The "Effectiveness Question" Again...

[Headhunter]

This may come as a surprise to you, but there are thousands of other threads on MT if you don't like this one.

So you don't fancy answering why you need to know this answer so bad? Because my first thought reading this question is that your starting to doubt what you're learning and looking for reassurance that what you're learning is effective. No shame in it plenty of people go through that stage in the early days. But these hypothetical questions really have no legit answer. It's all opinions and guess work. If I ask on here who's going to win in the next UFC event. That's guess work to because fighting has to many variables to predict. That's why it's called gambling...Because it's a gamble you never who'll win. So if we can't accurately predict between 2 real fighters how are we supposed to predict a winner between fake karate guy and fake street fighter?

 

[CB Jones]

Well when your question is this silly there really isn't an answer....basically your question is the same as: who'd win in a fight between Kung fu panda and master splinter from teenage mutant ninja turtles. This's basically what this question is

Po because....Ski-doosh.

 

[drop bear]

Usually, when they keep asking for more info like that, they have no intention of ever answering the question. That is, unless you give a piece of info that clearly puts one guy over the other.

Yeah. I gives you a general indication on the sort of critical thinking method they are going to use to base their experience on.

I mean yes your question needed work. But this is a forum we can ask a question get feed back then redefine the question untill we come up with a really cognizant thought on the matter.

But we kind of won't because that is not how a lot of martial arts operates. This is intentional to make a person who has little knowledge sound like he has more knowledge.

 

[Rusty B]

So you don't fancy answering why you need to know this answer so bad? Because my first thought reading this question is that your starting to doubt what you're learning and looking for reassurance that what you're learning is effective. No shame in it plenty of people go through that stage in the early days. But these hypothetical questions really have no legit answer. It's all opinions and guess work. If I ask on here who's going to win in the next UFC event. That's guess work to because fighting has to many variables to predict. That's why it's called gambling...Because it's a gamble you never who'll win. So if we can't accurately predict between 2 real fighters how are we supposed to predict a winner between fake karate guy and fake street fighter?

Does why I "need" to know the answer have any bearing on what the answer is going to be?

And did I ever say that I "need" to know the answer, let alone "so bad?"

I think that what I said in my OP should have clearly indicated that I don't need karate to work on the streets. I've got other things for that.

 

[drop bear]

So let's look at one example of a trained martial artist who fights random strangers for a living.

Bearing in mind people who live and work on outback farms are not generally soft stock.

 

[Headhunter]

Does why I "need" to know the answer have any bearing on what the answer is going to be?

And did I ever say that I "need" to know the answer, let alone "so bad?"

I think that what I said in my OP should have clearly indicated that I don't need karate to work on the streets. I've got other things for that.

Nope because as I've said there is no answer

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Ok. Then you take the spirit of the question and start putting conditions on it until you have some sort of sensible answer.

Rather than engaging in this self indulgent martial arts ineffable nonsense.

Which is one of the reasons so many people have such crap preparation for any sort of conflict.

Usually, when they keep asking for more info like that, they have no intention of ever answering the question. That is, unless you give a piece of info that clearly puts one guy over the other.

Nah. Those questions were actually important to my answer. Basically with both-if one is actively better than the other (legitimate good karate or fighting experience against strong/tough people), then that's where the win is. And I actually did give my answer with the reference to bully beatdown. Assuming its legitimate training, the martial artist should win. If you look up the show and watch a few episodes, you'll see why.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah. I gives you a general indication on the sort of critical thinking method they are going to use to base their experience on.

I mean yes your question needed work. But this is a forum we can ask a question get feed back then redefine the question untill we come up with a really cognizant thought on the matter.

But we kind of won't because that is not how a lot of martial arts operates. This is intentional to make a person who has little knowledge sound like he has more knowledge.

Working on the question to a working one was exactly what i was doing which you apparently took issue with. Nothing about trying to hide knowledge or pretending I have more knowledge than i do.

 

[drop bear]

Nah. Those questions were actually important to my answer. Basically with both-if one is actively better than the other (legitimate good karate or fighting experience against strong/tough people), then that's where the win is. And I actually did give my answer with the reference to bully beatdown. Assuming its legitimate training, the martial artist should win. If you look up the show and watch a few episodes, you'll see why.

What question was that?

"The thing is we don't know the quality of the tourney karate guys training. It could be legitimate training and tournaments, or it could be a mcdojo with point tournaments with three people in the circuit, and the other two forty years older than him.

And the street guy could have a ton of experience. Or he could just be fighting a bunch of out of shape dudes that he hits with a brick from behind. Without knowing the quality of the dudes training, or the quality of the other dudes fighting experience, we don't know."

Because that reads as a statement.

 

[drop bear]

Working on the question to a working one was exactly what i was doing which you apparently took issue with. Nothing about trying to hide knowledge or pretending I have more knowledge than i do.

Ok.

And how were you going about that?

 

[Rusty B]

So let's look at one example of a trained martial artist who fights random strangers for a living.

Bearing in mind people who live and work on outback farms are not generally soft stock.

The only caveat to this is that he has years of actual fighting experience. For all intents and purposes, he's basically an MMA fighter.

 

[drop bear]

The only caveat to this is that he has years of actual fighting experience. For all intents and purposes, he's basically an MMA fighter.

Correct. But we have started with a benchmark suggesting that it is possible with martial arts to basically handle your average Joe in a fight.

Then all we need is to kind of work out level of effort you are willing to invest vs level of effect you want.

 

[Martial D]

I mean real fights. Not sports

Ya. So a much lower level of skill..which is my point.

 

[dvcochran]

That might be the first time I've heard headhunter be accused of being too diplomatic
But what he said is basically right. There are too many unknowns involved, about the fights the "street" guy has been in, the quality/type of karate training the other guy has been in, and the luck involved with the actual fights. If I was a betting man, I wouldn't be betting either way on that fight, with just the info you gave.

If I was a betting man I would go with who lands the first punch.

 

[dvcochran]

A couple prefaces:
- I'm a 40 year old man, and have nothing to prove by winning a "fair fight" with my hands. I do conceal carry, and in the event that I'm not armed or the situation doesn't warrant using a firearm, I can easily pick up the nearest heavy object and not feel like "p*ss*" for doing it.
- That said, of the reasons I chose to begin martial arts at my age, "self defense" is tertiary at best.
- Even though self-defense wasn't my primary reason for starting martial arts, it is ultimately what you're being taught to do. The mindset that I'm there to learn self-defense is kind of starting to creep in, because that's how the techniques are explained in class.

So here's the deal: I Googled this for days - How effective is karate in a street fight, if at all?

Of course, plenty of "what if scenarios" came into play - multiple attackers, knives, etc.

I want to ask something more direct:

Let's say you have a guy who is a 2nd Dan, who has never been in a real fight in his life. However, he has come out on top in every tournament - he's got the gold medals and the trophies to show for it.

However... he's walking down the sidewalk with his girlfriend, and an exceptionally fit thug attempts to shoot his shot with the girlfriend, and slaps the man when he protests.

This thug, while not formally trained in any martial art, is very well experienced in real fights and anyone in his neighborhood will tell you that he's "got them hands."

In this scenario, no one is armed with anything and no one is else going to jump in.

Who comes out on top?

First, excellent work on the mental progression in your workouts.
You are correct that any MA class/school worth it salt is teaching self defense to at least some degree. Beyond that it is about 80% up to the practitioner what they grasp and get out of it.
It is a very broad reaching question to give any kind of answer of value to. My opinion is if the street guy is really experienced and gets a good first blow in they are going to win every time. If the MA person has a chance to counter and still has their wits about them, then it is more to do with their training, time training, how they are trained, and so on.
I feel a lot has to do with their own makeup as well. Some people are just 'tougher' than others, whether through upbringing, environment or genetics. In a good program some of this, but will all be factored out most often. Kind of like the kid who overcame being picked on and became the tough kid in school.

I grew up in the south. All my life our family has 'fought' for fun; it is just the way we are brought up. It usually starts out as harmless wrestling and then one side gets pissed and it escalates. It is never any kind of mortal danger but bruises are the norm. So I am used to 'fighting'. I have been in a lot of tournaments as well.
Several years ago I was in LA walking down Sunset strip. I was being the typical tourist taking in everything. Out of nowhere a guy came out of an alley and nailed me. I went down to one knee but not out. When I stood up the guy was running back down the alley. Laid my eye open enough to get 8 or 10 stitches and totally closed shut for a day or so. To this day I don't know if it was out of pure meanness or if he thought I would be knocked out and he was going to roll me.

I say all this to say it could go either way. I think it has a Lot to do with mentality and conditioning and less to do training.

Great post.

 

[Buka]

A couple prefaces:
- I'm a 40 year old man, and have nothing to prove by winning a "fair fight" with my hands. I do conceal carry, and in the event that I'm not armed or the situation doesn't warrant using a firearm, I can easily pick up the nearest heavy object and not feel like "p*ss*" for doing it.
- That said, of the reasons I chose to begin martial arts at my age, "self defense" is tertiary at best.
- Even though self-defense wasn't my primary reason for starting martial arts, it is ultimately what you're being taught to do. The mindset that I'm there to learn self-defense is kind of starting to creep in, because that's how the techniques are explained in class.

So here's the deal: I Googled this for days - How effective is karate in a street fight, if at all?

Of course, plenty of "what if scenarios" came into play - multiple attackers, knives, etc.

I want to ask something more direct:

Let's say you have a guy who is a 2nd Dan, who has never been in a real fight in his life. However, he has come out on top in every tournament - he's got the gold medals and the trophies to show for it.

However... he's walking down the sidewalk with his girlfriend, and an exceptionally fit thug attempts to shoot his shot with the girlfriend, and slaps the man when he protests.

This thug, while not formally trained in any martial art, is very well experienced in real fights and anyone in his neighborhood will tell you that he's "got them hands."

In this scenario, no one is armed with anything and no one is else going to jump in.

Who comes out on top?

A no brainer. The Karate guy comes out on top.

 

[dvcochran]

"Karate man bleeds on the inside!"

 

[Luminouschrome]

A couple prefaces:
- I'm a 40 year old man, and have nothing to prove by winning a "fair fight" with my hands. I do conceal carry, and in the event that I'm not armed or the situation doesn't warrant using a firearm, I can easily pick up the nearest heavy object and not feel like "p*ss*" for doing it.
- That said, of the reasons I chose to begin martial arts at my age, "self defense" is tertiary at best.
- Even though self-defense wasn't my primary reason for starting martial arts, it is ultimately what you're being taught to do. The mindset that I'm there to learn self-defense is kind of starting to creep in, because that's how the techniques are explained in class.

So here's the deal: I Googled this for days - How effective is karate in a street fight, if at all?

Of course, plenty of "what if scenarios" came into play - multiple attackers, knives, etc.

I want to ask something more direct:

Let's say you have a guy who is a 2nd Dan, who has never been in a real fight in his life. However, he has come out on top in every tournament - he's got the gold medals and the trophies to show for it.

However... he's walking down the sidewalk with his girlfriend, and an exceptionally fit thug attempts to shoot his shot with the girlfriend, and slaps the man when he protests.

This thug, while not formally trained in any martial art, is very well experienced in real fights and anyone in his neighborhood will tell you that he's "got them hands."

In this scenario, no one is armed with anything and no one is else going to jump in.

Who comes out on top?

Why do you ask about someone winning gold? That's less than 1% of the karate population and not representative even if he wins or not

 

[Rusty B]

Why do you ask about someone winning gold? That's less than 1% of the karate population and not representative even if he wins or not

Because I tried to present him as someone who, although lacking any real fighting experience, had done everything that was asked of him in his training and then some.

The motive behind this, of course, was to prevent whole bunch of "what if" questions and "that depends on" distractions. Clearly, that didn't work.

 

[jobo]

Because I tried to present him as someone who, although lacking any real fighting experience, had done everything that was asked of him in his training and then some.

The motive behind this, of course, was to prevent whole bunch of "what if" questions and "that depends on" distractions. Clearly, that didn't work.

thats because its a loaded question that goes straight to the heart of there own training effectiveness.

i look at it this way, 80% of the population are average or below, if your training makes you above average then you only have 20% of the population to worry about. if you suspect your not in the top 20% then you really have to consider if your training and i mean all aspects not just ma skills training is doing its job, if your not well in the top 50 % then your training looks no better than chance and yud get much the same results playing basket ball