is very much dependant on what your teacher has seen...and taught. Some people have spent varying amounts of time in Shodan only to pass the Godan test at a Taikai event.

I too do not want to give a false impression, upon further reviewing my post I also would like to say that there is no set curriculum that says "at such and such level this is taught"

I should also state that the Bujinkan is not a collection of techniques that need to be regurgitated to pass rank.........it is about understanding movement an flow, with various portions of techniques melding together as the aplication dictates in the moment.

Thanks for bringing that up Don.

Markk Bush

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

(At least that is what Hayes put into his book)

Riiiiiiight.

As far as I know, there are several shihan who have been taught Gikan ryu.

 

[Jay Bell]

Chris,

When you say that your notes are almost complete...are you saying that about the full ryu, or what has been shared in Bujinkan training?

Example...the Takagi Yoshin ryu has kihon and basic fundemental aspects that I have never seen shared within Bujinkan. Koto ryu, the levels of training we are given is a small part of the entirety of the ryu.

This is one of the reasons that I lost a lot of faith in note taking (beyond feeling). A lot of technique grabbers and documenters have a hard time (myself included) understanding the bigger picture. Others like the novelty of having everything on paper...as though the value is the paper and not what's learned.

In the years that I was part of the Bujinkan, I saw a "step sequence" that was similar to how Kumogakure ryu would move....and a few random ideas concerning Gikan ryu from a close friend who had worked on it in Japan. And I had to travel far distances to just have those shared. Go figure.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

I am saying what has been shared. I have seen several different lists from different places of what is supposed to be out there and compared my notes to to those and comparitively speaking to those lists they are almost complete.I am not nor ever will try to mislead anyone about what I am or have.

And Nim, are you talking about Japanese Shihan Or the american Shihan. Now before someone goes off on me for saying american Shihan, Please know I have had some teachers that say it is a title reserved for the japanese and the americans have adopted it. I dont Know what is correct here. So bear with me.

 

[Satt]

Ok, thanks for the good answers guys. I am also curious where the stars go. Do they go on the belt, or the collar, or where...??? Thanks again.

 

[Kreth]

I am also curious where the stars go. Do they go on the belt, or the collar, or where...??? Thanks again.

They go just above your patch.

Jeff

 

[Satt]

They go just above your patch.

Jeff

Ok bare with me... Is the patch on your chest or your shoulder or where??? Thanks.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Let me also add to my above posts. These notes were neatly typed up and printed and have come to me from many places. Ed sent me five ryu, I already had Kukishin Ryu. No I have not worked on all the kata but have worked on at least the shoden (I know there are different names for the Gyokko levels) level of them. I have been exposed to many of the kata from a teacher to help me to undrstand the feeling of the ryu. Not just the shoden levels of these things either. I still have much to learn and explore, so dont bash me too badly.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Left Chest

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I was talking about European shihan, even though I find it unlikely that the Japanese haven't been taught anything at all.

Those interested in exploring Takagi Yoshin ryu indepth might want to check out Arnaud's manual from www.budomart.com that among other things lists every technique with a brief explanation to each. No, no pictures.