The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

frank raud

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Gozo Shioda was uchi deshi( live in student) of Morehei Ushiba. Most of my(limited) experience with aikido is through Kevin Blok, who was uchi deshi under Shioda. Shioda was 5'1" or so, and about 110 lbs. Kevin Blok is easily 6'3" and 250lbs. I doubt he left Canada and spent years in Japan to train Aikido if his teacher couldn't make techniques work on him. But maybe Mr. Smithee's instructor was of a higher caliber than Gozo Shioda.
 

Flying Crane

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Gozo Shioda was uchi deshi( live in student) of Morehei Ushiba. Most of my(limited) experience with aikido is through Kevin Blok, who was uchi deshi under Shioda. Shioda was 5'1" or so, and about 110 lbs. Kevin Blok is easily 6'3" and 250lbs. I doubt he left Canada and spent years in Japan to train Aikido if his teacher couldn't make techniques work on him. But maybe Mr. Smithee's instructor was of a higher caliber than Gozo Shioda.
Maybe Mr. Smithee is a lesser caliber student than Kevin Blok.
 

Gerry Seymour

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The difference is that wrestlers also spar. Aikidoka don't spar in the main styles. They just keep on doing those various choreography ad infinitum
While that's common in Aikikai (not at all the case in Tomiki branch, which is a fairly big group).

And I'll remind you that "choreography" (drills) exist in all training approaches.

You are correct that Aikido too often omits sparring or Judo-style randori (what's called "randori" in Aikido is a different thing). Many schools only do the drills, and even leave out some of the drills they ought to have.
 

Gerry Seymour

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If I forced some chocolate ice cream down your throat, you would learn to like it. Clearly you are not eating your ice cream with enough raw aggression.
I'll keep that in mind next time I have some handy. I'll chew my way through the carton and destroy the ice cream.
 
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Alan Smithee

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While that's common in Aikikai (not at all the case in Tomiki branch, which is a fairly big group).

And I'll remind you that "choreography" (drills) exist in all training approaches.

You are correct that Aikido too often omits sparring or Judo-style randori (what's called "randori" in Aikido is a different thing). Many schools only do the drills, and even leave out some of the drills they ought to have.

Tomiki is not a "fairly big group" outside of the UK. I'll remind you that choreography is ALL that they do in the other styles.
 

Gerry Seymour

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sigh. It is true for main branch of Aikido and plenty of others as well, for EVERY school belonging to those affiliations
Absolute statements are nearly always false. To make that claim, you'd need to visit literally every school in the affiliations you refer to, for many classes. Clearly, that's not the case.

Obvious troll is obvious.
 
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Alan Smithee

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Gozo Shioda was uchi deshi( live in student) of Morehei Ushiba. Most of my(limited) experience with aikido is through Kevin Blok, who was uchi deshi under Shioda. Shioda was 5'1" or so, and about 110 lbs. Kevin Blok is easily 6'3" and 250lbs. I doubt he left Canada and spent years in Japan to train Aikido if his teacher couldn't make techniques work on him. But maybe Mr. Smithee's instructor was of a higher caliber than Gozo Shioda.

I could see other reasons for why someone would move to Japan.
 

Gerry Seymour

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You have no idea if the technique works if the person doesn't resist and instead follows a choreographed sequence of moves.

I think we all know why they don't allow resistance.
You don't seem to understand the difference between resisting a technique and general resistance. Or you're just trolling.
 
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Alan Smithee

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Absolute statements are nearly always false. To make that claim, you'd need to visit literally every school in the affiliations you refer to, for many classes. Clearly, that's not the case.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Why do you think they affiliate with different styles and organization if it's not uniform? Clearly that is the case. Show me an Akikai affiliation with real sparring. You don't know what you are talking about.
 

Gerry Seymour

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What I don't get is that Aikidokas still believe it to be a self defense martial art, even though there is no pressure testing and it's all choreographed. Just accept it for what it is.

Wushu guys tend to be open about the fact that it's a demonstration art and not self defense. Jet Li is certainly up front about that.

Aikidokas have more of an ego on the subject.
I know some Aikidoka who have that thought. Some of those pressure-test what they do (to varying degrees), while others do not. I also know quite a few Aikidoka who actually don't care whether what they do is effective for fighting or not. They like the movement and challenge of the skills.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I stated the parameters for when a joint lock might be successfully applied. Anything other than that, I'll have to see to believe. I'm not impressed with anecdotes from "believers".

What I did post was real sparring competition between two Aikido black belts unable to joint lock each other for an entire match, under Aikido rules!. Another one of those tournaments had a judo-esque throw pulled off.. As expected, The throws work, the joint locks generally do not. Certainly not when both fighters are of the same strength.
Applying a joint lock against someone who understands joint locks is a non-starter. They are smaller movements, so are easier to counter if you recognize what's coming. They're more likely to work on the ground, where some of the counters are nullified.
 

Gerry Seymour

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The grappling can only help you to develop your grip strength to a certain degree. IMO, the "equipment training" is a must.


I'm not saying additional strength training isn't useful. But it's not necessary (at least for some people) for a baseline of grip strength.
 
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Alan Smithee

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Drugs abusers do not spend all their time high. Most don't even spend a majority of their time high. Most drugs do not affect how one responds to pain, with PCP (which I rarely see people using any more) being the big exception.

The more you post, the less you seem to know about the subjects under discussion.

The initial grab is not painful.
 

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