Sparring and Hapkido?

[SmellyMonkey]

My school does not allow sparring. I asked one of the old timers why we do not spar, and I was told that 8-10 years ago sparring was allowed in our school. However, due to the numbers of people getting injured, it was stopped.

I asked my master whom I have private lessons with if she knew about hapkido sparring. She said that they did hapkido sparring in Korea for a short time during her training at Yong-In Univ. However, they too stopped sparring because of injuries.

I believe sparring is important. My wife (also a student of hapkido) and I have built a dojang in our home and invite fellow students to come over and spar. We don't have a lot of guidance as to rules we should follow, so we make up the rules before each sparring session. However, we need help.

Basically, the reason I want to spar is to practice against a non-compliant person, similar to what would happen "on the street". The sparring sessions we have had have really opened my eyes to the difficulty of winning a street fight, even with some martial arts training.

My question. Does anyone have experience hapkido sparring? How do you spar? What are allowable techniques? What protective gear do you wear? What level of training do you believe is required before a student begins sparring?

Thanks in advance.

 

[glad2bhere]

I don't know if this will be of any help but I throw it out for what its worth.

YMK Hapkido does not do sparring, as such. Rather, beginning with Brown Belt we do "free form". The idea is to interact spontaneously with one or more individuals such that one is able identify weaknesses or limitations in execution that simply don't come out in one-step (usually because the person is over-compliant), or in free-sparring as an individual often is caught-up in the activity and naturally falls back on his "bread&butter techniques" when pressed. Some grappling arts have "flow drills" and some have pre-determined two-man forms. Free form is a bit more spontaneous, but is still not 100% as there is simply too much potential for injury. If we were back a couple of centuries we probably wouldn't have to worry quite so much about getting up the next day for work, Ne? Hope this helps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Bruce-


Could you go into a bit more detail about free form and how I could use it as a training tool?

 

[Disco]

The mind set that most people equate to "sparring" is that akin to boxing. Two people sqaure off and attempt to score or in the case of Hapkido, control the other person. The main problem with this concept is that faulty habits begin to sneak into your background. Street self defense is predicated on stopping the attacker, post haste. Many hapkido techniques, while very practical, have to be supplemented by softening up techniques, i.e. strikes and or kicks. To go into a training hall setting and attempt to force certain techniques - using power against power, defeats the premise of Hapkido. As you stated, you want to try to use the techniques against a non-compliant person. You will find out real quick that you will resort to using power if you attempt to do the technique and it will turn into a tug of war with the stronger person prevailing and whatever technique you had in mind just went out the window.

As Bruce pointed out, with even his free form, there is potential for injury. Nothing is 100% guaranteed, but supplementing as above does increase your technique proficiency greatly.

 

[Incheon]

I am currently living in Korea and train 5 days a week in Hapkido. Because of my work schedule and being the only adult at the dojang, I basically have private lessons with the Kwanjangnim. We don't do any sparring in my classes, but every Friday he has the children's classes do Hapkido sparring. It looks pretty fun! It uses the WTF Taekwondo fighting rules in addition to throws and low spin-kicks. Joint-locks are not allowed. I train in Kang-Mu Kwan (formerly Mu-Mu Kwan), but I went to an open Hapkido tournament in Bucheon 2 weeks ago and they were using the same sparring rules as well.

-Wade Chilcoat

 

[glad2bhere]

Like anything else in the MA I can't tell you how to do it because the activity proceeds from a process and one day your are working with you fellow practitioners and it just "clicks". What I CAN do is outline the process and give you an idea of how I coach people into the activity.

1.) By the time students reach Brown Belt they have been doing Hapkido for about three or four years and have a pretty decent idea of some 25 favorite techniques which are their "bread&butter techniques". If your style of Hapkido does not have a kebonsu AKA set of core techniques you will have to go with those B&B techniques but the process works better with a kebonsu as everyone in the kwan knows those and usually responds uniformally to them. In YMK Hapkido GM Myung has a core of ten techniques from which everything else proceeds, so theres the start.

2.) Begin with a single partner, off the grab, this reduces the need to acquire proper combat distance from the start. Perform one of the kebonsu in response. This will become comfortable over a number of classes at which time you add another person 180 degrees behind you. Now deal with the two people-- one front and one back. When this is comfortable add another 90 degrees to one side and then another 90 degrees to the other side. You now have 4 people at the cardinal points of the compass grabbing you, in rotation at first, then spontaneously. In time you can work up to eight people. I find that more than that things get very cluttered and people are in each others' way---- and learning slows.

3.) Continue to respond to grabs, but gradually have random folks strike-- then kick. An order such as "# 3 and 5 attack with strikes; 1 & 6 attack with kicks". The trick is to go smoothly and learn to respond from the final position of the last technique so as to initiate the opening moves of the next technique wherever it comes from. There is no sense in telling you to go slowly with this process since its human nature to push hard for gratification. It will take one or two fat lips or wrenched arms before you find that optimum speed that you can work at without actually hurting your partners.

The there is the alternative: Flow Drills.

1.) Harder to do because the individuals need to apply the technique only to the point of failure at which time the partner counters with his technique again only to failure and then the other person responds.

2.) I recommend starting flow drills with pre-organized ones. Doshin So has a couple of nice grappling 2-man kata in his book, and I just discovered a really fine 2-man form in a Chinese Boxing book. Hope this is of some help.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Incheon]

oops! posted twice

 

[kwanjang]

Hap Ki Do sparring in North-America has been curtailed over the past few years due to insurance regulations. At West Point, we were still able to use throws, sweeps, etc, but I guess they don't worry too much about insurance regulations neh We recently attended the World Hap Ki Do Championships in Korea, so I know they still do it there. Not too many injuries, and only one or two knock outs (not as bad as the Arnold Classics were a few years back when they actually had several ambulances going and coming back for more

FWIW, I think this record can be improved upon if the official ceremonies were held on Friday, so the competitors would not have as long (some 12 hours) to wait in order to compete. People are just not sharp after such a long wait, and injuries will become more frequent.

 

[fringe_dweller]

If it isn't rude to ask, how long have you been training?

As Bruce mentioned, free form starts in his school at Brown Belt - roughly three or four years after you start training. After this long you would have learnt some control and doing the style of "sparring" that he has mentioned would be much less dangerous than just going at it six or twelve months after you start.

Cheers

Grant

 

[kwanjang]

I don't mind you asking; however, I am not sure who you are asking. I began training in martial arts in 1950, and I have continued training and teaching ever since. I carry my white belt with me wherever I go, and I am never too old to learn. I see you are from the land downunda. I did a seminar in Australia just last year. Loved the country and the work (training) habits of the students there. Reminded me of the way it was in most schools here just a few decades ago

 

[fringe_dweller]

Hi Rudy,

Sorry, I should have been more clear - I was asking the original poster. Heard a lot of rave reviews about your trip out here, I was away for the weekend so missed out but MG was extremely happy with how everything went.

Regards,


Grant

 

[SmellyMonkey]

I've only been training 1.5 years, 4-6 hours a week. And I admit, perhaps it is too soon for me to begin free form. I think flow drills are safer for me to do with my experience.

Still, even if I won't be using pure hapkido moves, I need to practice some strike sparring. Currently my training buddy and I strap on the headgear and grappling gloves and "box" (no kicking allowed). At least now I learn how to recover mentally and still fight after a good hard hit to the head. The first few times I got hit hard, my brain shut off and I wanted to stop fighting. Now I can shake it off and keep going. Don't know any other way to really prepare for how to take a hit and keep going, besides to actually take a hit and keep going!

My buddy and I just started practicing scenerios. I'm having a hard time when practicing scenerios such as an attacker running in, putting you in the clinch and then push/pulling you around. It's kind of a let down, because I thought I would be confident in that situation and react instinctivly. The compliant partner practice we do in school has not yet programmed my brain to do the stimulant/response automatically. Ah well, it will click someday.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello S.M.

I think maybe part of the issue is that you have not yet been taught the skills to deal with each and every situation. I disagree with your need to get hit and move through it though. The best defense against getting hit is not being there - try evasion first, then stand there and get whacked in the head. Also, maybe try simple covers of the head, they deflect most blows.
Finally, redirection is key to Hapkido, use whatever you are given and redirect the energy away from you, that is a good way to train the body to react, the brain should not react, it should think and respond in unison with the body.

I also wonder from your posts if the real keys of Hapkido are taught at you dojang - if you train where I think you do, then many key elements are not taught at all unfortunately.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[SmellyMonkey]

I disagree with your need to get hit and move through it though. The best defense against getting hit is not being there - try evasion first, then stand there and get whacked in the head. Also, maybe try simple covers of the head, they deflect most blows.
Finally, redirection is key to Hapkido, use whatever you are given and redirect the energy away from you, that is a good way to train the body to react, the brain should not react, it should think and respond in unison with the body.

I also wonder from your posts if the real keys of Hapkido are taught at you dojang - if you train where I think you do, then many key elements are not taught at all unfortunately.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

The point of my sparring outside of class was not simply to get hit in the head. I am trying to turn 3 broken noses into a positive experience! Trust me, once I learned how hard it was to try and block a flurry of hand-strikes, my avoidance and covering skills improved dramatically.



I have also learned the importance of redirection. I figured that out when I saw how well the inside and outside spin worked against my partner when he charged. I've been practicing those two techniques quite a bit.



Also, I am sure you can figure which school I go to. And I agree, it isn't the best. That is why I try to supplement my training the best that I can, which means building a dojang in my home and practicing things not taught in school.

I have been extremely fortunate for the last month to be given private lessons on weekends with a master who used to teach at our school. She is an amazing martial artist and fantastic teacher, and I know with her guidance I will improve. It has been hard, however. For the last couple months I have had little guidance and had to be self-reliant. Now that I have a master, I have to trust her 100%. Since my trust was broken by masters in the school losing their motivation to teach, to trust another master takes some effort. But it is getting easier every day I train under her.

 

[kwanjang]

Sorry Grant. Did not mean to intrude.

 

[fringe_dweller]

Rudy,

No intrusion at all

Grant

 

[iron_ox]

Also, I am sure you can figure which school I go to. And I agree, it isn't the best. That is why I try to supplement my training the best that I can, which means building a dojang in my home and practicing things not taught in school.

I have been extremely fortunate for the last month to be given private lessons on weekends with a master who used to teach at our school. She is an amazing martial artist and fantastic teacher, and I know with her guidance I will improve. It has been hard, however. For the last couple months I have had little guidance and had to be self-reliant. Now that I have a master, I have to trust her 100%. Since my trust was broken by masters in the school losing their motivation to teach, to trust another master takes some effort. But it is getting easier every day I train under her.[/QUOTE]

Hello S.M.,

OK, so why do you still train at a dojang that YOU think is sub-standard? What a waste of your time and money...

Why not focus all your efforts on the other instructor, or find a new school? If it is because you have a "contract" there, Illinois Law is very specific, if the contract is not being fulfilled, it can be voided. It sounds like the teachers at this place could care less about you, so why continue to pump them with money?

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Hello S.M.,

OK, so why do you still train at a dojang that YOU think is sub-standard? What a waste of your time and money...

Why not focus all your efforts on the other instructor, or find a new school? If it is because you have a "contract" there, Illinois Law is very specific, if the contract is not being fulfilled, it can be voided. It sounds like the teachers at this place could care less about you, so why continue to pump them with money?

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

I have 1.5 years left on my contract. While Illinois law may give one power to get out of a contract that is not being fulfilled, how could I prove to a judge that the contract is not being fulfilled? The contract is for 4 hours of martial arts training each week. The school is giving me 4 hours of martial arts training a week. While it may not be the quality that I wish for, it would be hard to prove to a judge that the quality is SO bad that it lets void the contract.

I am not without blame. I chose to sign a 3 year contract vs a 1 year contract due to the monthly savings. It was a poor choice on my part, but that is something I have to live and learn from.

I am just a beginner. Even low quality instruction helps me. Maybe in another 1.5 years, I will have outgrown the school. Hopefully at that time my weekend master will have a school of her own that I can go to.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello S.M.,

Sorry to hear you are stuck for another year and a half...I really hate when people that trust a school get ripped off. So for you, I extend an invitation to train at my dojang whenever you wish, at no charge until your contract at *y**'s joint is up.

4 hours of "not quite" Hapkido is not what you agreed to...so please visit me, no strings attached, and let's get some good training under your belt before you are jaded from Hapkido altogether - it would be my pleasure.

My site is listed in my profile. (Sorry, no advertising intended here).

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[kwanjang]

This rekindles my belief in martial arts. Seems there are still some folks out there who have Jung Shin. :asian: