The Blue Gi

[bignick]

Vern Borgen is the main instructor of the school...but 95% percent of my instruction comes from Jana Seaborn(she was the one i was referring to about national competition) and Timothy Cruff(who is also my jujitsu instrcctor)

you say competition is over emphasized and then find fault with Zen Judo for de-emphasizing it? We don't eliminate...we just keep it in that 3% role that you refer too...

also i've never heard an official protest from the Kodokan about the Olympics and their willing reluctance to participate in the games

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Vern Borgen is the main instructor of the school...but 95% percent of my instruction comes from Jana Seaborn(she was the one i was referring to about national competition) and Timothy Cruff(who is also my jujitsu instrcctor)

you say competition is over emphasized and then find fault with Zen Judo for de-emphasizing it? We don't eliminate...we just keep it in that 3% role that you refer too...

also i've never heard an official protest from the Kodokan about the Olympics and their willing reluctance to participate in the games

A little rocky with your reading skills. Yes I, and a lot of others, say that judo competition is way over-emphasized, and yes I do criticize Zen judo for de-emphasizing competition.

Yet you now claim that Zen judo keeps judo competition within the 3% ratio prescribed by Dr. Kano (not I), so that is not a de-emphasis. I thought you wrote in an earlier post that Zen judo does not emphasize competition? That must be my mistake.

The kodokan never officially protested the Olympics, just the blue gi. There was a huge rift between the Kodokan, AJJF, and the Olympic committee, IJF in 1997 about rule changes, including the blue gi and the Golden Score, which almost caused a walk-out by Japan. But, again, in recognition of Real Politik, they reconsidered their stand and continued competing in the Olympics, again, very reluctantly.

 

[bignick]

One of the reasons for founding Zen judo was that competition had become the focus of judo organization it broke off from...Zen Judo took the emphasis off competition and put back on the perfection of technique..that was the demphasis of shiai i was referring

Yet you now claim that Zen judo keeps judo competition within the 3% ratio prescribed by Dr. Kano (not I), so that is not a de-emphasis. I thought you wrote in an earlier post that Zen judo does not emphasize competition? That must be my mistake.

Your mistake?...not at all, that was you trying to twist my words to make it sound like i was contradicting myself...

Zen judo does not emphasize competition...If you're doing something 97% of the time and then you work on something else 3% of the time...which one are you emphasizing?

I'd like to get this thread back on-topic...your original post was why should we wear a blue gi? Why shouldn't we?

According to you

As I wrote earlier, its not just the blue gi, although that is a factor, but it is the attitude that adopted the baby blue costume in the first place that is the real threat to judo; the twisting and mangling of a martial art into a western sport whose only goal is to win medals and provide entertainment to ticket buying spectators. Dr. Kano warned against this several times. He distinguished the difference between jodan judo (as practiced in Japan) and godan judo (as practice in the sleazy Olympics).

and calling it a "horrendous abomination"....also after looking around a bit on the Kodokan website and the internet i couldn't find a single mention of protest from the Kodokan or another organization protesting the blue gi...

i did only spend about an hour looking...so i could have missed something...if i did...forgive...

i feel you have completely blown this out of proportion...you're giving great meaning as the symbol of the downfall of judo...

when it's just a simple way of keeping track of who's who in match

 

[Patrick Skerry]

One of the reasons for founding Zen judo was that competition had become the focus of judo organization it broke off from...Zen Judo took the emphasis off competition and put back on the perfection of technique..that was the demphasis of shiai i was referring


Your mistake?...not at all, that was you trying to twist my words to make it sound like i was contradicting myself...

Zen judo does not emphasize competition...If you're doing something 97% of the time and then you work on something else 3% of the time...which one are you emphasizing?

I'd like to get this thread back on-topic...your original post was why should we wear a blue gi? Why shouldn't we?

According to you


and calling it a "horrendous abomination"....also after looking around a bit on the Kodokan website and the internet i couldn't find a single mention of protest from the Kodokan or another organization protesting the blue gi...

i did only spend about an hour looking...so i could have missed something...if i did...forgive...

i feel you have completely blown this out of proportion...you're giving great meaning as the symbol of the downfall of judo...

when it's just a simple way of keeping track of who's who in match

Hi Rich,

Are you actually reading my posts? What 97% of something does judo emphasize? Again, the ratio as perscribed by Dr. Kano was: 80% randori, 17% kata; and 3% shiai. You can read about this in Donn Draeger's article: 'What is Rank?' at the excellent judoinfo site.

Also, if you want to find out the Kodokan's attitude toward the blue gi and all the IJF rule changes, contact the Kodokan directly. They will fill you in.

As to why we shouldn't wear the blue gi, I made myself clear in several past posts on this thread.

As for the blue gi being just a simple means of keeping track of who's who in a match, I've already pointed out that a red sash is a much simpler means than staining a beautiful white gi blue just for identification, or forcing a judoka to pay $190 to $300 for a blue monstrosity.

You still don't have an adequate argument for the blue gi. I feel the rationalization for the blue gi is ripping judo apart.

 

[bignick]

What 97% of something does judo emphasize? Again, the ratio as perscribed by Dr. Kano was: 80% randori, 17% kata; and 3% shiai.

add 80% + 17% = 97%

the blue gi is ripping judo apart

i think my points have been adequately made...this discussion is going nowhere...it was nice to have some action in the judo/jujitsu section again...but i'm gonna leave this thread alone unless something worthwhile comes up

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Any tinkering with the genius Dr. Kano's creation is simply not judo

I feel the rationalization for the blue gi is ripping judo apart.

I'm glad you're so passionate about your martial art. I still don't understand why the color of a gi will destroy judo competitions. Is it that a tradition has been altered? Or you just think the light blue gi is effeminate? Either way, it seems to me you can play by the rules in competition, or choose not to compete. The freedom is yours.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I'm glad you're so passionate about your martial art. I still don't understand why the color of a gi will destroy judo competitions. Is it that a tradition has been altered? Or you just think the light blue gi is effeminate? Either way, it seems to me you can play by the rules in competition, or choose not to compete. The freedom is yours.

Hi Feisty,

Its not so much passion as it is trying to resolve an issue. As I mentioned in earlier posts, it is not so much the blue gi, although that is a factor, it is the rationalization for the blue gi by the Olympic commttee and the International Judo Federation which is hurting judo.

The choices have all been removed, if I don't want to work out in a specific gym, no problem, I can go to a different gym. Not so with judo, the options have been removed. It I don't want to wear a blue gi, that means I cannot compete anywhere, my options have been removed by a judo organization without my input or vote, or any other judo player for that matter. You either obey without question, or you are ostracized from all judo. That hurts all of judo.

Also, the sportification of a martial art is ruinous, like smashing a round peg into a square hole, ignoring the mutilation taking place, and then saying SEE IT FITS!

I'm not going to walk away from judo, I like it too much. But I was hoping to examine arguments for or against the blue gi in Judo.

 

[auxprix]

I told a sensei at a prospective judo club I wanted to join that I have no intention of wearing a blue gi, and I received a long hard stare in return. But judo is not the military and I don't have to wear a blue gi. If I am forced, I will get a lawyer and sue for discrimination - it might set a precedent.

What if the National Football League approved pink tutu's as a required uniform, and a professional football player refused to wear it - would he be wrong? I feel the blue gi is equally ridiculous as a pink tutu.

An organization harboring similar views is the KANO SOCIETY, at:
http://www.kanosociety.org so I am not totally alone in my opinion.

Thanks.

I don't blame the sensei for his reaction. I would do the same thing if somebody protested something so petty.

I see your point, and it for the most part makes sense. As I understand it, you feel that judo is moving away from its roots. You want the shiai rules to relax so that there is a less forceful approach to how matches are fought, which better reflects Judo as a Matial Art. You hope to conserve the old ways and not let Judo 'dematerialize' into a sport. I have absolutely no problem with this argument, and I can appreciate your passion on the issue.

But, come on...Pick your battles, man! Not every change is bad. I don't see the harm in me, or the refs, being able to more easily distinguish between the competitors with the use of the blue gi. In my opinion, the blue gi is not something that kano would have resisted. Even during his life, Judo was constantly changing. Techniques were added, modified, and dropped. Rules and strategies changed dramatically. The gi wasn't even invented untill several years after Judo's inception.

Here's how I see it. What is seen in the olympics is Judo the Sport. There is also an art to Judo that you don't see in the competitions, and that can be learned in the Dojo. Not all Dojo's concentrate on it, so it's up to the individual to pick a balance that fits them best.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I don't blame the sensei for his reaction. I would do the same thing if somebody protested something so petty.

I see your point, and it for the most part makes sense. As I understand it, you feel that judo is moving away from its roots. You want the shiai rules to relax so that there is a less forceful approach to how matches are fought, which better reflects Judo as a Matial Art. You hope to conserve the old ways and not let Judo 'dematerialize' into a sport. I have absolutely no problem with this argument, and I can appreciate your passion on the issue.

But, come on...Pick your battles, man! Not every change is bad. I don't see the harm in me, or the refs, being able to more easily distinguish between the competitors with the use of the blue gi. In my opinion, the blue gi is not something that kano would have resisted. Even during his life, Judo was constantly changing. Techniques were added, modified, and dropped. Rules and strategies changed dramatically. The gi wasn't even invented untill several years after Judo's inception.

Here's how I see it. What is seen in the olympics is Judo the Sport. There is also an art to Judo that you don't see in the competitions, and that can be learned in the Dojo. Not all Dojo's concentrate on it, so it's up to the individual to pick a balance that fits them best.

Hello Auxprix:

Obviously refusing to wear a blue gi is not so petty, since the Japanese also refuse to wear it at any judo shiai in Japan. You must start somewhere if there is going to be positive change.

Not all innovation is good, and not all change is for the better, and the Kodokan and the All Japan Judo Association is very aware of that in judo.

Dr. Kano definately would have resisted the blue gi, which is why he did not have multi-colored gi's in the first place.

But yes, I do feel judo is moving away from its roots, and so do a lot of others; see http://kanosociety.org to read more about it.

Judo is being twisted and mutilated into something that is not-judo, and the blue gi is the slippery slope, the camel's nose peeking into the tent sort-to-speak. So we must take a stand somewhere, and by simply refusing to wear that ridiculous blue suit is a nice quiet and gentle way to start.

 

[bignick]

Not all innovation is good, and not all change is for the better

this is true...but refusing to adapt and evolve can lead to extinction...

Dr. Kano definately would have resisted the blue gi

i don't feel anyone on this board, or in the world abroad, has the ability to speak on behalf of Kano Sensei and what he would have wanted...I believe that he would have been disappointed with some the directions judo is heading(here i am not speaking on behalf of him, but referring to his own thoughts on the way judo was being practiced while he was still alive, and how judo has continued with some of those trends)...but who knows what he would have thought of the blue gi...not you, certainly not myself...

 

[Baytor]

I'm trying to understand this...forgive me if I'm off base here, CSPAN is also on and actually interesting...

You don't like the blue gi because it is encouraging the "sportification" of Judo. Yet part of your contention is that by not wearing it...you can't compete in the sport?

You are against change in the system of Judo. I am going to assume by your name that you are not Japanese. Isn't teaching the martial arts to foreigners something that only became really accepted after WW2?

Respectfully,

 

[Hollywood1340]

Okay, I know I said I'd stop posting but this is too entertaining to NOT post. Also I want to be a BB here at MT, so what's a guy to do? The fact is I've been missing out. There is 19yo out there who knows what Kano would do, knows more about Judo then just about anyone, and apparently has done in depth research to reach is conclusions. I spent all this time under a third generation forth degree black belt for nothing! Have spent time on the mats learning to move for zilch. Wow, I can say without sarcasm I am impressed. Ya got guts, I'll give you that. But that's all. And out of curiosity Patrick, what is your judo education?

 

[Robert Carver]

Mr. Maxwell:

Patrick is not likely really Patrick, nor is he probably 19. He is an Agenda Troll that originally signed up over at BudoSeek!, under the username Jack Stay. He listed his age at 47 and his martial arts as Go-Ju Ryu, Aikido, Judo. When things did not go his way, he requested that his account be closed. I complied with his request by making his account "inactive". If you would do a search on "Jack Stay" at BudoSeek!, you will notice that his posts and threads are almost identical to the posts here. He will argue that he was banned because of his anti-BJJ remarks, but I do want to emphasize that his account was closed at HIS request. He made that claim in the Rickson Gracie thread here on MT in the Grappling forum. You will see my reply there.

After Jack's account was closed at BudoSeek! at his request, he again signed up under two new usernames. The first was Keelhaulhim and the other was Patrick Skerry. Both of these accounts were banned because they not only violate our policy on duplicate accounts, but also the our "real name" policy.

The reason I am letting you know this is that because of his deceptive nature, it is doubtful that you will receive an truthful answer to your question about his training background.

 

[bignick]

i figured that early on...especially after i read you post on the gracie thread...i read it before i ever started posting in these threads...but sometimes a "polite" discussion can be entertaining...and like Hollywood said...i've got a lot of posts out of him

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I'm trying to understand this...forgive me if I'm off base here, CSPAN is also on and actually interesting...

You don't like the blue gi because it is encouraging the "sportification" of Judo. Yet part of your contention is that by not wearing it...you can't compete in the sport?

You are against change in the system of Judo. I am going to assume by your name that you are not Japanese. Isn't teaching the martial arts to foreigners something that only became really accepted after WW2?

Respectfully,

Hello IamBaytor,

You're not off base, in fact I appreciate the direct hard question because it facilitates a direct hard response - which leads to the truth.

The Sportification of Judo involves the International Judo Federation modifying the rules of shiai in 1997 to encourage: 1) Attacking Judo, 2) the blue gi to make the referee's job easier, 3) the 'Golden Score' which only encourages more sloppy judo, and, believe it or not, 4) Sports betting. The point of attacking judo is all for the sake of providing entertainment to the ticket buying spectator, not the improvement of judo. This is the prostitution of a martial art. The blue gi represents all the above in my opinion.

Also, now major judo tournaments, such as the 'Nationals' will not allow you to compete unless you have a blue gi! So much for freedom and democracy.

Never have I ever gone to a shiai with the thought of providing entertainment to some spectator! Shiai is technique testing and provides proof of ability, which should reflect in your rank. Not sheer competition to acquire trophies.

The several judo matches on video I observed of the 2004 Olympics in Athens is a case in point, I thought it was a lot of sloppy judo. And the 'sports' announcers all commented on all the empty seats and lack of spectators at the games. TOO BAD!!!

This sportification of judo is leading, as Dr. Kano warned in 1932, to the professionalism of judo (multi-colored sequenced gi's, short-term committments, gambling, and no "mutual benefit & welfare").

So I believe a drastic, but simple, step is required: just don't wear the blue gi!

p.s. Teaching foreigners the martial arts in Japan went back to the 1880's.

 

[Baytor]

Here's what I'm getting from you:
Blue gi's are the bad color because 1) causes the judeges to be lazy 2) it's more entertaining for the masses, and Judo should be about technique not entertainment.

While I can sympathize that you would have to buy another gi, big effing deal. Do you enjoy Judo? Then train. What you wear is irrelevent. If you really want to go to the tournaments, shell out a few bucks. If it is as important to you as you say, then what is more important...the few bucks for a blue gi, or the opportunity to train.

 

[Hollywood1340]

ROTFLMAO! And he complains about "Entertainment Judo". This is the best judo entertainment I've had in a looong time.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Here's what I'm getting from you:
Blue gi's are the bad color because 1) causes the judeges to be lazy 2) it's more entertaining for the masses, and Judo should be about technique not entertainment.

While I can sympathize that you would have to buy another gi, big effing deal. Do you enjoy Judo? Then train. What you wear is irrelevent. If you really want to go to the tournaments, shell out a few bucks. If it is as important to you as you say, then what is more important...the few bucks for a blue gi, or the opportunity to train.

Hi IamBaytor,

As far as any sport goes, such as baseball or hockey, the color of the uniform means nothing (except for pink maybe): but judo is not a sport, it is a martial art. If Dr. Kano or the Kodokan wanted to dye the judogi blue, they could have done it a long time ago.

And yes, a judo shiai has absolutely zilch to do with entertainment.

But please read the article: 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' by Jigoro Kano (http://www.judoinfo.com/kano.htm) and 'On the Importance of Ukemi' by Jigoro Kano (http://www.judoinfo.com/ukemi.htm), before you feign an understanding of judo and dismiss the potential judo disaster the blue gi represents.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Hi IamBaytor,
But please read the article: 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' by Jigoro Kano (http://www.judoinfo.com/kano.htm) and 'On the Importance of Ukemi' by Jigoro Kano (http://www.judoinfo.com/ukemi.htm), before you feign an understanding of judo and dismiss the potential judo disaster the blue gi represents.

Judo Disaster, huh? Okay Mr. Skerry, what is your Judo Education beyond the websites mentioned? You still haven't answered that one. Since you know so much you see.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Judo Disaster, huh? Okay Mr. Skerry, what is your Judo Education beyond the websites mentioned? You still haven't answered that one. Since you know so much you see.

Just out of curiosity Mr. Maxwell, for someone who said he wasn't going to post, why would a practitioner of combat hapikido be so defensive about the distortion of judo competition rules in 1997 to 'sportify' judo by the IJF and the IOC which, in my opinion, the blue gi represents?