Hoko no kamae, legalities, and other considerations

[Don Roley]

One of the other threads started out about a fight and something that happened in it with the starter wanting to know the Japanese name. Well, it turned onto a path of people talking about the incident, the beer involved and the legal problems afterwards. I kind of got to thinking and thought I would continue the discussion on a slightly different path here.

In the Takamatsu-den we have a stance called "hoko no kamae." For those of you not familiar with the term, imagine the classic Iraqi salute with the arms in the air, slightly curved inwards. There are other varients taught me by my Japanese teachers. One of them can be said to be lowering the arms a bit to a kind of "keep back" stance.

I have used this stance in training for a beggining stance before the blows start. If anyone looks at me just prior to the fight, the will see a guy with body language saying that he does not want a fight. If the police ask them, they will possibly remember this. I practice saying, "I don't want any trouble! Leave me alone! I don't want any of this macho (censored.)"

If anyone hears that, they may remember it if asked. According to Marc MacYoung, he has found the comment about macho stuff to be picked up on a lot by females.

If there is trouble, I do not want it to appear I started it. Maybe taking that stance will get the other guy to back off. And if it does come to blows, I can be pretty sure the blow will be coming straight for me rather than from the outside. But after the fight has stopped, I hope that people remember that when they heard the yelling just before the fight started I was the guy backing away with my hands in a "stay away" stance. It may save me from being booked into the jail for the night and an expensive legal situation later.

Comments anyone? I would like to hear more about dealing with the police after a situation. But if Bujinkan students just take what I wrote about hoko no kamae and apply it in a realistic way in their training, I may have done my good deed for the day.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I believe this type of stance is also the standard ready position when empty handed in Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. Keeping your palms slightly inwards also gives additional security when parrying knife attacks.
Of course, it could also be useful if you run into a mountain lion...

By the way, Don, you might want to lighten your inbox a little.

 

[Moko]

I beleive the stance in the original attack was shizen. After the first part it changed into a sideways shizen. I don't recall if the hands went up but a part of the training involved was that hands should come up.
Blading the body, turning it into an ichimonji-oid stance does send the message, "Let's rock, Dickhead." Palms out also is recognized internationally, palms in is more agressive.
The old (Or olde) salute of one Western warrior to another was of the right hand raised palm out to show the disarmed nature of the warrior. This salute was later made infamous by a countryman of the current California Governor.

Hoko is the mother of all salutes.

 

[Dale Seago]

Comments anyone?

I teach exactly that, Don. What's more, it's documented, as it was used extensively in a half-day "mini-seminar" I taught in September which was videotaped by one of my yudansha and subsequently titled "Close Work". (I do these on the 3rd Sunday of each month, for whoever feels like showing up, and recently began taping them as a way of identifying and working on my own weak points.)

This session was inspired by something that had happened to one of my students a week or so previously, when he tried to de-escalate harrassment of a friend he was with on a municipal bus by a Latino gang. They ended up turning on him, followed him off the bus, and when he tried to bug out they caught him within a few paces. The guy he threw to the ground (my student is a sandan and very good technically) wasn't terribly impressed by that and got right up, which encouraged the others; and my student ended up dancing around in grappling mode with one of them while the rest swarmed around trying to land head shots. . .all of which provided time for the original instigator to get off the bus, walk up, and level a handgun at my guy, whereupon the others (evidently unsure of the quality of his marksmanship) broke and ran. My student managed to talk his way out of it. He ended up with nothing worse than a few split-open spots on his head and face.

The problem wasn't my lad's level of knowledge or skill; rather, when push came to shove (which is literally how it started), he found he wanted only two things: (1) He wanted to disengage and get out of there (totally admirable as far as I'm concerned), and (2) He "didn't want to hurt anyone". (Obviously, this could provide good fodder for another thread.)

So the training session was oriented toward situations where the attack is initiated at close range; then after a bit we began adding further attackers jumping in to help their buddy as the first one makes his move; which then went to one guy trying to tie you up while multiple armed attackers then try to get in on you. Used a lot of concepts derived from Togakure ryu's Tonkatsugata (sorry, but it's a mnemonic that works for me. :lol: ). . .Deceive/distract/surprise (create "shock and awe"), escape, survive. May do a lot of damage in the process, but that's incidental and not the specific goal. And our basic "starting point" was that dropped-down form of Hoko no kamae and the sort of verbiage you're describing.

 

[Cryozombie]

One of them can be said to be lowering the arms a bit to a kind of "keep back" stance.

I have used this stance in training for a beggining stance before the blows start. If anyone looks at me just prior to the fight, the will see a guy with body language saying that he does not want a fight. If the police ask them, they will possibly remember this. I practice saying, "I don't want any trouble! Leave me alone! I don't want any of this macho (censored.)"

Yep... we do that exact same thing... I actually have to learn to use that type of variant of the angry bear in conjunction with de-escalation wording to either back my opponent down, or defend when he takes it as a sign of weakness and attacks anyhow in the Kyu I am working on now...

 

[r erman]

I don't like 'me too' posts. But me too.

I've taught and practiced with hoko as an 'I don't want any trouble' position for years. I use that and a more upright seigan with the hands turned palm out for most adrenal stress drills.

What I like about hoko is that it invites attack to the mid-section so you can bait the attacker and 'control' his mind. It also transitions very easily into a 'spear' movement as Blauer would call it.

 

[Shogun]

I don't like 'me too' posts. But me too.

Maybe there is an ultimate Kamae.......?
My instructor tells me if you cant find a "body attitude" in the technique, your probably doing it wrong.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Maybe there is an ultimate Kamae.......?
My instructor tells me if you cant find a "body attitude" in the technique, your probably doing it wrong.

Actually, a very high ranking shihan told us at a seminar recently (no, not Tim) that on the battlefield there are no "traditional" kamae, no uke and tori, no techniques. In fact, there are only three kamae that matter - high, low and middle, of which the latter is the strongest.

 

[Peter Steeves]

I am very impressed with the original post, and the way this thread is moving.

Mr. Seago, I'm also still chuckling from the "tonkatsugata" thing - wonderful!

When I moved back to the US, I noticed quickly that our favorite hobby here is taking each other to court. If I planned to teach martial arts, I thought I should learn a little about its place in that context. So, I became a licensed instructor of a certain level of CDT - which is meant to address precisely that concern.

Well, let me first say that if you have a competent instructor in the "Takamatsu-den" then you already know all of the techniques (and *much* more) than found in CDT. However, I didn't know the use-of-force details. When encountering a punch of any sort, they teach a variation of what we all consider Hoko-no-kamae. What we do is more effective, but it's still interesting to see its universal use for that context.

Finally, onto the topic Mr. Seago brought up - fighting within groups...since we're discussing Hoko - a part of Koto Ryu - it may be worthwhile to consider practicing the Okuden for a while. The techniques there have this situation very much in mind - that's why there are virtually no "finishing moves." Rather, each technique is a way to quickly get rid of the person nearest you - so you're still up and ready for the next (and the next...)

Keep up this great thread!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Finally, onto the topic Mr. Seago brought up - fighting within groups...since we're discussing Hoko - a part of Koto Ryu - it may be worthwhile to consider practicing the Okuden for a while. The techniques there have this situation very much in mind - that's why there are virtually no "finishing moves." Rather, each technique is a way to quickly get rid of the person nearest you - so you're still up and ready for the next (and the next...)

I don't know but a shako ken to the throat by someone who has had his or her hands conditioned Koto ryu stylee seems like a pretty "fight-stopping" move to me...

 

[Dale Seago]

. . .So, I became a licensed instructor of a certain level of CDT - which is meant to address precisely that concern.

Well, let me first say that if you have a competent instructor in the "Takamatsu-den" then you already know all of the techniques (and *much* more) than found in CDT. However, I didn't know the use-of-force details. When encountering a punch of any sort, they teach a variation of what we all consider Hoko-no-kamae. What we do is more effective, but it's still interesting to see its universal use for that context.

I agree with you. CDT also has a version they teach for protective service operations and the company I work for, The Steele Foundation, uses it as the official hand-to-hand component of our Executive/Dignitary Protection Training program. I have a license in that, though not (yet) a CDT instructor certification. For what it's intended for, it's good stuff.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

We train alot with several variations of hoko but also saying leave me alone i dont want to fight, etc. Hands up in the air, slinking down looking as if we are scared, hiding our faces in jumonji while leaveing our middle open to attack so we will be ready to launch into action. Ed teaches many things from hiding the technique so it looks to a bystander that you are just trying to escape.

Our waiver in the school says the student must use the minimum force necessary to get out of a situation. If someone gets into your house and you shoot them one time, it is self and family defence. If you empty the clip, it is excessive and will end you up in jail, prison, death row etc.

 

[Kreth]

We train alot with several variations of hoko but also saying leave me alone i dont want to fight, etc. Hands up in the air, slinking down looking as if we are scared, hiding our faces in jumonji while leaveing our middle open to attack so we will be ready to launch into action. Ed teaches many things from hiding the technique so it looks to a bystander that you are just trying to escape.

These are good ideas. A lot of people forget about kyojitsu in their training.

Jeff

 

[Dale Seago]

Our waiver in the school says the student must use the minimum force necessary to get out of a situation.

As a concept, I agree with that.

If someone gets into your house and you shoot them one time, it is self and family defence. If you empty the clip, it is excessive and will end you up in jail, prison, death row etc.

I disagree with that.

Use of a firearm is, in every state I know of, considered "deadly force". That has nothing to do with what your intentions are or what you're trying to do to the attacker; rather it's legally considered to be a level and type of force which can result in death (same applies to knives).

What this means is that you are only justified in shooting someone -- at all -- if you're justified in killing him to stop what he's doing. Doesn't matter whether you're trying to kill him, or to "just shoot him a little bit", or whether you empty the magazine or cylinder. Has to be a situation where you're justified in risking his death by the action you take to stop the attack.

Something else to be aware of is that the effects of a bullet -- just like those of a punch -- are highly variable and dependent on a wide variety of circumstances. One shot, even a fatal one, may not always stop an attack in time to save you or the person you're protecting: I remember reading once about a felon who took a police shotgun blast to the chest which shredded his heart, and who still ran a block or so before collapsing from loss of blood pressure and brain deoxygenation.

What's generally taught in law enforcement, and in the protective services industry I work in, is that if you do have to shoot, you keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. If he turns out to be still alive afterward, only moderately injured, etc., that's great, you can start first aid/CPR/whatever and call emergency medical services -- the only important thing is that the threat has been neutralized.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

As a concept, I agree with that.



I disagree with that.

Use of a firearm is, in every state I know of, considered "deadly force". That has nothing to do with what your intentions are or what you're trying to do to the attacker; rather it's legally considered to be a level and type of force which can result in death (same applies to knives).

What this means is that you are only justified in shooting someone -- at all -- if you're justified in killing him to stop what he's doing. Doesn't matter whether you're trying to kill him, or to "just shoot him a little bit", or whether you empty the magazine or cylinder. Has to be a situation where you're justified in risking his death by the action you take to stop the attack.

Something else to be aware of is that the effects of a bullet -- just like those of a punch -- are highly variable and dependent on a wide variety of circumstances. One shot, even a fatal one, may not always stop an attack in time to save you or the person you're protecting: I remember reading once about a felon who took a police shotgun blast to the chest which shredded his heart, and who still ran a block or so before collapsing from loss of blood pressure and brain deoxygenation.

What's generally taught in law enforcement, and in the protective services industry I work in, is that if you do have to shoot, you keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. If he turns out to be still alive afterward, only moderately injured, etc., that's great, you can start first aid/CPR/whatever and call emergency medical services -- the only important thing is that the threat has been neutralized.

Thanks for clarifying that. So excessive force would be to keep shooting after the threat has been neutralized. Is this a better way to put it?

 

[Dale Seago]

Thanks for clarifying that. So excessive force would be to keep shooting after the threat has been neutralized. Is this a better way to put it?

Yes. As another way to look at it, let's say some guy attacks you with a knife (deadly force) while you're unarmed and you do an arm-breaking gyakuzeoi-nage on him in such a way that you could also, if you wished, break his neck and shoulder as he pile-drives into the ground. You'd be legally justified in doing that, as a level of force matching that of the attacker, to ensure that the attack will not continue.

But let's say you don't finish that way, you decide to modify it so that when he comes down he doesn't break his neck and shoulder; and he's lying there stunned from the impact, with a dislocated elbow, the knife now lying several feet away, and he shows no inclination to get to his feet. In that case you've neutralized the attack, but neither this situation nor the neck-breaking one would be (legally) an "excessive" response as long as you stop there. You order him to stay put while you call 911 to have both police and an ambulance dispatched.

But let's change it once again. He's lying there pretty clearly helpless, shows no inclination to continue, but you proceed to stomp the crap out of him as he lies there. That's excessive, both morally and legally.

 

[ginshun]

I agree with the points bought up in the first post. My teacher teaches the same type of things. Hoko is also a pretty non-threatening stance, and probably the easiest one to take, and still be able to talk your way out of the situation, which is pretty much always preferable to actually fighting.

Great thread.

 

[Elizium]

Just a quick note to correct Technopunk on what he said. Hoko is hoko and not angry bear stance. It was called angry bear due to the way it looks. It does look like an angry bear in general, but it is only called hoko and is a receiving posture.

 

[KyleShort]

On a related note, when I trained in the Bujinkan koko was my favorite kamae...I guess you could say that I internalized it better and felt the spirit of it much more then others like ichi monji or jumonji...In any case a few years ago I was walking down a street in Sydney with some business associates and a parrot shot out from a tree on the side of the street. I was not conciously aware of it, but my body dropped instantly into hoko...waiting for incomming danger as I had trained it. The very moment that I had sunk as low as I was going to go, I felt the parrot whistle over my head and ruffle my hair.

At that point I had no idea what had just happened...my companions, after they stopped laughing, told me that a something shot out from the bush so fast that they thought it was a missle. It just barely missed me and had it hit I would have been in serious trouble =) They followed the missle and watched it land, identifying it as a rainbow laurel (they are like pigeons in Sydney)...which of course started their laughter.

Kinda silly, but even the smallest things can cause serious harm and hoko saved my butt =)

I still practice hoko as a compliment to my training in Escrima/Sambo.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Hoko also elevates your arms above your heart, useful if you've been cut or something.