Taking Away From The Arts

[MJS]

10yo black belts, mcdojos, people running around with a resume that states they train in 10 different arts, with multiple 7th and 8th degree black belts.

Those are just a few of the 'pet peeves' that some people have with the martial arts today. My question is simple: In your opinion, do you feel that these things take anything away from the martial arts? Do you feel that these things make others, who may/may not train in those arts, view them in a bad way?

 

[clfsean]

To paraphrase a Hung Ga instructor I'm acquainted with & echo his sentiment...

I will not be a member of the generation that destroys gung fu...

Everything you mentioned is taking away from, not adding value to or maintaining traditions & methods that have survived intact... until now.

 

[ATC]

No! Martial Arts are personal and one should only be looking at one’s self not others.

Only pride and ego will let one look at someone that they don't even know or deal with and place judgment on that person or even have feelings of discontent because of something they do that really does not affect them in any way.

Someone else’s status or achievements does not stop me from doing what it is that I need to do to be the best martial artist for myself.

People walk around all day everyday calling themselves one thing or another. Do you really have time to worry about whether or not they are as good as you at anything they want to claim achievement in?

Ego is all it is. In the end what does it really matter. Think about it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is a multi-faceted issue.

It is quite reasonable to assume that watered-down requirements for a recognized symbol of excellence in the martial arts such as a black belt would tend to have a deleterious effect. It would of course make more stringent requirements for belts seem less worthwhile for some prospective students; it would lead to a general disregard for the capabilities of experienced 'real' martial artists, less regard for the martial arts in general. I can think of a number of very real negative effects of watered-down belts.

On the other hand, I'm not sure it's entirely a bad thing. If Joe Sixpack does not care enough about the difference between a McDojo black belt and a 'real' black belt, then would a real dojo want him as a student? If getting a black belt is the motivator, perhaps Joe is better off in a place where he can get what his heart desires, and leave the real martial arts to those who value the training and do not pursue belts as if they conferred something in their mere ownership.

On a personal level, I do not care if others underestimate me because they have a degraded notion of what a martial artist is capable of. I do not train so that I can achieve some level of recognition from non-martial artists. I value the recognition of my dojo mates and my sensei, as well as others in the 'real' martial arts community; but other than that, not so much.

I presume that to some extent, this was the intent of many legitimate martial arts organizations and standards-setting bodies. Like how any diploma-mill can claim to give a degree, but unless it is recognized by an independent accrediting commission, it's generally worthless and non-transferable. However, many McDojos seized on this as well, and created their own associations to confer some apparent legitimacy on their organization. Obviously now the situation is hopeless; how is Joe Sixpack to know the difference between the UIKA (the Isshin-Ryu group my own dojo is associated with) and the Super-Happy World Sokeship Family 15th Dan Ryu Ha Something Something? People like ourselves might be able to do the research and put two and two together, but presumably Ma and Pa Kettle haven't the time or the inclination to do so before enrolling little Johnny in TKD lessons.

One must also recognize that some people simply DO NOT WANT to learn traditional martial arts; they want to have a piece of paper and a belt to show that they did. Others want a place to park the kiddies after school that will look interesting on a college resume; it's the 'in' thing for the tykes to have a well-rounded background on college applications. Hey, the kid gets a little exercise, the parents get a nice certificate to hang on the wall and insert in the kid's college application, and the kid might even learn enough to defend themselves on a basic level if called upon to do so.

Given the various pluses and minuses, I don't dispute that there is an issue, but the question for me would be what to do about it? It would seem that the only real resolution would be regulation. Anyone up for government regulation of martial arts?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

To paraphrase a Hung Ga instructor I'm acquainted with & echo his sentiment...

I will not be a member of the generation that destroys gung fu...

Everything you mentioned is taking away from, not adding value to or maintaining traditions & methods that have survived intact... until now.

Nothing stops those who teach traditional and 'real' martial arts from continuing to do so. The fact that others teach phony or watered-down arts doesn't force anyone who teaches the genuine article to change their ways.

It is my opinion that those who yearn for the real thing will find it if it is there to be found.

 

[geezer]

Anyone up for government regulation of martial arts?

Now stop it with the scary talk Bill! Now I'm going to have nightmares. LOL

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Now stop it with the scary talk Bill! Now I'm going to have nightmares. LOL

Well, you know what I mean. The industry has tried to regulate itself through voluntary associations and accrediting bodies. This is how other professional organizations have managed to set standards and keep them to a particular level, from barbers to lawyers, from colleges to trade schools.

However, it seems the McDojos have outflanked the legitimate associations by forming their own or simply making them up on the spot (with themselves being the only members).

In cases where there was a public interest served by keeping standards to a certain level and associations failed to do so (or governments simply failed to recognize those associations), government regulation steps in.

All kinds of trades are regulated with respect to capability, from beauticians to private investigators. The questions are whether there is a compelling public interest that would be served by requiring government regulation and license, and whether those operating dojos and McDojos would want that to happen.

 

[MJS]

IMO, I feel that it does and it doesn't. It does, because its a case of being guilty be association. People will look at the way one school does something, and automatically assume that every school that teaches that art, does things the same way.

It may not effect schools though, because some people may not care what others think. The owner of the school will simply have the attitude of, "Who cares what others are teaching. I know what I teach and its not what they teach. If people doubt the effectiveness of the art, they could come to my school, and they'll see the way its really supposed to be taught."

I agree with something that Bill said in his post....that some people just don't want to learn the arts. They're more interested in getting a paper that has their new rank listed on it and a new color to wrap around themselves. It is sad though, that many arts have to water themselves down, due to popular demand. Now, I'm not saying that every class should be so brutal that people leave crippled, and I know many schools do rely on the income, but when you have to sacrifice good solid values, because someone may get pissed off because their kid didn't pass, that does take away.

Of course, when that happens, its a trickle down effect. Ex: School A is more hard core and upholds its values. They make their students work for their rank. If you dont do good, you dont pass, plain and simple. After Joey fails numerous times, his parents pack up and move to School B where its so much easier. Over time, school A may suffer because of the actions of B. And any other school like A will most likely suffer as well.

A govt regulation of the arts? Nope, never happen. And no, I'm not saying or suggesting that there should be one.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

IMO, I feel that it does and it doesn't. It does, because its a case of being guilty be association. People will look at the way one school does something, and automatically assume that every school that teaches that art, does things the same way.

They will, but don't they anyway?

Over time, school A may suffer because of the actions of B. And any other school like A will most likely suffer as well.

Sure, that can happen, probably does, but what can be done about it?

A govt regulation of the arts? Nope, never happen. And no, I'm not saying or suggesting that there should be one.

How about licensing or background checks?

 

[clfsean]

Nothing stops those who teach traditional and 'real' martial arts from continuing to do so. The fact that others teach phony or watered-down arts doesn't force anyone who teaches the genuine article to change their ways.

It is my opinion that those who yearn for the real thing will find it if it is there to be found.

That's all true unfortunately.

Those who teach traditionally & believe in quality over quantity are outnumbered & loosing ground since there's no catering to instant gratification, guaranteed rank-in-X-time contracts or "creative ranking" and self aggrandizing in ranking, etc...

I wish people who want to study would go the extra mile to find & study in similar places (regardless of style) as opposed to the aforementioned cracker jack schools.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That's all true unfortunately.

Those who teach traditionally & believe in quality over quantity are outnumbered & loosing ground since there's no catering to instant gratification, guaranteed rank-in-X-time contracts or "creative ranking" and self aggrandizing in ranking, etc...

I wish people who want to study would go the extra mile to find & study in similar places (regardless of style) as opposed to the aforementioned cracker jack schools.

In some ways, isn't it better that people who want instant gratification and who are not willing to put in effort just go somewhere else right off the bat?

I am not an instructor, just a student, so I cannot say. But the thought occurs to me that it must be frustrating to have a student you've invested several months in training go somewhere else because they're not advancing in rank fast enough to suit themselves. Maybe better that they never come around at all?

I am always amazed at home many students have come and gone in my short two years at my dojo. People younger than me, in better physical condition and most definitely with more 'natural ability' than I have; if they'd have stayed with it, they'd have easily passed me by. But they quit. I wonder why. Maybe they had reasons like jobs, moving, and so on; I have no idea. But perhaps they quit because it's hard work and there are no promises at my dojo, and rank comes slowly, you get promoted when you've mastered the material to sensei's satisfaction and not before.

Eh, whatever, I guess. In the end, they left and I remain. My dojo mates and I continue to train, and we are happy to be where we are, doing what we're doing. If others leave and go to a belt-mill and make black belt in six months, good for them. If that's what they want, so be it.

 

[MJS]

They will, but don't they anyway?

Yup. I fall into the group that really doesnt give a rats behind what others think. I do what I do. If you like it, great. If you dont, thats great too. There are some people that like to be the Kenpo police....I'm not one of them.

Sure, that can happen, probably does, but what can be done about it?

Not much. Aside from reliving the old days, when you'd have the dojo challenges, you either change your way of teaching to the mcdojo way or keep going strong. The people who really want the hardcore training will find you.

How about licensing or background checks?

For clarification, you're talking about the state regulating this sort of thing?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

For clarification, you're talking about the state regulating this sort of thing?

Actually I was thinking more of the local level, the way many municipalities license and do background checks on various professions that have frequent contact with juveniles. I realize that even background checks and licenses are a form of 'regulation', but wondered what you thought about it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Nothing stops those who teach traditional and 'real' martial arts from continuing to do so. The fact that others teach phony or watered-down arts doesn't force anyone who teaches the genuine article to change their ways.

It is my opinion that those who yearn for the real thing will find it if it is there to be found.

I agree, but in some cases branches of arts die. Some branches of Baguazhang are dying in part due to no one wanting to train that hard and in part due to a sifu who would not water things down to gain students and in part due to a sifu that was too stubborn to teach just anyone and was looking for the right disciple.

Truth is some arts die these days when teachers refuse to water it down.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I agree, but in some cases branches of arts die. Some branches of Baguazhang are dying in part due to no one wanting to train that hard and in part due to a sifu who would not water things down to gain students and in part due to a sifu that was too stubborn to teach just anyone and was looking for the right disciple.

Truth is some arts die these days when teachers refuse to water it down.

What would the cure for that be?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Actually I was thinking more of the local level, the way many municipalities license and do background checks on various professions that have frequent contact with juveniles. I realize that even background checks and licenses are a form of 'regulation', but wondered what you thought about it.

I am all for it on every level across the board. From Martial Training Halls that work with kid's to t-ball, basketball, football, etc. right on down the line. I think it would be good and help keep predators away from the kid's. Just my opinion of course!

 

[Xue Sheng]

What would the cure for that be?

Good question.

Sadly, it appears in many situations, to be terminal.

 

[Flying Crane]

To paraphrase a Hung Ga instructor I'm acquainted with & echo his sentiment...

I will not be a member of the generation that destroys gung fu...

Everything you mentioned is taking away from, not adding value to or maintaining traditions & methods that have survived intact... until now.

Maybe the sentiment ought to be, "I won't contribute to the demise of gung fu."

 

[Balrog]

10yo black belts, mcdojos, people running around with a resume that states they train in 10 different arts, with multiple 7th and 8th degree black belts.

Those are just a few of the 'pet peeves' that some people have with the martial arts today. My question is simple: In your opinion, do you feel that these things take anything away from the martial arts? Do you feel that these things make others, who may/may not train in those arts, view them in a bad way?

A 10 year old 1st Degree Black Belt is not out of the question; that's what I think the bare-bones minimum age should be.

However, even someone who has no knowledge of martial arts at all can pretty much figure out that a 30 year old claiming multiple high ranks in several disciplines is probably padding his resume more than a little. And yeah, it does detract from martial arts overall. We're supposed to have learned about honor and integrity along the way. Someone who trains for a year then awards themself a forty-lebbenth degree in GrabAssDo is most assuredly showing neither.

 

[katagrl]

Truth is some arts die these days when teachers refuse to water it down.

Maybe there needs to be a happy medium. I'm not in favor of watering things down, but on the other hand, some attempt on the sensei's part to connect with contemporary realities might be in order. I am not referring to quick and easy promotions. However, I know in my school there's been some push back by some students who want handouts, videos of kata, etc., whereas traditionally, this is not done. The ideal, I think, is to have a rigorous traditional program making use of contemporary technology and desire for information. (Students won't really "know" something without learning it from the sensei, anyway, but what's the harm in handouts?)

As far as "government regulation" -- I don't think it would be a bad thing if it were possible. I, for one, am glad that doctors and teachers, for example, have to be licensed. Background checks are one thing, but that's not going to stop belt factories from doing their thing. At this point, there is such a mish mash of things going on that call themselves martial arts, it would be impossible to regulate any standards. I think all we can do is study and inform ourselves about our own styles and MA history, and tell anyone who cares to listen, so the public will be more informed.