The value of forms

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by falcon, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    11,921
    Likes Received:
    2,076
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    None of them. Go into Members In motion forum and take a look at the couple forms I posted a while ago. Ours are long and grueling. 20 times without break? Nope.
     
  2. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,859
    Likes Received:
    1,953
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    It may have to do with the amount of kicks in the form.

    I can do this kind of form 20 times non-stop.





    I can't do this kind of form 20 times non-stop.



     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    11,921
    Likes Received:
    2,076
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Perhaps your forms can be done 20 Times without rest. Mine cannot.

    Our most basic and least complex form, Lok Lik Kuen, has no kicks in most of its versions. I practice four versions, one of which contains kicks with the punches. The form takes something like 2 1/2 - 3 minutes to practice from start to finish, depending on skill and conditioning. When I practice all four versions, I stop to catch my breath between sets. It takes me about a half hour to do all four of them. I cannot imagine doing that series of four, done five times over to make twenty. I further cannot imagine doing it all without pause.

    Now to imagine our more complex forms like Tiet Lien Kuen or Chuit Yap Bo Kuen, done 20 times without pause: not a chance.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,859
    Likes Received:
    1,953
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Do you have any of your form clip to share? I'm interested to see the way that your form is designed.

    IMO, for the amount of energy that one needs to spend,

    leading arm punch < back arm punch < kick < jumping kick

    I can drill this move 1,000 times non-stop within 45 minutes. I'm pretty sure that if I don't mind to get exhausted, I can drill this 2,000 times non-stop within 1 and 1/2 hour.

     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  5. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    11,921
    Likes Received:
    2,076
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Here are the specific forms I mentioned. I posted these in the Members in Motion section several months ago:

    Lok Lik Kuen
    White Crane beginner form, Lok Lik Kuen

    Chuit Yap Bo Kuen
    White Crane Chuit Yap Bo Kuen, beginner level form

    Tiet Lien Kuen
    White Crane beginner set, Tiet Lien Kuen

    These are all part of our beginner level curriculum.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019 at 9:07 AM
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    11,921
    Likes Received:
    2,076
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    This example is quite short. I agree that this one could be done 20 times without resting in between.
     
  7. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    29,823
    Likes Received:
    4,379
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    North American Tectonic Plate
    I use to do Piquan 100 times a day just for training xingyiquan; along with zuanquan, bengquan, paoquan, and hengquan

    Once did piquan for about a quarter to a half mile, not sure how many I did. I was going from one office to another through an elevated tunnel that was empty.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2019
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    126
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I guess he said this to everyone he trained, albeit different versions. As one who has been on the receiving end of one of his demos, I can agree that to feel is definitely to know.

    You got to call him "Ed"? My new partner, upon meeting him, greeted, "Hi, Ed." and Parker's eyes kind of narrowed and got wide at the same time, although there was a hint of a smile. He was an ex sheriff's deputy, so maybe it was a cop thing.

    .
     
  9. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    9,412
    Likes Received:
    5,963
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    Not at first, obviously. He used to come to New England a lot, used to stay with a friend of mine. Ed was always my go to guy when I had a question on Martial Ethics or history. Regardless of what that question might be, his advice always turned out to be spot on.

    I addressed him as Master Parker in front of students, or people I didn't know, just as I would for anyone else of that ilk as a matter of Martial respect and protocol. But if we were hanging, we were hanging. Jokes and Italian food, which he loved both of, were always a big thing. If you had a good joke, he was the best audience you could have, he had an infectious laugh.

    I have a short letter he wrote to my mother, telling her what a nice man Elvis Presley was. Mom was an old women at the time who loved Elvis like a school girl would, she cherished that letter until the day she died. He didn't have to take the time to do that, but he did.

    Master Parker was a really nice man.

    EdandChuck.jpg

    I had just shown him how an Italian ties his shoe. I'm Italian, so it's okay
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,859
    Likes Received:
    1,953
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Thanks for sharing your forms. I like your moves that in some striking, your front arm, body, back arm all form a perfect straight line. This kind of training doesn't exist in all MA styles.

    When I was young, I was the only student in my MA class that I tried to put 100% power into all my punch and kick. By doing that, I always felt tired even just after 1 form training. When I get older, I no longer think about my power. I just let my body to "flow".

    Yesterday I gave myself a test. I did the following form 20 times non-stop. When I did my form, my mind was like "long distance running". After 20 reps, my breathing was still normal and calm.



    I can never do the following form 20 times no-stop even when I was young. IMO, it has a lot to do with the form design (and amount of kicks in the form).

     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019 at 3:38 PM
  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    11,921
    Likes Received:
    2,076
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Thank you. We do work to make the extension a straight line from front to back. Sometimes more successful than others, but that is what we work for, while pushing the ground with the feet to drive the rotation.

    This is where I disagree with you when you say that forms are for teaching but not for training. I believe they are for training. If done with mindful rooting and power generation, then they are good practice and good training, over and over.

    The first form you show here, I agree, can be done many times without a break. The second one, I agree, cannot be done in that way. Too energetic, too long, too complex to do it that way. Once exhaustion sets in, the quality of the training just deteriorates to a point where it becomes worthless other than simply for cardio conditioning. But running can fulfill that need.

    So it depends on what one is practicing. Some things can be done with high repetition. Others cannot. I enjoy forms training. Our forms are long and energetic, and they give me good cardio, even when I don’t do many repetitions of each one.
     
  12. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,859
    Likes Received:
    1,953
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Let's take your form as an example. If I train your form, I'll consider sequence

    - 0.01 - 0.36 as 1st unit.
    - 0.38 - 1.00 as 2nd unit.

    I may drill unit 1 20 times. After that I may drill unit 2 20 times.

    In other words, I'll consider a form is constructed as many combos that are linked to as a sequence. I don't train the order of this combos. I only train about the content of the individual combo.

     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019 at 6:28 PM
  13. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    11,921
    Likes Received:
    2,076
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Well, as I feel a form is simply a training tool and not something of divine origins, I feel they can be broken apart and tinkered with and if you choose to focus on one segment for a lot of repetition, there is nothing wrong with that. With the structure of this particular form, changing the order of the sequence is easy to do and a viable training approach. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Ive even developed my own sequences which I’ve slipped into the form at various times. As I say, it’s a training tool. Use it to get some benefits. Change it up if it increases your benefits. It isn’t sacred as it currently exists.

    As the video shows, each segment is one trip down and back. My Sihing told me that in the early days of when Sifu was teaching, the original method was each segment was just one trip down. For the return trip, the next punch was done. They decided as a group to change it so that each punch was done down and back. Furthermore, this form has several variations; I practice four. One includes some kicks and the punches are done in clusters of three instead of one. Another steps through on the punch instead of punching with the rear hand. Another drops every step into a low forward sweep. Sifu told me that he developed his own version, which I have not seen yet. The one that I did in the video is the easiest and most straight-forward and least complex. That makes it very clear to me: forms are just training tools. They can be changed.
     
  14. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2019
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    126
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    You knew him better than I - Never saw that side of him, but then, I was a kid of 22 or there abouts. The closest I got was while we were off-roading in the hills with a couple of other guys, one of whom was a mutual business associate. We were acting a little "unconventional" as we were apt to do, and I wondered what Parker was thinking about us crazies as we were whooping it up, bouncing around on the fire roads, hoping he wasn't freaking out. I did get the impression he wasn't ready to die that day, but he had a stoic smile on his face, taking it all in. I'm pretty sure he enjoyed the surprise adventure.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Gweilo

    Gweilo Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2019
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    147
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Sorry it's been a while, perhaps you should start a thread to collect opinions, Imo, in the first video, the practioner leads with the shoulders, which is followed by the corresponding leg, left shoulder lead, followed by left leg etc, on several movements, the leg is almost stamped down, once the move starts, the muscle memory puts the lead knee at risk of a counter, due to the repetitive training, you could feint, but the shoulder gives away the intent.
     

Share This Page