The "Effectiveness Question" Again...

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Rusty B, Dec 24, 2019.

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  1. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    Yep. It's sort of what lots of folks do here.

    I can take your initial post, tweak it to add a bit of flavor, and then answer it, but I don't think you'll be any closer to a satisfying conclusion to the discussion.

    BTW, Merry Christmas everybody. Up on my PC with Christmas coffee in hand, awaiting the merry tinkling of little feet and my lady's sweet calls... Or not, LOL!

    Take Karate Man's resume as you've explained it above, really good 2nd dan, tournament circuit winner, all that. Add one word to the "type of tournament," ... KYOKUSHIN. Not the be-all, end-all of the concept, but it conveys a certain type of training for a certain type of tournament bout, i.e. no pad, full-contact. I'm sure most of you have watched youtube clips of the knockouts from those tournaments... which to me seems about right for that rule set.

    Yes, I get it that the street fight has no such rule set.

    Turn to Street Fighter (I can't stop myself from calling out that sound from the game AHRUKEN! ... stupid... sorry). If this guy, who you've indicated, "Has got dem hands..." so we'll have to say he's got "some" training of his own, even if it is only practical experience and figuring it out on a trial by fire basis, but maybe the guy next door did some boxing int he day and he's "showed him a few things," then here's where I am.

    They are Both trained martial artists. The one who has trained more effectively for the type of conflict they're about to get into is most likely going to win, provided that a chance misstep doesn't come into play (as it very often does. Mr. Murphy is a trickster).

    See? Unsatisfying.
     
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  2. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Merry Christmas to you and yours JP3
     
  3. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    It is very easy to define the terms and parameters in such a way as to favor one guy or the other. However, It does not eliminate the “what if” factor. Because in any authentic violent encounter, we cannot predict with certainty what will happen.

    So if you are looking for a certain answer, then it is easy to script the encounter in that particular direction.

    I think it’s good that those who have given you an answer have not allowed that kind of scripting to go unchallenged.
     
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  4. Luminouschrome

    Luminouschrome White Belt

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    Well asuming there's no giant size difference, I would think he wins
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    While that adds an element of uncertainty, it certainly doesn't lower the controls to a level of pure random chance. Just because it looks ugly, that doesn't mean their skill has no effect whatsoever.
     
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think you're confusing "best" with "having some effect". Let me explain. If this guy learns to punch - and I mean if that's ALL he learns to do - it gives him an incremental improvement in his chances. If he manages to land that punch, it has a better chance of ending the fight than he had before he learned to punch. Now add in some training on movement, protection, etc. Even if all of that was for point sparring, it will have some effect on his ability to defend himself. This is a continuum of nearly infinite variables we're talking about, not a binary outcome.
     
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  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    And I'd tend to bet on the trained person having a better chance of landing that first punch (assuming they're not sucker-punched).
     
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  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    A bit of research shows that he was trained by Bas Rutten in MMA and boxing instructor Randy Khatami.


    and a great many actually have the same questions and answers as this one :D It's subject that gets rehashed a lot. As you said 'again' in your title. :D
     
  9. Rusty B

    Rusty B Green Belt

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    Yeah, AFTER becoming a professional MMA fighter. When you've gone pro, having a trainer is par for the course. But as far as what he was doing on the streets in grainy fight videos BEFORE going pro... there's nothing on the internet saying that he was taught how to any of that in a gym or dojo. What you're looking at in those grainy street fight videos is pure street experience.

    Right, but every time I did a Google search of "Does x martial work on the streets," the answers always include explanations of weapons and multiple attackers.

    I'm trying to keep the focus on going up against an untrained, but exceptional, fighter.
     
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  10. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    In my calculus 1 class, a student raised her hand and said “Stupid question, but...” The professor cut her off and said “There are no stupid questions, only stupid people. What’s your question?”

    One of my favorite lines of all time.
     
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  11. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    but your insisting on a really narrow set of circumstances, to prove a point, which is far from unusual on here. exceptional ( you may need to define that) but untrained fighter are a considerable rarity, but then exceptional trained fighters are too, by definition,

    does an exceptional trained fighter beat an exceptional untrained fighter, probably, dependent on circumstances and what they are trained in and there size and fitness being comparable
     
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  12. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Yeah apparently people are to lazy to even google these days. The reason I didn't answer is because I haven't spoon fed anyone since my kids were small. Also I wasn't even referencing them I was referencing the ultimate fighter.. A tv show that's literally all about training martial arts.
     
  13. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Sooooo you think that he had his first professional fight THEN started to train AFTER the fight?....lol
     
  14. Rusty B

    Rusty B Green Belt

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    Sooooo you think dudes on the street are training?....lol
     
  15. Rusty B

    Rusty B Green Belt

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    No, when you're engaged in discourse and you make a statement, YOU are responsible for backing up YOUR statement. Not the guy you're talking to.
     
  16. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Lol are you over the age of 18 or 21? Is so then you're an adult you can do your own research
     
  17. Rusty B

    Rusty B Green Belt

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    If you're an adult, and you're unwilling or unable to back up what you say, then you should know to keep your trap shut.
     
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  18. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Why wouldn't they be? You seem to have this silly idea just because they get in street fights that means they don't train?....they can easily train boxing or whatever during the week then go out and get in street fights at the weekend. There was a guy in my area who was a Muay Thai who was known for it. Getting drunk and picking fights. The real world isn't a karate kid movie where all martial artists are saints and believe in peace and love
     
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  19. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    where's the rule that says I have to do that? Until you show me one I'll keep talking as much as I want and have a good time doing it
     
  20. Rusty B

    Rusty B Green Belt

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    LOL, you're clearly ignorant of what's going with most of these guys.

    As an FYI, I lived the first nine years of my life in public housing, and lived in neighborhoods where the majority received some form of public assistance until I joined the Navy at the age of 20.

    I can tell you for a fact that the majority of the dudes who are known to have "got dem hands" aren't training at boxing gym or any other formal setting for that matter.123
     
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