The "Effectiveness Question" Again...

[Rusty B]

A couple prefaces:
- I'm a 40 year old man, and have nothing to prove by winning a "fair fight" with my hands. I do conceal carry, and in the event that I'm not armed or the situation doesn't warrant using a firearm, I can easily pick up the nearest heavy object and not feel like "p*ss*" for doing it.
- That said, of the reasons I chose to begin martial arts at my age, "self defense" is tertiary at best.
- Even though self-defense wasn't my primary reason for starting martial arts, it is ultimately what you're being taught to do. The mindset that I'm there to learn self-defense is kind of starting to creep in, because that's how the techniques are explained in class.

So here's the deal: I Googled this for days - How effective is karate in a street fight, if at all?

Of course, plenty of "what if scenarios" came into play - multiple attackers, knives, etc.

I want to ask something more direct:

Let's say you have a guy who is a 2nd Dan, who has never been in a real fight in his life. However, he has come out on top in every tournament - he's got the gold medals and the trophies to show for it.

However... he's walking down the sidewalk with his girlfriend, and an exceptionally fit thug attempts to shoot his shot with the girlfriend, and slaps the man when he protests.

This thug, while not formally trained in any martial art, is very well experienced in real fights and anyone in his neighborhood will tell you that he's "got them hands."

In this scenario, no one is armed with anything and no one is else going to jump in.

Who comes out on top?

 

[Headhunter]

Flip a coin

 

[pdg]

Flip a coin

Is that distraction technique?

Like, flip a coin and punch him while he's looking at it?

 

[Rusty B]

Flip a coin

Does this mean that each has a 50/50 chance? This answer sounds a little too diplomatic.

 

[Headhunter]

Does this mean that each has a 50/50 chance? This answer sounds a little too diplomatic.

No it's the truth. Fighting is pure luck especially a street fight. You could train for 50 years and someone with 0 training lands a good shot and you go down or go in a position you can't fight back in. Martial arts doesn't turn you into Rambo who can kill a whole army with no issues. Fighting is about who can land first. It's pure luck training or no training. Just because a black belt gets knocked out by someone with no training doesn't mean he's a rubbish martial artist it just means he got caught with a punch.

 

[Martial D]

A couple prefaces:
- I'm a 40 year old man, and have nothing to prove by winning a "fair fight" with my hands. I do conceal carry, and in the event that I'm not armed or the situation doesn't warrant using a firearm, I can easily pick up the nearest heavy object and not feel like "p*ss*" for doing it.
- That said, of the reasons I chose to begin martial arts at my age, "self defense" is tertiary at best.
- Even though self-defense wasn't my primary reason for starting martial arts, it is ultimately what you're being taught to do. The mindset that I'm there to learn self-defense is kind of starting to creep in, because that's how the techniques are explained in class.

So here's the deal: I Googled this for days - How effective is karate in a street fight, if at all?

Of course, plenty of "what if scenarios" came into play - multiple attackers, knives, etc.

I want to ask something more direct:

Let's say you have a guy who is a 2nd Dan, who has never been in a real fight in his life. However, he has come out on top in every tournament - he's got the gold medals and the trophies to show for it.

However... he's walking down the sidewalk with his girlfriend, and an exceptionally fit thug attempts to shoot his shot with the girlfriend, and slaps the man when he protests.

This thug, while not formally trained in any martial art, is very well experienced in real fights and anyone in his neighborhood will tell you that he's "got them hands."

In this scenario, no one is armed with anything and no one is else going to jump in.

Who comes out on top?

It's not 'is this style effective' it's 'is this style trained effectively.

Are the guys gearing up and sparring without choreography? Does this include the possibility of being taken down, and ways to deal with that?

Are there live drills?(ex you try to hit him, he tries to stop you, with real effort)

Can the instructor do what he is teaching in these scenarios?

If any of these answers is 'no', then they aren't training to fight.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Does this mean that each has a 50/50 chance? This answer sounds a little too diplomatic.

That might be the first time I've heard headhunter be accused of being too diplomatic
But what he said is basically right. There are too many unknowns involved, about the fights the "street" guy has been in, the quality/type of karate training the other guy has been in, and the luck involved with the actual fights. If I was a betting man, I wouldn't be betting either way on that fight, with just the info you gave.

 

[Martial D]

No it's the truth. Fighting is pure luck especially a street fight. You could train for 50 years and someone with 0 training lands a good shot and you go down or go in a position you can't fight back in. Martial arts doesn't turn you into Rambo who can kill a whole army with no issues. Fighting is about who can land first. It's pure luck training or no training. Just because a black belt gets knocked out by someone with no training doesn't mean he's a rubbish martial artist it just means he got caught with a punch.

Yes. Fighting is pure luck.

This is why we regularly see untrained people walking into MMA organizations and KOing the top fighters..
...50% of the time.

 

[CB Jones]

Martial arts are what you make of it. Regardless of what style or wherr you train.

And there is no such thing as a fair fight.

Show me the universal rule book on fighting and I might follow it....might.....OK, probably not.

 

[Rusty B]

It's not 'is this style effective' it's 'is this style trained effectively.

Are the guys gearing up and sparring without choreography? Does this include the possibility of being taken down, and ways to deal with that?

Are there live drills?(ex you try to hit him, he tries to stop you, with real effort)

Can the instructor do what he is teaching in these scenarios?

If any of these answers is 'no', then they aren't training to fight.

For the sake of argument, let's say yes to all of these. Let's say they do everything, just stopping short of any real full-contact matches (like in boxing).

 

[Rusty B]

Here's an example, albeit an extreme one: to my knowledge, Kimbo Slice never had any formal martial arts training. However, we've only seen professional mixed martial artist defeat him.

So the scenario in question involves someone who is similar to Kimbo Slice - only not so as extreme as to weigh so heavily in his favor against the karateka.

 

[Rusty B]

Martial arts are what you make of it. Regardless of what style or wherr you train.

And there is no such thing as a fair fight.

Show me the universal rule book on fighting and I might follow it....might.....OK, probably not.

When I say "fair fight," I mean one on one, both unarmed.

 

[CB Jones]

Let me give you a scenario....

John Doe is a 30 year old average size male who has never been in a real fight. He is walking down the street when a street thug who loves to fight decides to attack him.

Would John Doe be better off if:

A) He has had no MA training

B) He has MA training


Although you might not can handle the Kimbo Slice type fighter....with MA training you might fair a little better against him...you at least increase your chance some.

 

[Headhunter]

Yes. Fighting is pure luck.

This is why we regularly see untrained people walking into MMA organizations and KOing the top fighters..
...50% of the time.

I mean real fights. Not sports

 

[Headhunter]

Here's an example, albeit an extreme one: to my knowledge, Kimbo Slice never had any formal martial arts training. However, we've only seen professional mixed martial artist defeat him.

So the scenario in question involves someone who is similar to Kimbo Slice - only not so as extreme as to weigh so heavily in his favor against the karateka.

Wrong. Kimbo slice had martial arts training....he was literally on a reality show that involved him training martial arts and also wrong he lost to some out of shape cop

 

[Headhunter]

What really matters is this: who has the nicest looking gi

 

[Rusty B]

Wrong. Kimbo slice had martial arts training....he was literally on a reality show that involved him training martial arts and also wrong he lost to some out of shape cop

In what? Because I haven't seen a bio that mentioned it.

 

[drop bear]

No it's the truth. Fighting is pure luck especially a street fight. You could train for 50 years and someone with 0 training lands a good shot and you go down or go in a position you can't fight back in. Martial arts doesn't turn you into Rambo who can kill a whole army with no issues. Fighting is about who can land first. It's pure luck training or no training. Just because a black belt gets knocked out by someone with no training doesn't mean he's a rubbish martial artist it just means he got caught with a punch.

No it really isn't.

 

[Headhunter]

In what? Because I haven't seen a bio that mentioned it.

If you're talking about the tv show just look up kimbo you'll find it. For the loss just YouTube kimbo slice loses street fight

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

For the sake of argument, let's say yes to all of these. Let's say they do everything, just stopping short of any real full-contact matches (like in boxing).

Check out the show bully beatdown, assuming it's legitimate quality martial arts it should be similar (minus the grappling aspect since in general karate sucks at that).