Traditional Training Styles - importance of non-compliant training

[Dwi Chugi]

Doomx, thank you for the welcome. I enjoy reading the posts from fellow hakidoin and martial artist in general. You will find that I find a true interest in seeing others view on the art that I love. I may not find everything valid for me that is posted by others but I will always keep an open mind and value others views. I love to ask questions on how other styles and systems of Hapkido and martial arts train.

Kong soo do, great posts. I agree you have to train "live" to prove what works vs. what is shown just because it's part of the system. It is true that a fight is dirty and ugly. It does not look like an aiki/Hapkido demonstration. I also think you have to train compliantly at first to get the technique down. We train different types of techniques different times of year. We do more techniques off of dynamic attack vs static wrist or lapel grabs. Please don't get we wrong we do train defense off wrist and lapel grabs its just my belief one is attacked with someone entering in with a technique then some one grabbing a body part. I live in Daytona Beach, Florida and the temp reaches 97 degrees with 100% humidity in the summer. We usually dress in shorts and a tank top. We are usually sweaty so wrist breakaway's or someone grabbing your shirt is not usually an issue.

What kind of live training do you do in kong soo do? How do you make it realistic without hurting each other? How often does your dojang train live?

As I posted earlier we run lines where the head of the line is attacked straight on, a circle where the person in the center of the circle is attacked at random by the people on the outside of the circle at random and finally different types of sparring. Yesterday's rules were you were allowed to punch, kick, knee as hard as you wanted to the body and lightly to the face. Throws and take downs were legal and grappling to submission was ok too. Our main goal however was to get our opponent down while staying on our feet. Tuesday we will be doing the circle as our live training.

 

[zDom]

... you have two venues; the first is theory and the second is experience. Touching on the first, the majority of martial artists and indeed instructors teach from theory.

.... A compliant, willing partner is of no value. ...

... a prime example of those that have learned from someone that has no practical experience and teaches from theory...who in turn learned from someone with no practical experience and teaches from theory...and so on up the line.

[vs]

... anyone in the lineage, such as a police officer/corrections officer/bouncer etc that put various skill sets to the test within your art? Can anyone verify first-hand that a particular skill-set works? Is the skill set your teaching/learning going to actually work against a determined attacker? What is your level of confidence in it...and why?

...

If you and/or your partner aren't taking serious and training as real as is possible (while still being able to walk out of the school the way you walked in) then your not doing yourself..or him/her any favors.

I agree with some and disagree with other parts of the unedited post, probably because of my context.

I think you are making some valid points, without doubt.


Here is my context, however: I HAVE been in fights. Lots. Since I was old enough to leave the front yard up until I was in a very serious altercation against against three grown men, one of which was a very serious individual wielding a tire tool.

And the martial art school I ended up in was founded by

Lee H. Park, who was witnessed by many individuals very effectively using martial arts to defend himself on several occasions.

Park's HKD teacher was Won Kwang-Wha who served as a bodyguard for high-ranking gov't officials and based on that experience favored practical techniques.

(Park's TKD instructor, Kong Suh Chong, had the reputation of practicing a VERY effective combat-style TKD, reportedly using it to aid escapes from communist forces, killing two captors with kicks)

Won's instructor was Choi (along with Choi's first student, Suh Bok Sub, who was also witnessed effectively using techniques in at least one real-life encounter)

My instructor was taught directly by Park. I know he has effectively used hapkido on more than one occasion but even while drinking around a campfire could never get play-by-play details: he would feel that was bragging and is genuinely too humble to recount those instances.

I have heard several stories from witnesses who have described their recollections of various hapkido black belts under Park and/or my instructor defending themselves.. very effectively.

For what its worth, I have successfully defended myself with hapkido.

So our techniques and training are not based on theory but on principles that have stood up to the ultimate "testing."



My question is: at what point do you accept that your instructors know what they are doing? Does each and every student, or each and every generation, have to "prove" techniques? And if someone fails does that necessarily mean the training/techniques are at fault? Maybe it means the practitioner failed.

No technique or method is a 100 percent effective; they just improve the odds more toward our favor.

While I think some might need a reality check, I don't see the need to re-invent the wheel or keep "testing" to see when water boils, so to speak.



Training beginners with compliant partners helps them learn the correct motions. Non-compliance comes later (at dan ranks).

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Kong soo do, great posts. I agree you have to train "live" to prove what works vs. what is shown just because it's part of the system. It is true that a fight is dirty and ugly. It does not look like an aiki/Hapkido demonstration. I also think you have to train compliantly at first to get the technique down. We train different types of techniques different times of year. We do more techniques off of dynamic attack vs static wrist or lapel grabs. Please don't get we wrong we do train defense off wrist and lapel grabs its just my belief one is attacked with someone entering in with a technique then some one grabbing a body part. I live in Daytona Beach, Florida and the temp reaches 97 degrees with 100% humidity in the summer. We usually dress in shorts and a tank top. We are usually sweaty so wrist breakaway's or someone grabbing your shirt is not usually an issue.

What kind of live training do you do in kong soo do? How do you make it realistic without hurting each other? How often does your dojang train live?

Thank you. We use scenario based training in as many different environments as possible;

• Dim light
• Close quarters (between cars, stairs, elevator, inside a vehicle etc)
• Different surfaces (grass, asphalt, concrete, sloping, slippery etc)
• Improvised weapons
• Options such as evasion, de-esculation etc

We often use normal street clothes. Protective equipment depending on the drill. Scenarios vary from no-force to force and are carried out to a logical conclusion. We've been known to video tape segments to review later as well. Somethings obviously can't be done full force or for full effect, but we try to get as reasonably close as safely possible to ingrain the response or possible responses.

My question is: at what point do you accept that your instructors know what they are doing?

That may depend upon the individual and their particular needs. Depending upon the needs of the student, they need to be comfortable with the level of experience of the instructor.

Does each and every student, or each and every generation, have to "prove" techniques? And if someone fails does that necessarily mean the training/techniques are at fault? Maybe it means the practitioner failed.

Valid questions. It is absolutely possible for an instructor, who is experienced in actual use of the martial art and who is a good teacher to pass this on to a student who fails when it counts. Does the student have the proper mindset? Does the student have the commitment to do whatever is necessary to survive the altercation? These are questions that can only be answered on an individual basis. This is the part the instructor has no control over.

Training beginners with compliant partners helps them learn the correct motions. Non-compliance comes later (at dan ranks).

I agree that a beginner needs a span of time for the learning curve. I don't agree with waiting till the Dan ranks however. We normally have students going strong, if not full tilt within the first week on the things learned up to that point. To be clear, they don't start off full bore, but we don't wait an extended period of time. My students cannot afford to wait for six months or a year or two years. They need something useable on day one. They may not go all out on day one on a particular skill set, but it is done to the point they could use it if needed on the way to the car after class.

 

[Doomx2001]

Thank you. We use scenario based training in as many different environments as possible;

• Dim light
• Close quarters (between cars, stairs, elevator, inside a vehicle etc)
• Different surfaces (grass, asphalt, concrete, sloping, slippery etc)
• Improvised weapons
• Options such as evasion, de-esculation etc

We often use normal street clothes. Protective equipment depending on the drill. Scenarios vary from no-force to force and are carried out to a logical conclusion. We've been known to video tape segments to review later as well. Somethings obviously can't be done full force or for full effect, but we try to get as reasonably close as safely possible to ingrain the response or possible responses.

Your description of your training has caused me to add Kong Soo Do as another martial art to check out/train in sometime in the future! Are there any videos online that reflect well the Kong Soo Do that you practice? Also what martial art styles may have influenced Kong Soo Do in your opinion?

 

[Doomx2001]

You are welcome to come to Chicago anytime you wish do try some training with us, you would be more than welcome!! Although I do have a few emerging clubs scattered across the US, one in Davenport IA, New Orleans, Philly, a training group of mine in Connecticut, and a few others....

How hard is it to start a Jung Ki kwan club? The reason I ask is because I've been interested Jung Ki Kwan for about 3 or 4 years now. Also thanks for the invite to train at your school, hopefully whenever I get a chance to take a trip to Chicago again, I will try to do that.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Your description of your training has caused me to add Kong Soo Do as another martial art to check out/train in sometime in the future! Are there any videos online that reflect well the Kong Soo Do that you practice? Also what martial art styles may have influenced Kong Soo Do in your opinion?

Kong Soo Do in-and-of-itself was just one of the names given to the karate that some of the TKD pioneers taught. They also used Kwon Bup, Tang Soo Do etc and then it all merged into Tae Kwon Do. That was then.

Kong Soo Do, as we use it, is a combination of several variables. Our brand of KSD is under the Mu Shin Kwan. It started with four of us quite a long time ago. Each of us had various arts in our background, with a TKD and/or Hapkido connection. The TKD wasn't the sport version, it was the 'old school' version similar to hard core karate (which one of us learned in Okinawa back in the 60's). Of the four of us, three of us have L.E. backgrounds. Over a period of years we blended our backgrounds, tossing out the fluff and keeping techniques/principles that flowed really well together in every area that we personally used; striking distance, grappling distance, locks, throws, sweeps, cavity pressing, misplacing bone/tendon, ground work etc. Our clients were mainly other L.E. who needed something usable on day one. The problem we encountered was that by calling it TKD it put a lot of people off. No disrespect to TKD intended, but in our area and particularly our circle of students, TKD is thought of as kiddie-karate and useless sport fluff. And to be fair, although old school TKD was a base art (along with Hapkido which two of us had Dan ranking in), what we taught really didn't look like what people expect of TKD. When I teach it looks more like Phillipino/Muay Thai than Korean Karate i.e. I'm the elbows and knee spike guy at striking distance with my specialty being locks/throws. So TKD was out as a label. So we eventually settled on Kong Soo Do as it was pleasantly generic enough to be pretty much anything we wanted since it simply translates over as Korean Karate or more specifically 'Empty Hand Way'.

So now we have a unified structure and teaching outline. The ranking structure was originally based on our TKD ranking and converted over to KSD and has progressed from there. It seemed be be something a few others were looking for so now we have schools in four states and Australia.

I had one teaching video but it was made years ago. I've been trying to update it for the IKSDA (International Kong Soo Do Association) and anyone else interested. Its been a challenge though trying to coordinate getting it done though. Getting schedules to jive isn't easy. When I do though I'll put it on the IKSDA website and probably post a link to it here on the board.

 

[iron_ox]

How hard is it to start a Jung Ki kwan club? The reason I ask ifocause I've been interested Jung Ki Kwan for about 3 or 4 years now. Also thanks for the invite to train at your school, hopefully whenever I get a chance to take a trip to Chicago again, I will try to do that.

Where are you located? It may not be as difficult as you think...
And for the record, in English Jungki is written together....as it is pronounced this way.
Let me know where you are and we can see if we can figure out an option that might work for you.

 

[iron_ox]

Let's get back on topic,

Choi Dojunim's Hapkido requires non-compliant training, and certainly not waiting until the dan levels, this would mean beginners really have no concept at all about the body mechanics of the art.

While I might understand demonstrating a technique in a compliant fashion for students to see, practice is done with a non-compliant approach because the techniques are designed to work that way. In fact it is the only way they work.

One method we use to get students used to faster non-compliant training is to have students use basic escapes while their partner is using random grabs with different energy. This works very well.

Another thing is to try and eliminate things like acrobatic falls as the result of rather useless wide arm throws. I have seen far too many schools using compliant huge circle throws as part of training, not just demos, this sends a message to students that such throws work...a bad precedent.

 

[zDom]

I have seen far too many schools using compliant huge circle throws as part of training, not just demos, this sends a message to students that such throws work...a bad precedent.

Are you suggesting that full circle throws (hip throw, one armed shoulder throw, body drop, etc.) DON'T work against a resisting opponent?




Second question,

Are you saying that you should teach the basic mechanics of throws and expect students to be able to do those throws against a resisting partner right away? After 10 repetitions? 100?

 

[iron_ox]

I am speaking more about the large arm circles associated with throws that try to use wrist leverage to affect a throw. Like grabbing the wrist and stepping under the arm then with a huge circle, the opponent is then wafted through the air. These are for kids demos, not real techniques. And hip throws, they cannot be pulled off against anyone awake.

As far as non-compliant training, we do it from the second time one does a technique. Hapkido does not function without resistance.

 

[Dwi Chugi]

I am speaking more about the large arm circles associated with throws that try to use wrist leverage to affect a throw. Like grabbing the wrist and stepping under the arm then with a huge circle, the opponent is then wafted through the air. These are for kids demos, not real techniques. And hip throws, they cannot be pulled off against anyone awake.

I have to respectfully disagree about with Mr. Sogor onhip throws not working on anyone awake. Ifwe are talking about the same hip throw, I have successfully pulled hip throwsoff against students at my dojang during our live training. Also, every two to four weeks I train at a BrazilianJiujutsu school about an hour and a half from where I live and I have pulledoff quite a few hip and shoulder throws there against their students. Some high ranking students some not as highranking. I went to a Krav Maga Seminar afew weeks ago and while being attacked in one of their live training session’sI pulled off a hip throw. In my humble opinion;if you disrupt the balance of your training partner, position your dan-jon (center)under their dan-jon and follow through with the throw they will go.

 

[iron_ox]

I have to respectfully disagree about with Mr. Sogor onhip throws not working on anyone awake. Ifwe are talking about the same hip throw, I have successfully pulled hip throwsoff against students at my dojang during our live training. Also, every two to four weeks I train at a BrazilianJiujutsu school about an hour and a half from where I live and I have pulledoff quite a few hip and shoulder throws there against their students. Some high ranking students some not as highranking. I went to a Krav Maga Seminar afew weeks ago and while being attacked in one of their live training session’sI pulled off a hip throw. In my humble opinion;if you disrupt the balance of your training partner, position your dan-jon (center)under their dan-jon and follow through with the throw they will go.

The person that made the comment said he had been in lots of fights...so i was speaking more of real fights, but even in training, a resisting opponent can easily stop a hip toss.

What do you mean about positioning your dan-jon?

 

[Doomx2001]

Another thing is to try and eliminate things like acrobatic falls as the result of rather useless wide arm throws. I have seen far too many schools using compliant huge circle throws as part of training, not just demos, this sends a message to students that such throws work...a bad precedent.

I think were on the same page as for when comes to acrobatic breakfalls, unless I read your post wrong. I notice many times in Hapkido demo's people are thrown in a most dramatic fashion. When I first started learning Hapkido, I couldn't understand that when I did something like a whipthrow (where the arm is as straight as you can get it, take their balance, and throw them forward of you) that, most of the time, they would land either flat on their face or on their knees. While I could most definately be doing that throw wrong still to this day, I feel that acrobatic breakfalls create a false sense of skill and ability to the person that is 'throwing' their partner.

I personally feel that we should practice breakfalls that reflect more of how a person is going to land on the street than a breakfall that is designed to make the instructor look like some sort of martial arts wizard. Usually when a whipthrow is done on me, I do more of a 'front breakfall', where to your head to the left or right, throw your hands up, and fall forward.
One finally thought on acrobatic breakfalls is that when it comes to non-compliant training, I notice most people who do these acrobatic breakfalls are actually throwing themselves which is actually a dis-service to their training partner. You see it all the time in most Aikido schools (or at least the ones that have Youtube videos'), and about in half of Hapkido schools. Sometimes it might be necessary to do an acrobatic breakfall to avoid injury to the joint that is being twisted or compressed by your partner, but for the most part I feel acrobatic breakfalls are abused for the purpose they were originally intended to be used for.

Also, I've always been taught that 'big circles' are really for begininers as it teaches them to use circles and as they advance in rank, they start using smaller circles. But, as well intended as that may be, for some students, it creates a bad habit that lasts all the way to black belt where they use these big circles to do their techniques. Although their might be a case made for some big circles to be used, for the most part, tight quick movements probably are the best way to go.

And to answer the question, I am from southeastern Kentucky.

 

[Dwi Chugi]

The person that made the comment said he had been in lots of fights...so i was speaking more of real fights, but even in training, a resisting opponent can easily stop a hip toss.

What do you mean about positioning your dan-jon?

I am meaning your center or where the knot of your belt is. I am on the taller side so to throw someone I really have to get low. Not the best throw for someone my size but I have drilled it a lot so it became second nature.

In a real fight? I am not sure I would go after a hip throw unless fate gave it to me. I believe the best self-defense is to have no enimies so I have not been in too many fights. The ones I was in, my Hapkido served me well.

I did do security work and was a body guard to some well known singers when I was younger. I had a team and rearly ever took on someone one on one. I have used goose neck locks and arm bars to get someone down with great success. If I was working and threw a hip throw, I would have been mostlikely fired and sued.

Anyways, I am enjoying being part of the post. Thanks for hearing out my thoughts.

 

[iron_ox]

I am meaning your center or where the knot of your belt is. I am on the taller side so to throw someone I really have to get low. Not the best throw for someone my size but I have drilled it a lot so it became second nature.

In a real fight? I am not sure I would go after a hip throw unless fate gave it to me. I believe the best self-defense is to have no enimies so I have not been in too many fights. The ones I was in, my Hapkido served me well.

I did do security work and was a body guard to some well known singers when I was younger. I had a team and rearly ever took on someone one on one. I have used goose neck locks and arm bars to get someone down with great success. If I was working and threw a hip throw, I would have been mostlikely fired and sued.

Anyways, I am enjoying being part of the post. Thanks for hearing out my thoughts.

Thank you. Just wanted to get your meaning specifically. While i know where the dan-jon is, I was thinking more of centering the hips, but I do see what you are trying top say in terms of center of balance.

 

[Dwi Chugi]

Thank you. Just wanted to get your meaning specifically. While i know where the dan-jon is, I was thinking more of centering the hips, but I do see what you are trying top say in terms of center of balance.

I figured you did and just wanted to be clear. When teaching, especially my teens, I try to get them to bend at the knees not the waiste. Anothers words, keep your shoulders, hips and knees in as much alignment as possible. If I ask them to get their hips lower they for some reason think to bend at the waiste. If I ask them to lower their belt knot and keep it forward, they seem to have a better time bending the knees and not the hips.

When teaching the hip or shoulder throw the belt knot is past his partners center or belt knot slightly.

What is your minimum age you instruct? This may be in a thread already or I should start a thread with this question. I use to teach no one under the age of 16 but I just lowered the age to 13 years old and so far it is working out great. I am not sure if I am going to lower my required age to earn a black belt yet though. My instructor would not let me start until I was 16 and I was already a black belt in Taekwondo.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I notice many times in Hapkido demo's people are thrown in a most dramatic fashion. When I first started learning Hapkido, I couldn't understand that when I did something like a whipthrow (where the arm is as straight as you can get it, take their balance, and throw them forward of you) that, most of the time, they would land either flat on their face or on their knees. While I could most definately be doing that throw wrong still to this day, I feel that acrobatic breakfalls create a false sense of skill and ability to the person that is 'throwing' their partner.

I personally feel that we should practice breakfalls that reflect more of how a person is going to land on the street than a breakfall that is designed to make the instructor look like some sort of martial arts wizard.

+1

The validity of break falls is always up for debate. As mentioned above, they often fall differently in a real altercation than what is demonstrated in many schools/DVD's. The effectiveness of a throw should depend upon what it actually does to an attacker rather than the acting ability of the person your throwing in the school. In otherwords, a lot of these 'masters' get some 'help' from the assistant. To be perfectly blunt, I think it is pretty dishonest and arrogant. As I mentioned above also, some of these 'masters' and 'grandmasters' that take on a dozen people in the school/DVD setting would get their butt handed to them by just one person in a real fight. That isn't painting with a broad brush and should be read to imply only those that embellish the art for the sake of flash.

Many throws, when done correctly and in reality will seriously hurt the attacker. Either they're going face first into the concrete or other people-unfriendly object or it is going to break the limb that is being used in the throw.

 

[zDom]

I have to respectfully disagree about with Mr. Sogor on hip throws not working on anyone awake.

I guess it depends on WHOSE hip throw.

If he believes his wouldn't work on anybody who is awake and/or resisting, I believe him.

But then, I have significantly more confidence in mine being effective (Moo Sul Kwan has always been known for its effective full-circle throws).

And the more a resisting person "starfishes" out, the more likely they are to come down on a limb in a way that causes significant injury. We don't expect them to fall pretty in combat like they do in training. We only fall like that in training so we can get back up and be thrown again.

 

[zDom]

The person that made the comment said he had been in lots of fights...so i was speaking more of real fights, but even in training, a resisting opponent can easily stop a hip toss.

And in doing so, set themselves up to be thrown even harder in a different direction.

That is the principle of being like water, isn't it? Find the path of least resistance. Let them decide which way they want to be thrown.

 

[zDom]

I figured you did and just wanted to be clear. When teaching, especially my teens, I try to get them to bend at the knees not the waiste. Anothers words, keep your shoulders, hips and knees in as much alignment as possible. If I ask them to get their hips lower they for some reason think to bend at the waiste. If I ask them to lower their belt knot and keep it forward, they seem to have a better time bending the knees and not the hips.

When teaching the hip or shoulder throw the belt knot is past his partners center or belt knot slightly.

Exactly: you have to get your hips lower than theirs and put them in a state of off-balance.

Learning effective throwing is difficult; is hard work. Most people aren't willing to do the hard work it takes to develop effective throwing and assume that because we ARE able to pull it off, that our partners must be making it easy for us.

Coming in low is hard. Timing things so you can take advantage of their off-balanced state is hard to develop, too.