Traditional Training Styles - importance of non-compliant training

[Doomx2001]

The point is that Choi . Dojunim's Hapkido is designed to be taught, and learned with non-compliant, or strong, opponents. The techniques are designed to be learned in as close to real world circumstances as possible.

The importance of this training ensures that even from early training, students have a good idea of real world conflicts.

Are there any videos online that illustrate that point? You guys might be talking about the same thing, then again, maybe different altogether. I think a video would help clarify a few things.

 

[WC_lun]

I don't think anyone is advocating that a beginning student comes in and is immediately exposed to fully resisting training partners. That silly as well as dangerous. It IS a process. However, in that process, if a person is not exposed to the "huh oh" moment of when something doesn't work they will be at a disadvantage if it happens. There is also no training tool that can simulate getting thrown, punched, kicked, or grappled by someone who is serious about doing those things to you. None. So eventually a student must experience what that is like to train to have confidence in his skills and the validity of what he has been taught.

It has been my experience that students lose all confidence in thier skills the first time they are involved with real violence. That isn't an attack on thier chosen system, but rather one of many real human responses to violence. For example, you do not want a student feeling what it is like to really be punched at for the first time if it is against someone that is really trying to do him violence. There are so many other things they must deal with at that moment in time no matter how advanced a martial artist they are; fear, pain, adrenaline, suprise, etc, not to mention the actual situational stuff. If a student has had serious punches directed them, it is something that they are used to and it becomes a non issue. They have seen it before and know they can address it. Then thier trained in reactions will kick in.

Fully resisting opponent's does NOT mean saying, "Hey Bill, grab my wrist as hard as you can and I'm gonna see if XXX technique works." That is unrealistic and being caught in the training matrix. The "uke" will already know what should be done and will set up roadblocks to keep that from happening before any contact has even happened. It doesn't neccesarily mean %100 force either. Sometimes a student is not ready for that kind of exchange. It means training in a manner that reflects reality as close as we can safely, with training partners that have that same goal. It is not something that should be applied until a student is skilled enough that a teacher has confidence he will not be hurt.

Remember, all martial arts is about applied violence, either to the student and/or by the student. One of any self defense teacher's goals should be to have his students as well prepared as possible for that eventuality. How can any student be prepared if thier first experience with what "applied violence" means is if they are attacked?

 

[Dwi Chugi]

So your example is your opponent tries to attack you and you respond to it. Do you get that from your sparring anyway?

When your opponent drags you down, you are training your "ground" skill. You are not training your "throwing" skill. You can't develop your throwing skill if your opponent refuses to stand on his feet. If your opponent stands on his feet, by definition, his is not "non-complient".

On the other hand, if you want to train your ground skill and when you use "jump guard", your opponent stands on his feet and holds your body up in the air, he is not helping you to train your ground skill either.

To me the word "non-compliant" is "don't give your opponent any chance". It's more than "resist". This is why I think the word "non-compliant" is not proper to use in "training".

If an attacker strikes at me, yes, I willrespond to it. Do I get that from sparring? Not as much as if we do line orcircle attacks where the other Hapkido-in attack me, the way I would mostlikely be attacked on the street. When I "spar" at my dojang, most ofthe people I spar with calculate their attacks. There are checks and such. Theattacks are not as much "one punch kills" or "wide swings"as a street fight might be.

When I am at the BJJ school, there are plenty of guys that know my throwingskills and know they want me on the ground so they will just sit down. We do 5minute rounds so I will just walk, just outside their reach, so they cannotdrag me down. Basically, I stand about three feet from them and since I canwalk faster than they can slide, it is not an issue. Well, not until theinstructor or another higher ranking belt reminds me that I am there to learngrappling. I usually rebuttal with "I have never seen a street fight startwith someone sitting down". Seriously though, if I was in a situation onthe street and the guy just sat down, I would just walk away.

As far as being dragged down, it has never happened to me. Because of myHapkido, my balance is hard to break. I usually can out step them and break whateverhold they have.

I do not use jump guard. I am 265 pounds and 6'5" tall. I have learned thejump guard but it is not something I would personally use on the street or onthe mat and unless the guy is my size or bigger I am not throwing it because hewill come crashing down on top of me. Also, I am a Hapkido-in first and formost. I would not use jump guard for the same reason I would not just punch orkick someone, it’s an attack.

For the most part, I agree with not giving your attacker a chance to strike orgrab. There are so many Hapkido schools that play the "grab my wrist, nomy other wrist" or "grab my lapel, no the other side". One thing we practice is don’t let them grabyour wrist or lapel in the first place. Then we will play the grab my wristgame just in case it does happen.
I hope I answered the questions you had. I sometimes ramble. LOL. If somethingis not clear I will be more than happy to try to clear it up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Old saying said, "You can teach someone some skill. You can also take his skill back." One of your students is good enough to use his skill to beat up other students. Oneday you find out that he is a bad person. You intend to take his skill back. How will you do that?

- You tell him that he is too good to train with other students. he needs to train direct with you (isolate him away from others by giving him some ego mind).
- When you spar with him, you use defense and counter to make all his skill fail (destroy his self-confidence).
- After a year that all his skill fails on you, you then tell him to go back to train with others (release his freedom).
- Since his skill has not worked for over a year, his skill now won't even work on other students.
- His skill may never work for the rest of his life.

This example point out that it's not a good idea to seriously destroy someone's self-confidence. The 'non-compliant training" could destroy "self-confidence" big time if "overused".

 

[iron_ox]

IN Hapkido, the techniques are designed to be taught using real grips from day one. It has nothing to do with losing self confidence, it has nothing to do with building up to it, the styles founder Choi Yong Sul Dojunim taught the techniques that same way, the art is meant to give people realism to a degree from day one.

There is a video demo under the video section here showing non-compliant - or at full grip...it is virtually impossible to tell from a video, but in technhical terms when the techniques are not applied with full resistance, they do not work well at all!!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is always another approach.

- Beat up all kids in grade school.
- Beat up all young boys in junior high.
- Beat up all young guys in senior high.

Now you have developed some dependable skills.

The strength cannot be developed overnight. It takes time. It may be better to use your hip throw on some 180 lb before you try it on some one with 250 lb weight.

 

[iron_ox]

I don't think anyone is advocating that a beginning student comes in and is immediately exposed to fully resisting training partners. That silly as well as dangerous. It IS a process. However, in that process, if a person is not exposed to the "huh oh" moment of when something doesn't work they will be at a disadvantage if it happens. There is also no training tool that can simulate getting thrown, punched, kicked, or grappled by someone who is serious about doing those things to you. None. So eventually a student must experience what that is like to train to have confidence in his skills and the validity of what he has been taught.

In Hapkido as taught by its Founder, we start from day one with full resistance...

It has been my experience that students lose all confidence in thier skills the first time they are involved with real violence. That isn't an attack on thier chosen system, but rather one of many real human responses to violence. For example, you do not want a student feeling what it is like to really be punched at for the first time if it is against someone that is really trying to do him violence. There are so many other things they must deal with at that moment in time no matter how advanced a martial artist they are; fear, pain, adrenaline, suprise, etc, not to mention the actual situational stuff. If a student has had serious punches directed them, it is something that they are used to and it becomes a non issue. They have seen it before and know they can address it. Then thier trained in reactions will kick in.

Agreed, this has much to do with how someone is trained...not system related

Fully resisting opponent's does NOT mean saying, "Hey Bill, grab my wrist as hard as you can and I'm gonna see if XXX technique works." That is unrealistic and being caught in the training matrix. The "uke" will already know what should be done and will set up roadblocks to keep that from happening before any contact has even happened. It doesn't neccesarily mean %100 force either. Sometimes a student is not ready for that kind of exchange. It means training in a manner that reflects reality as close as we can safely, with training partners that have that same goal. It is not something that should be applied until a student is skilled enough that a teacher has confidence he will not be hurt.

In Hapkido, it totally does....grab me as hjard as you can and I can make the material work...without effort...

Remember, all martial arts is about applied violence, either to the student and/or by the student. One of any self defense teacher's goals should be to have his students as well prepared as possible for that eventuality. How can any student be prepared if thier first experience with what "applied violence" means is if they are attacked?

Good point, but this is down to how someone is taught...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

grab me as hjard as you can and I can make the material work...without effort...

As long as you twist your arm against your opponent's thumb instead of against the other 4 fingers, his monster grip may not work that well. It's the correct technique (turn your hand in the right direction) that matter and not the amount of force (unless you try to develop grip strength in training).

IMO, to find the right key to open the right lock is much more important than to fight against extra force. Sometime the harder that you grab, the harder that your opponent may hurt your grib when he twists his arm in fast speed.

If your opponent's right hand grabs on your right wrist, You use your left hand to grab on his right forearm, You then drop your right elbow toward him downward against his thumb with fast speed along with your body weight. the harder that he holds on, the more it may hurt his right thumb. Sometime it's not a good idea to hold on too tight even in training.

 

[iron_ox]

As long as you twist your arm against your opponent's thumb instead of against the other 4 fingers, his monster grip may not work that well. It's the correct technique (turn your hand in the right direction) that matter and not the amount of force (unless you try to develop grip strength in training).

IMO, to find the right key to open the right lock is much more important than to fight against extra force. Sometime the harder that you grab, the harder that your opponent may hurt your grib when he twists his arm in fast speed.

If your opponent's right hand grabs on your right wrist, You use your left hand to grab on his right forearm, You then drop your right elbow toward him downward against his thumb with fast speed along with your body weight. the harder that he holds on, the more it may hurt his right thumb. Sometime it's not a good idea to hold on too tight even in training.

The point is that the techniques are designed to be done from these grabs.....and yes, one must learn when the better part of protecting your own hands. Good point.

 

[iron_ox]

As long as you twist your arm against your opponent's thumb instead of against the other 4 fingers, his monster grip may not work that well. It's the correct technique (turn your hand in the right direction) that matter and not the amount of force (unless you try to develop grip strength in training).

IMO, to find the right key to open the right lock is much more important than to fight against extra force. Sometime the harder that you grab, the harder that your opponent may hurt your grib when he twists his arm in fast speed.

If your opponent's right hand grabs on your right wrist, You use your left hand to grab on his right forearm, You then drop your right elbow toward him downward against his thumb with fast speed along with your body weight. the harder that he holds on, the more it may hurt his right thumb. Sometime it's not a good idea to hold on too tight even in training.

I should add that non-compliance comes with direction, and purpose - so the grabs are all different and should have a different defense...the reason to have a variety of techniques has greatly to do with the type of attack, what is its purpose, the direction of the energy, the type of grab.

Hope that helps.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you want tp apply your locking skill, it's better to grab your opponent first instead of to wait for your opponent to grab you. In combat, it's very unlikely that your opponent will grab you. But you can grab on your opponent anytime with any amount of force you want to. You may not be able to apply certain wrist locks on your opponent, but you can apply all your elbow locks and shoulder locks. This way, you don't have any dependency. You can apply your skill whenever you are ready. I'll call this more aggressive training method. It's better to ask a girl for a date than to wait for her to ask you for a date.

 

[iron_ox]

If you want tp apply your locking skill, it's better to grab your opponent first instead of to wait for your opponent to grab you. In combat, it's very unlikely that your opponent will grab you. But you can grab on your opponent anytime with any amount of force you want to. You may not be able to apply certain wrist locks on your opponent, but you can apply all your elbow locks and shoulder locks. This way, you don't have any dependency. You can apply your skill whenever you are ready. I'll call this more aggressive training method. It's better to ask a girl for a date than to wait for her to ask you for a date.

I'm not sure how this applies to using non-compliant training methods in Hapkido. Sounds like interesting drilling for techniques.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not sure how this applies to using non-compliant training methods in Hapkido. Sounds like interesting drilling for techniques.

If your opponent just

- sticks his arm out for you to grab it, there is no "non-compliant" there.
- moves around and won't let you to touch his arms. there is some "non-compliant" there.
- tries to knock your head off, there is maximum"non-compliant" there.

Your challenge will be "how to get that arm grab". Always assume that a locking has to start from "your opponent grabs on you first" may not be logical.

Examples such as: Right hand grab on your opponent's right wrist, left hand

- press on the back of his right palm with a wrist lock.
- bend his left elbow joint and take him down with an elbow lock.
- grab on his left elbow and take him down with a shoulder lock.
- ...

None of these locks requires your opponent has to grab on you to start with.

 

[iron_ox]

If your opponent just

- sticks his arm out for you to grab it, there is no "non-compliant" there.
- moves around and won't let you to touch his arms. there is some "non-compliant" there.
- tries to knock your head off, there is maximum"non-compliant" there.

Your challenge will be "how to get that arm grab". Always assume that a locking has to start from "your opponent grabs on you first" may not be logical.

Examples such as: Right hand grab on your opponent's right wrist, left hand

- press on the back of his right palm with a wrist lock.
- bend his left elbow joint and take him down with an elbow lock.
- grab on his left elbow and take him down with a shoulder lock.
- ...

None of these locks requires your opponent has to grab on you to start with.

Sir, I think you are either not understanding what is being discussed, or simply trying to derail the thread.

In Hapkido, we use grabs from a non-compliant training partner for the practice of technique. Does that make sense to you? It has nothing to do with the examples you have listed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In Hapkido, we use grabs from a non-compliant training partner for the practice of technique.

Could you give an example?

 

[iron_ox]

Right wrist being grabbed by training partners left hand. One of the most basic.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Right wrist being grabbed by training partners left hand. One of the most basic.

The question then, is what makes the training partner "non-compliant"?

Do you mean that the training partner just grabs the wrist and holds on tightly while holding the arm rigid? That might be "non-compliant" in a sense, but it doesn't have much in common with a real attack or the sorts of non-compliance that an adversary might present in a real attack.

Firstly, if someone grabs your wrist in a real attack, they're doing it for a reason - to pull you off balance or to put you in a hammerlock or to clear your hand out of the way while they deliver some other striking or grappling attack. All of those present a very different energy from grabbing and standing there rigidly.

Secondly, the non-compliance an attacker will give to your technique in real life is highly unlikely to consist of just holding on tight and squeezing. Real life non-compliance might consist of
a) hitting you while you're in the middle of your technique
b) yanking you off balance as you try to start your technique
c) readjusting his own stance and balance if your technique relies on pulling him off balance
d) readjusting his position if your technique relies on controlling the distance and angle between your bodies
e) releasing his grab if you start to put his limb at an unfavorable angle and immediately re-grabbing with the same hand or the other hand
f) using his free hand to block your free hand from aiding in your technique
g) using his free hand to break your grips as you try to wristlock his original attacking hand
h) using the arm he grabbed to pull you into a headlock and then run you headfirst into a wall
i) some combination of any or all of the above
j) etcetera

To be clear, I'm not advocating that your training partner do any of these while you work on drilling your technique. In order to build skill you need to drill for lots of reps and you won't get those if your partner is trying to counter you the whole way. I am saying that these are much more typical of real non-compliance by an actual adversary and that they present a very different sort of energy than someone who just grabs and stands there rigidly while holding on for dear life.

So, returning to my original question - if you say that you are training with a non-compliant partner, what exactly do you mean by "non-compliant"?

 

[iron_ox]

The question then, is what makes the training partner "non-compliant"?

Do you mean that the training partner just grabs the wrist and holds on tightly while holding the arm rigid? That might be "non-compliant" in a sense, but it doesn't have much in common with a real attack or the sorts of non-compliance that an adversary might present in a real attack.

Firstly, if someone grabs your wrist in a real attack, they're doing it for a reason - to pull you off balance or to put you in a hammerlock or to clear your hand out of the way while they deliver some other striking or grappling attack. All of those present a very different energy from grabbing and standing there rigidly.

Secondly, the non-compliance an attacker will give to your technique in real life is highly unlikely to consist of just holding on tight and squeezing. Real life non-compliance might consist of
a) hitting you while you're in the middle of your technique
b) yanking you off balance as you try to start your technique
c) readjusting his own stance and balance if your technique relies on pulling him off balance
d) readjusting his position if your technique relies on controlling the distance and angle between your bodies
e) releasing his grab if you start to put his limb at an unfavorable angle and immediately re-grabbing with the same hand or the other hand
f) using his free hand to block your free hand from aiding in your technique
g) using his free hand to break your grips as you try to wristlock his original attacking hand
h) using the arm he grabbed to pull you into a headlock and then run you headfirst into a wall
i) some combination of any or all of the above
j) etcetera

To be clear, I'm not advocating that your training partner do any of these while you work on drilling your technique. In order to build skill you need to drill for lots of reps and you won't get those if your partner is trying to counter you the whole way. I am saying that these are much more typical of real non-compliance by an actual adversary and that they present a very different sort of energy than someone who just grabs and stands there rigidly while holding on for dear life.

So, returning to my original question - if you say that you are training with a non-compliant partner, what exactly do you mean by "non-compliant"?

Yes, and yes, sometimes. Non-compliance, in that example I gave is holding tightly with strong grip and rigid arm. As one progresses, it is also included that one would see many of the things you describe as well in training, except the headlock into the wall...

So for starters, it is a strong grip, with a body position that gives direction and purpose to the grab. Then one can add elements of attempted off balancing, striking, whatever.

Good post Tony.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Right wrist being grabbed by training partners left hand. One of the most basic.

Can you start your training by using your right hand to grab on your opponent's left wrist instead?

- You can do this anytime you want to. The starting time is controlled by you and not by your opponent.
- You can grab him as hard as you want to.
- When you apply your locking skill (either wrist lock or elbow lock), your opponent can resist anyway he wants to. This will force you to change your locking from one to another.

Just image that you are a cop and try to take your opponent down. Your mind should be, "You don't grab me. I'll grab you."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

grabs the wrist and holds on tightly ...

Agree with you 100% there. If your opponent does this to you, he can only help you to develop strong grip. He is still a "compliant" opponent. Again, if you twist your right hand to against his thumb instead of his other 4 fingers, his strong grip will still be meaningless.