The "Effectiveness Question" Again...

[Rusty B]

If you're talking about the tv show just look up kimbo you'll find it. For the loss just YouTube kimbo slice loses street fight

Or you could just answer the question.

 

[drop bear]

That might be the first time I've heard headhunter be accused of being too diplomatic
But what he said is basically right. There are too many unknowns involved, about the fights the "street" guy has been in, the quality/type of karate training the other guy has been in, and the luck involved with the actual fights. If I was a betting man, I wouldn't be betting either way on that fight, with just the info you gave.

I think people are blowing out the idea of uncertainty a bit.

If you can fight you will probably win more fights than if you can't.

If you are trained to fight you will probably be able to fight better than if you can't.

And street fights are not coin tosses.

 

[drop bear]

I mean real fights. Not sports

Why does the result become random in a real fight? So what changes?

Where is any evidence at all that a real fight is just a case of random chance?

 

[Headhunter]

Or you could just answer the question.

You're right my friend I could

 

[pdg]

Someone once said "there's no such thing as a stupid question"...

I am continually seeing them proved wrong.


I just made up two new superheroes:

Pudding Man and Captain Seatcushion.

Who would win?

 

[Headhunter]

Why does the result become random in a real fight? So what changes?

Where is any evidence at all that a real fight is just a case of random chance?

Because in sports you play the game. You listen to the referee you stop when the time runs out you don't foul. You get a 1 minute rest period and the match is stopped if you get hurt to badly

In the real world you do what you want. You don't get a 5 minute rest period if you get kicked in the nuts or poked in the eye. You can't look to the ref to save you and call in a doctor to make sure you're okay. You're not fighting a man the same size as you. I've witnessed hundreds of street fights working on the nightclub doors and never do they like a Conor McGregor highlight reel or a Muhammad Ali match. Go look around online. Real fights don't look anything like sports

 

[Rusty B]

You're right my friend I could

And since you won't come, we'll proceed with the discussion as if Kimbo Slice was not trained.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think people are blowing out the idea of uncertainty a bit.

If you can fight you will probably win more fights than if you can't.

If you are trained to fight you will probably be able to fight better than if you can't.

And street fights are not coin tosses.

The thing is we don't know the quality of the tourney karate guys training. It could be legitimate training and tournaments, or it could be a mcdojo with point tournaments with three people in the circuit, and the other two forty years older than him.

And the street guy could have a ton of experience. Or he could just be fighting a bunch of out of shape dudes that he hits with a brick from behind. Without knowing the quality of the dudes training, or the quality of the other dudes fighting experience, we don't know.

 

[Headhunter]

And since you won't come, we'll proceed with the discussion as if Kimbo Slice was not trained.

Okay....I mean you're wrong but okay yeah a pro boxer and pro Mma fighter never had a days training lol

 

[Rusty B]

Let me give you a scenario....

John Doe is a 30 year old average size male who has never been in a real fight. He is walking down the street when a street thug who loves to fight decides to attack him.

Would John Doe be better off if:

A) He has had no MA training

B) He has MA training


Although you might not can handle the Kimbo Slice type fighter....with MA training you might fair a little better against him...you at least increase your chance some.

Good response. But there's something quite disturbing about it, and I'll explain. But let's changethings up a little bit.

In the scenario I presented, and in John Doe's case, we're talking about someone who has never been in a real fight before.

Let's talk about a scenario of someone who has. We'll call him Mike. Let's say that Mike wasa good kid growing up, and could probably count the number of real fights he's been in on his fingers. He was an average sized kid who could hold his own against other kids his own size, but was in serious trouble if he ever pissed off a jock.

In the case of John Doe and the hypothetical karateka I mentioned, they didn't know how to do something as simple as kick or punch before martial arts training, and now they do.

In Mike's case, he already had "something" before starting martial arts training. But that "something" isn't even close what the thug has by a long shot.

Does traditional karate put him over?

 

[Rusty B]

Okay....I mean you're wrong but okay yeah a pro boxer and pro Mma fighter never had a days training lol

Until you refute what I'm saying, it's going to stand.

 

[Headhunter]

Until you refute what I'm saying, it's going to stand.

Okay lol really doesn't make any difference to me

 

[Headhunter]

Good response. But there's something quite disturbing about it, and I'll explain. But let's changethings up a little bit.

In the scenario I presented, and in John Doe's case, we're talking about someone who has never been in a real fight before.

Let's talk about a scenario of someone who has. We'll call him Mike. Let's say that Mike wasa good kid growing up, and could probably count the number of real fights he's been in on his fingers. He was an average sized kid who could hold his own against other kids his own size, but was in serious trouble if he ever pissed off a jock.

In the case of John Doe and the hypothetical karateka I mentioned, they didn't know how to do something as simple as kick or punch before martial arts training, and now they do.

In Mike's case, he already had "something" before starting martial arts training. But that "something" isn't even close what the thug has by a long shot.

Does traditional karate put him over?

Jeez this is all getting very over complicated. Why does this fake situation really matter? You can't predict a real fights outcome so how can we predict a fake fight lol? Seriously is there a reason you are asking this? Are you doubting your own training and looking for validation that what you train is legit?

 

[CB Jones]

Good response. But there's something quite disturbing about it, and I'll explain. But let's changethings up a little bit.

In the scenario I presented, and in John Doe's case, we're talking about someone who has never been in a real fight before.

Let's talk about a scenario of someone who has. We'll call him Mike. Let's say that Mike wasa good kid growing up, and could probably count the number of real fights he's been in on his fingers. He was an average sized kid who could hold his own against other kids his own size, but was in serious trouble if he ever pissed off a jock.

In the case of John Doe and the hypothetical karateka I mentioned, they didn't know how to do something as simple as kick or punch before martial arts training, and now they do.

In Mike's case, he already had "something" before starting martial arts training. But that "something" isn't even close what the thug has by a long shot.

Does traditional karate put him over?

Maybe... maybe not. Depends on how much Mike puts into training and the individual he is going against.

But does training Karate lessen his chances...I don't think so. He still has increased his odds.

 

[Rusty B]

Jeez this is all getting very over complicated. Why does this fake situation really matter? You can't predict a real fights outcome so how can we predict a fake fight lol? Seriously is there a reason you are asking this? Are you doubting your own training and looking for validation that what you train is legit?

This may come as a surprise to you, but there are thousands of other threads on MT if you don't like this one.

 

[Rusty B]

Okay lol really doesn't make any difference to me

Does this mean you have nothing else to add?

 

[drop bear]

The thing is we don't know the quality of the tourney karate guys training. It could be legitimate training and tournaments, or it could be a mcdojo with point tournaments with three people in the circuit, and the other two forty years older than him.

And the street guy could have a ton of experience. Or he could just be fighting a bunch of out of shape dudes that he hits with a brick from behind. Without knowing the quality of the dudes training, or the quality of the other dudes fighting experience, we don't know.

Ok. Then you take the spirit of the question and start putting conditions on it until you have some sort of sensible answer.

Rather than engaging in this self indulgent martial arts ineffable nonsense.

Which is one of the reasons so many people have such crap preparation for any sort of conflict.

 

[Rusty B]

Ok. Then you take the spirit of the question and start putting conditions on it until you have some sort of sensible answer.

Rather than engaging in this self indulgent martial arts ineffable nonsense.

Which is one of the reasons so many people have such crap preparation for any sort of conflict.

Usually, when they keep asking for more info like that, they have no intention of ever answering the question. That is, unless you give a piece of info that clearly puts one guy over the other.

 

[Headhunter]

Usually, when they keep asking for more info like that, they have no intention of ever answering the question.

Well when your question is this silly there really isn't an answer....basically your question is the same as: who'd win in a fight between Kung fu panda and master splinter from teenage mutant ninja turtles. This's basically what this question is

 

[drop bear]

Because in sports you play the game. You listen to the referee you stop when the time runs out you don't foul. You get a 1 minute rest period and the match is stopped if you get hurt to badly

In the real world you do what you want. You don't get a 5 minute rest period if you get kicked in the nuts or poked in the eye. You can't look to the ref to save you and call in a doctor to make sure you're okay. You're not fighting a man the same size as you. I've witnessed hundreds of street fights working on the nightclub doors and never do they like a Conor McGregor highlight reel or a Muhammad Ali match. Go look around online. Real fights don't look anything like sports

Real fights do look exactly like sports.

And there are many examples I could use to show this. So if I put two untrained guys in a sports fight it would look a little closer to the fights that you may have witnessed by untrained guys in a pub.

I could show videos of people who train grappling effectively grappling in a street fight.

And also people who train striking effectively striking in a street fight basically presenting a pretty persuasive argument that trained fighters employ exactly what is successful in a sports fight in a street fight.

Now you said basically a street fight is a coin toss.

But your differences between sports fights and street fights that you mentioned are too general to really be true.

So a referee for example won't really change the outcome of a fight under most circumstances.

Same with a minute break.

And even the same with fouls if both fighters have access to them.

Having a huge guy vs a small guy will. But then we would still see a consistent result and not a coin toss.

There are a whole bunch of self defence tropes that are demonstrably wrong. Or are logical fallacies.

Even the "I have seen hundreds of fights" fallacy doesn't really add up to an argument.

And why in these sorts of discussions while sounding nice are in reality everything that is wrong with a martial arts mindset.