The "Effectiveness Question" Again...

[JP3]

Because I tried to present him as someone who, although lacking any real fighting experience, had done everything that was asked of him in his training and then some.

The motive behind this, of course, was to prevent whole bunch of "what if" questions and "that depends on" distractions. Clearly, that didn't work.

Yep. It's sort of what lots of folks do here.

I can take your initial post, tweak it to add a bit of flavor, and then answer it, but I don't think you'll be any closer to a satisfying conclusion to the discussion.

BTW, Merry Christmas everybody. Up on my PC with Christmas coffee in hand, awaiting the merry tinkling of little feet and my lady's sweet calls... Or not, LOL!

Take Karate Man's resume as you've explained it above, really good 2nd dan, tournament circuit winner, all that. Add one word to the "type of tournament," ... KYOKUSHIN. Not the be-all, end-all of the concept, but it conveys a certain type of training for a certain type of tournament bout, i.e. no pad, full-contact. I'm sure most of you have watched youtube clips of the knockouts from those tournaments... which to me seems about right for that rule set.

Yes, I get it that the street fight has no such rule set.

Turn to Street Fighter (I can't stop myself from calling out that sound from the game AHRUKEN! ... stupid... sorry). If this guy, who you've indicated, "Has got dem hands..." so we'll have to say he's got "some" training of his own, even if it is only practical experience and figuring it out on a trial by fire basis, but maybe the guy next door did some boxing int he day and he's "showed him a few things," then here's where I am.

They are Both trained martial artists. The one who has trained more effectively for the type of conflict they're about to get into is most likely going to win, provided that a chance misstep doesn't come into play (as it very often does. Mr. Murphy is a trickster).

See? Unsatisfying.

 

[dvcochran]

Yep. It's sort of what lots of folks do here.

I can take your initial post, tweak it to add a bit of flavor, and then answer it, but I don't think you'll be any closer to a satisfying conclusion to the discussion.

BTW, Merry Christmas everybody. Up on my PC with Christmas coffee in hand, awaiting the merry tinkling of little feet and my lady's sweet calls... Or not, LOL!

Take Karate Man's resume as you've explained it above, really good 2nd dan, tournament circuit winner, all that. Add one word to the "type of tournament," ... KYOKUSHIN. Not the be-all, end-all of the concept, but it conveys a certain type of training for a certain type of tournament bout, i.e. no pad, full-contact. I'm sure most of you have watched youtube clips of the knockouts from those tournaments... which to me seems about right for that rule set.

Yes, I get it that the street fight has no such rule set.

Turn to Street Fighter (I can't stop myself from calling out that sound from the game AHRUKEN! ... stupid... sorry). If this guy, who you've indicated, "Has got dem hands..." so we'll have to say he's got "some" training of his own, even if it is only practical experience and figuring it out on a trial by fire basis, but maybe the guy next door did some boxing int he day and he's "showed him a few things," then here's where I am.

They are Both trained martial artists. The one who has trained more effectively for the type of conflict they're about to get into is most likely going to win, provided that a chance misstep doesn't come into play (as it very often does. Mr. Murphy is a trickster).

See? Unsatisfying.

Merry Christmas to you and yours JP3

 

[Flying Crane]

Because I tried to present him as someone who, although lacking any real fighting experience, had done everything that was asked of him in his training and then some.

The motive behind this, of course, was to prevent whole bunch of "what if" questions and "that depends on" distractions. Clearly, that didn't work.

It is very easy to define the terms and parameters in such a way as to favor one guy or the other. However, It does not eliminate the “what if” factor. Because in any authentic violent encounter, we cannot predict with certainty what will happen.

So if you are looking for a certain answer, then it is easy to script the encounter in that particular direction.

I think it’s good that those who have given you an answer have not allowed that kind of scripting to go unchallenged.

 

[Luminouschrome]

Because I tried to present him as someone who, although lacking any real fighting experience, had done everything that was asked of him in his training and then some.

The motive behind this, of course, was to prevent whole bunch of "what if" questions and "that depends on" distractions. Clearly, that didn't work.

Well asuming there's no giant size difference, I would think he wins

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because in sports you play the game. You listen to the referee you stop when the time runs out you don't foul. You get a 1 minute rest period and the match is stopped if you get hurt to badly

In the real world you do what you want. You don't get a 5 minute rest period if you get kicked in the nuts or poked in the eye. You can't look to the ref to save you and call in a doctor to make sure you're okay. You're not fighting a man the same size as you. I've witnessed hundreds of street fights working on the nightclub doors and never do they like a Conor McGregor highlight reel or a Muhammad Ali match. Go look around online. Real fights don't look anything like sports

While that adds an element of uncertainty, it certainly doesn't lower the controls to a level of pure random chance. Just because it looks ugly, that doesn't mean their skill has no effect whatsoever.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good response. But there's something quite disturbing about it, and I'll explain. But let's changethings up a little bit.

In the scenario I presented, and in John Doe's case, we're talking about someone who has never been in a real fight before.

Let's talk about a scenario of someone who has. We'll call him Mike. Let's say that Mike wasa good kid growing up, and could probably count the number of real fights he's been in on his fingers. He was an average sized kid who could hold his own against other kids his own size, but was in serious trouble if he ever pissed off a jock.

In the case of John Doe and the hypothetical karateka I mentioned, they didn't know how to do something as simple as kick or punch before martial arts training, and now they do.

In Mike's case, he already had "something" before starting martial arts training. But that "something" isn't even close what the thug has by a long shot.

Does traditional karate put him over?

I think you're confusing "best" with "having some effect". Let me explain. If this guy learns to punch - and I mean if that's ALL he learns to do - it gives him an incremental improvement in his chances. If he manages to land that punch, it has a better chance of ending the fight than he had before he learned to punch. Now add in some training on movement, protection, etc. Even if all of that was for point sparring, it will have some effect on his ability to defend himself. This is a continuum of nearly infinite variables we're talking about, not a binary outcome.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I was a betting man I would go with who lands the first punch.

And I'd tend to bet on the trained person having a better chance of landing that first punch (assuming they're not sucker-punched).

 

[Tez3]

Okay....I mean you're wrong but okay yeah a pro boxer and pro Mma fighter never had a days training lol

A bit of research shows that he was trained by Bas Rutten in MMA and boxing instructor Randy Khatami.

This may come as a surprise to you, but there are thousands of other threads on MT if you don't like this one.

and a great many actually have the same questions and answers as this one It's subject that gets rehashed a lot. As you said 'again' in your title.

 

[Rusty B]

A bit of research shows that he was trained by Bas Rutten in MMA and boxing instructor Randy Khatami.

Yeah, AFTER becoming a professional MMA fighter. When you've gone pro, having a trainer is par for the course. But as far as what he was doing on the streets in grainy fight videos BEFORE going pro... there's nothing on the internet saying that he was taught how to any of that in a gym or dojo. What you're looking at in those grainy street fight videos is pure street experience.

and a great many actually have the same questions and answers as this one It's subject that gets rehashed a lot. As you said 'again' in your title.

Right, but every time I did a Google search of "Does x martial work on the streets," the answers always include explanations of weapons and multiple attackers.

I'm trying to keep the focus on going up against an untrained, but exceptional, fighter.

 

[JR 137]

Someone once said "there's no such thing as a stupid question"...

I am continually seeing them proved wrong.


I just made up two new superheroes:

Pudding Man and Captain Seatcushion.

Who would win?

In my calculus 1 class, a student raised her hand and said “Stupid question, but...” The professor cut her off and said “There are no stupid questions, only stupid people. What’s your question?”

One of my favorite lines of all time.

 

[jobo]

Yeah, AFTER becoming a professional MMA fighter. When you've gone pro, having a trainer is par for the course. But as far as what he was doing on the streets in grainy fight videos BEFORE going pro... there's nothing on the internet saying that he was taught how to any of that in a gym or dojo. What you're looking at in those grainy street fight videos is pure street experience.



Right, but every time I did a Google search of "Does x martial work on the streets," the answers always include explanations of weapons and multiple attackers.

I'm trying to keep the focus on going up against an untrained, but exceptional, fighter.

but your insisting on a really narrow set of circumstances, to prove a point, which is far from unusual on here. exceptional ( you may need to define that) but untrained fighter are a considerable rarity, but then exceptional trained fighters are too, by definition,

does an exceptional trained fighter beat an exceptional untrained fighter, probably, dependent on circumstances and what they are trained in and there size and fitness being comparable

 

[Headhunter]

A bit of research shows that he was trained by Bas Rutten in MMA and boxing instructor Randy Khatami.




and a great many actually have the same questions and answers as this one It's subject that gets rehashed a lot. As you said 'again' in your title.

Yeah apparently people are to lazy to even google these days. The reason I didn't answer is because I haven't spoon fed anyone since my kids were small. Also I wasn't even referencing them I was referencing the ultimate fighter.. A tv show that's literally all about training martial arts.

 

[Headhunter]

Yeah, AFTER becoming a professional MMA fighter. When you've gone pro, having a trainer is par for the course. But as far as what he was doing on the streets in grainy fight videos BEFORE going pro... there's nothing on the internet saying that he was taught how to any of that in a gym or dojo. What you're looking at in those grainy street fight videos is pure street experience.



Right, but every time I did a Google search of "Does x martial work on the streets," the answers always include explanations of weapons and multiple attackers.

I'm trying to keep the focus on going up against an untrained, but exceptional, fighter.

Sooooo you think that he had his first professional fight THEN started to train AFTER the fight?....lol

 

[Rusty B]

Sooooo you think that he had his first professional fight THEN started to train AFTER the fight?....lol

Sooooo you think dudes on the street are training?....lol

 

[Rusty B]

Yeah apparently people are to lazy to even google these days. The reason I didn't answer is because I haven't spoon fed anyone since my kids were small. Also I wasn't even referencing them I was referencing the ultimate fighter.. A tv show that's literally all about training martial arts.

No, when you're engaged in discourse and you make a statement, YOU are responsible for backing up YOUR statement. Not the guy you're talking to.

 

[Headhunter]

No, when you're engaged in discourse and you make a statement, YOU are responsible with backing up YOUR statement. Not the guy you're talking to.

Lol are you over the age of 18 or 21? Is so then you're an adult you can do your own research

 

[Rusty B]

Lol are you over the age of 18 or 21? Is so then you're an adult you can do your own research

If you're an adult, and you're unwilling or unable to back up what you say, then you should know to keep your trap shut.

 

[Headhunter]

Sooooo you think dudes on the street are training?....lol

Why wouldn't they be? You seem to have this silly idea just because they get in street fights that means they don't train?....they can easily train boxing or whatever during the week then go out and get in street fights at the weekend. There was a guy in my area who was a Muay Thai who was known for it. Getting drunk and picking fights. The real world isn't a karate kid movie where all martial artists are saints and believe in peace and love

 

[Headhunter]

If you're an adult, and you're unwilling or unable to back up what you say, then you should know to keep your trap shut.

where's the rule that says I have to do that? Until you show me one I'll keep talking as much as I want and have a good time doing it

 

[Rusty B]

Why wouldn't they be? You seem to have this silly idea just because they get in street fights that means they don't train?....they can easily train boxing or whatever during the week then go out and get in street fights at the weekend. There was a guy in my area who was a Muay Thai who was known for it. Getting drunk and picking fights. The real world isn't a karate kid movie where all martial artists are saints and believe in peace and love

LOL, you're clearly ignorant of what's going with most of these guys.

As an FYI, I lived the first nine years of my life in public housing, and lived in neighborhoods where the majority received some form of public assistance until I joined the Navy at the age of 20.

I can tell you for a fact that the majority of the dudes who are known to have "got dem hands" aren't training at boxing gym or any other formal setting for that matter.