Myths of the Martial Arts: A Black Belt Is a Master

[dancingalone]

Which describes taekwondo. Having said that, are you still unwilling to award children poom rank?

It can describe taekwondo.

I rather like the existing promotion scheme for children and I am inclined to keep it going. Kids as young as 10 can earn a full house BB. However they aren't eligible to test for 2nd dan until age 16. To me this is a good compromise for the most part. Although the minimum age is younger than I would like, this arrangement avoids a possible quick progression through poom ranks along with the later dan conversion potential. And the 16 year old age for a normal, full 2nd dan fits with KKW requirements.

Can you confirm something for me? While the KKW has the poom program for children, there is no actual hard age floor to gain dan certification, correct? In other words, if a dan cert is applied for by a KKW master on behalf of a 10 year old, the paperwork will still go through? Could you also give your opinion on whether this is 'appropriate' or not?

 

[dancingalone]

If you make 1st dan difficult, then what about the higher dan levels? Does it get increasingly more difficult to the point where anything over 4th or 5th dan is pretty much unattainable? 1st dan is a low rank, but only in comparison to 9th Dan. 9th Dan is the bar, 9th Dan is the ultimate, not 1st Dan.

I am not familiar with KKW requirements for attaining 4th dan +. I am working on 3rd dan content right now and my current teacher has indicated I shouldn't have any problems passing his test. I do not believe what I am working on is overly onerous considering the years that should normally go into practicing this material. So at least up to 3rd dan, I think just about anyone with reasonable fitness and an inclination to work hard over time should be able to pass his BB exams.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel, all I am saying is that it's quite possible for reasonable people to disagree, especially on subjects such as the meaning and value attached to a black belt. The people you think have unrealistic ideas likely would say the same thing about their friends on the opposite aisle. Anyone can be 'right' about this. It's not a concrete thing like a math equation.

Okay, either you are completely missing my point, or you're playing at something else.

I'll repeat the comment:

If you (the general you) are that concernedabout how a five year old black belt makes you look, then you have an ego issue or have an unrealistic image of what a black belt/first dan really symbolizes.

This comment is not about what you're trying to make it about. It is about one feeling that their own accomplishments are diminished if a kid is wearing the same color belt that they are. Those same people ignore the issue or feel that it isn't an issue until the belt is black. And honestly, I only put in the unrealistic part to be kind; since that seems to be causing confusion, I'll say it plainly:

If you (the general you) feel that a kid having a black belt diminishes your accomplishments or makes you look bad in any way, you have an ego issue and need to get over yourself.

If you feel that a black belt represents a level of expertise that is well beyond that of an advanced beginner, that is not an ego issue or unrealistic.

What I meant by unrealistic was the catching bullets in your teeth crap that was mentioned in the posts to which I was replying when I made the initial comment. Thus my reason for saying that you are not responding to my comment in the context in which it was made.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Can you confirm something for me? While the KKW has the poom program for children, there is no actual hard age floor to gain dan certification, correct? In other words, if a dan cert is applied for by a KKW master on behalf of a 10 year old, the paperwork will still go through? Could you also give your opinion on whether this is 'appropriate' or not?

It should not. There is a hard age for a first dan: fifteen. Pum grades convert at fifteen, automatically, I think. But the KKW will not award a dan cert to a ten year old.

A lot of people who dislike the pum system dislike it because of the way that pum grades convert.

Article 8 Kukkiwon pum/dan regulations: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp.

 

[dancingalone]

Okay, either you are completely missing my point, or you're playing at something else.

Neither. Our minds are simply interpreting the conversation differently, which isn't unusual for message board discussions.

I'll repeat the comment:

If you (the general you) are that concernedabout how a five year old black belt makes you look, then you have an ego issue or have an unrealistic image of what a black belt/first dan really symbolizes.

This comment is not about what you're trying to make it about. It is about one feeling that their own accomplishments are diminished if a kid is wearing the same color belt that they are. Those same people ignore the issue or feel that it isn't an issue until the belt is black. And honestly, I only put in the unrealistic part to be kind; since that seems to be causing confusion, I'll say it plainly:

If you (the general you) feel that a kid having a black belt diminishes your accomplishments or makes you look bad in any way, you have an ego issue and need to get over yourself.

Here's the thing, Daniel. What you just wrote is also a matter of opinion. I have no problems with the likes of TF saying something along the lines of "One cheesy instructor makes us all look cheesy". I'm only using him as an example because he has a blunt way of expressing himself which can offend others, and because I think you're thinking of him yourself when mentioning the pages of comments on kid BBs. I don't interpret his expressions as ego and a need to get over himself. He has as much a legitimate viewpoint as anyone else although his method of expressing himself gets in the way of his message.

If you feel that a black belt represents a level of expertise that is well beyond that of an advanced beginner, that is not an ego issue or unrealistic.

What I meant by unrealistic was the catching bullets in your teeth crap that was mentioned in the posts to which I was replying when I made the initial comment. Thus my reason for saying that you are not responding to my comment in the context in which it was made.

Thank you for explaining what you meant by unrealistic.

However, overall I don't see how I am missing your point or responding in the wrong context. You clarified in a note to Chinto "As far as people who don't like it due to demystification, these are the ones who insert pages of negative posts anytime the subject is mentioned, frequently shouting the mantra, 'they make me look bad!' in some fashion or another." To repeat myself, I don't think the people here on MT, even those with bombastic writing styles, are concerned at all about demystifying the BB rank nor do their objections to child BBs arise from their egos.

 

[dancingalone]

It should not. There is a hard age for a first dan: fifteen. Pum grades convert at fifteen, automatically, I think. But the KKW will not award a dan cert to a ten year old.

A lot of people who dislike the pum system dislike it because of the way that pum grades convert.

Article 8 Kukkiwon pum/dan regulations: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp.

Thanks, I've seen this before but I'm wondering what would actually happen if a submission came through for a 10 year old. I have heard of some kids with full paper, whether from a clerical error or not.

Businesses and institutions often have by-the-book requirements which handle the bulk of the cases, but they sometimes handle things differently when a need arises. Example: I did my last semester for my MBA in absentia, despite what the degree requirement said at the time. All it took was asking the dean's office and explaining my situation (I landed a great job and my firm wanted me to start early).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Neither. Our minds are simply interpreting the conversation differently, which isn't unusual for message board discussions.

Possible.

Here's the thing, Daniel. What you just wrote is also a matter of opinion.

Of course it is. The vast majority of posts on this board are a matter of opinion.

I have no problems with the likes of TF saying something along the lines of "One cheesy instructor makes us all look cheesy". I'm only using him as an example because he has a blunt way of expressing himself which can offend others, and because I think you're thinking of him yourself when mentioning the pages of comments on kid BBs. I don't interpret his expressions as ego and a need to get over himself. He has as much a legitimate viewpoint as anyone else although his method of expressing himself gets in the way of his message.

Actually, I wasn't thinking him, or anyone else specifically. If I have a problem with another poster's manner of posting, I will address them directly rather than make veiled comments about them.

Thank you for explaining what you meant by unrealistic.

You're welcome.

However, overall I don't see how I am missing your point or responding in the wrong context. You clarified in a note to Chinto "As far as people who don't like it due to demystification, these are the ones who insert pages of negative posts anytime the subject is mentioned, frequently shouting the mantra, 'they make me look bad!' in some fashion or another."

Yes, after discussing people thinking that a black belt means catching bullets with their teeth and making a tongue in cheek remark about five year old BBs being one way to 'demystify' the black belt.

To repeat myself, I don't think the people here on MT, even those with bombastic writing styles, are concerned at all about demystifying the BB rank nor do their objections to child BBs arise from their egos.

And to repeat my self, my comments are not limited to MT.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thanks, I've seen this before but I'm wondering what would actually happen if a submission came through for a 10 year old.

It would be issued as a first pum.

I have heard of some kids with full paper, whether from a clerical error or not.

I have never heard of this ever. I have seen ten year olds issued dojang dan certs. Chances are, their 'full paper' is a pum grade that either they or their parents think is a dan grade because it was issued with a black belt and was probably referred to as a 'degree' and not a 'dan.'

 

[dancingalone]

Actually, I wasn't thinking him, or anyone else specifically. If I have a problem with another poster's manner of posting, I will address them directly rather than make veiled comments about them.

You were thinking of someone where you mentioned people who write pages of antagonistic comments about kiddo BBs.

And to repeat my self, my comments are not limited to MT.

Maybe so, but we're on MT and so your comments will inevitably be most linked to MT and those on MT. But this line of discussion is unproductive, so until the next thread or next post...

 

[dancingalone]

It would be issued as a first pum.


I have never heard of this ever. I have seen ten year olds issued dojang dan certs. Chances are, their 'full paper' is a pum grade that either they or their parents think is a dan grade because it was issued with a black belt and was probably referred to as a 'degree' and not a 'dan.'

I've seen the cert. No 'poom' in English on it, although admittedly I'm no expert on KKW paper.

But I am really asking puunui. Thanks, though.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You were thinking of someone where you mentioned people who write pages of antagonistic comments about kiddo BBs.

No.

Maybe so, but we're on MT and so your comments will inevitably be most linked to MT and those on MT. But this line of discussion is unproductive, so until the next thread or next post...

Yes.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've seen the cert. No 'poom' in English on it, although admittedly I'm no expert on KKW paper.

But I am really asking puunui. Thanks, though.

Ok.

 

[puunui]

Daniel, all I am saying is that it's quite possible for reasonable people to disagree, especially on subjects such as the meaning and value attached to a black belt. The people you think have unrealistic ideas likely would say the same thing about their friends on the opposite aisle. Anyone can be 'right' about this. It's not a concrete thing like a math equation.

I agree that the meaning and value of a black belt is a subjective opinion oriented discussion, with no right or wrong answer.

 

[puunui]

I rather like the existing promotion scheme for children and I am inclined to keep it going. Kids as young as 10 can earn a full house BB. However they aren't eligible to test for 2nd dan until age 16. To me this is a good compromise for the most part. Although the minimum age is younger than I would like, this arrangement avoids a possible quick progression through poom ranks along with the later dan conversion potential. And the 16 year old age for a normal, full 2nd dan fits with KKW requirements.

Ok, so this is slightly different from what you spoke about in the past, wherein your philosophy for your taekwondo instruction allowed for only the rank of black belt, with no progression through the dan levels, that there was only one level for your school.

Can you confirm something for me? While the KKW has the poom program for children, there is no actual hard age floor to gain dan certification, correct? In other words, if a dan cert is applied for by a KKW master on behalf of a 10 year old, the paperwork will still go through? Could you also give your opinion on whether this is 'appropriate' or not?

If you submit a promotion recommendation for someone under 15, the certificate that comes back will be a poom certificate. The form is the same for poom or dan recommendation so what I do is put the number for the rank on the application, and let the kukkiwon sort out whether it is a poom or dan certificate.

 

[puunui]

It should not. There is a hard age for a first dan: fifteen. Pum grades convert at fifteen, automatically, I think. But the KKW will not award a dan cert to a ten year old.

Small comment: It is spelled poom not pum on the kukkiwon certificates. I don't know if you knew that or not.

 

[puunui]

I've seen the cert. No 'poom' in English on it, although admittedly I'm no expert on KKW paper.

But I am really asking puunui. Thanks, though.

Perhaps you can scan it or take a picture and I can have a look. That would be the best way to get to the bottom of it.

 

[dancingalone]

Ok, so this is slightly different from what you spoke about in the past, wherein your philosophy for your taekwondo instruction allowed for only the rank of black belt, with no progression through the dan levels, that there was only one level for your school.

Yes, that was at my church parish class which used a different curriculum and where rank advancement seemed somewhat unseemly in such an environment.

If you submit a promotion recommendation for someone under 15, the certificate that comes back will be a poom certificate. The form is the same for poom or dan recommendation so what I do is put the number for the rank on the application, and let the kukkiwon sort out whether it is a poom or dan certificate.

....

Perhaps you can scan it or take a picture and I can have a look. That would be the best way to get to the bottom of it.

Thank you, sir. I will discreetly look into getting a picture of it since my curiosity is piqued. I was thinking in the back of my head if it's possible to get a full 1st dan for all our students, why not offer them the chance? And then just proceed as normal with 16 = 2nd dan eligible.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna, in you're opinion, how would this equate to an individual that trained most of their life, but was in their 60s or 70s. As a comparison, that person would not be able to physically do what he could when they were younger, but would now possess a greater knowledge and understanding.

I do not always equate physical fitness with physical proficiency. I think there are those who are physically fit in general terms and yet physically incompetent in a particular discipline or in the case of martial arts, particular techniques.

I think when I refer to proficiency, I do not imply physical fitness and but rather a kind of physical efficiency. Having said that, I do not practice my art in an extravagant and flamboyant way and so I cannot speak to other arts that may I do not know how it works when mastery means you must hit a target above head height, I do not have experience in those disciplines though I imagine age is potentially an obstacle in meeting those standards? I have never been taught by anyone younger than me and was taught by many that were significantly older than me yet I never felt I was a physical match for them despite youth and fitness. Their technical and mechanical efficiency that was borne through years of fettling with their technique seemed to me to have produced a kind of magical ability that I held in awe and still do. My shihan was late 70s when I began and could put me where he wanted me despite my best efforts to release or deflect and it is something I am still trying to emulate even all these years later. And so apologies for a longwinded reply - I only mean that "master" is in my opinion a horribly trite term that does not carry a fraction of the gravitas that it implies. I think it should not be determined by a static marker and but rather by demonstration of proficiency against others represented within the upper percentiles of the same statistical bell curve, otherwise their title is nothing more than platitude. So I do not think it should be a test in isolation against a paper benchmark.

And to address your point directly Wes, I am not sure if you are suggesting that master status could be applied retrospectively? I would not have a problem with the conferring of that status upon someone that achieved that high-percentile peer-comparable proficiency in former years and perhaps is less able to demonstrate the proficiency that they once demonstrated. I think it is the fact that they once did demonstrate that proficiency that is the key for me. If that is the case then that is enough for me I hope that is what you were asking Jx

 

[puunui]

I was thinking in the back of my head if it's possible to get a full 1st dan for all our students, why not offer them the chance? And then just proceed as normal with 16 = 2nd dan eligible.

Eventually all your poom students can transfer to get that kukkiwon 1st dan, but I don't think that is the answer you are looking for. I also had a kukkiwon 1st dan recommendation for a twentysomething year old come back as a 1st poom certificate. We had to return it and they reissued the certificate. it was through the old ustu, and I believe there was a new person who was assigned that duty.

 

[seasoned]

in other words, claiming master status in the face of others that are exceedingly proficient may be foolish.

Jenna, in you're opinion, how would this equate to an individual that trained most of their life, but was in their 60s or 70s. As a comparison, that person would not be able to physically do what he could when they were younger, but would now possess a greater knowledge and understanding.

And to address your point directly Wes, I am not sure if you are suggesting that master status could be applied retrospectively? I would not have a problem with the conferring of that status upon someone that achieved that high-percentile peer-comparable proficiency in former years and perhaps is less able to demonstrate the proficiency that they once demonstrated. I think it is the fact that they once did demonstrate that proficiency that is the key for me. If that is the case then that is enough for me I hope that is what you were asking Jx

Thank you for you're comment, Jenna.

I did not want to get off topic, by switching from young "master" to old master, but felt it interesting to bring up.
In the case of the young "master" who may derive their status from superb technique with little depth and understanding, to the old master, who, has lost the crispness of the technique but possesses the depth and understanding of underlying principals of their art. Who would appear to be the true master in the eyes of the paying public.


Anyone care to throw a thought out................