Taekwon-Do Style

[brianbarton]

Randomly reading through many threads I read a lot of bad words relating to the style of Taekwon-Do.

I have been studying ITF Taekwon-Do for over a year now and my class in no way represents some of the horror stories I have read nor does it qualify as a McDojo.

Plus I have seen several competitions and it appears that anyone of red belt and higher can really kick butt

So what is this bad chat about then?

 

[Kirk]

I've seen sparring competitions, it was either ITF, or WTF where
they didn't even bother blocking. The rules of sparring don't
allow for simulated street attacks. Sparring and point
competitions are no way to measure effectiveness of "butt
kicking". BUT .. let me say, I don't know if that's what you're
referring to. And I don't know that anyone is saying that the
whole style of TKD is McDojo city. Just that most mcdojos teach
TKD.

TKD is getting a bad rap from Mc Dojo's. There's LOADS of them
on many o' street corner, that do things like promise black belts
in 2 years, give them to kids, etc. And most typically preach to
their students that they're big time effective in self defense, which
just isn't the case when all you do is practice forms, and spar. If
you don't practice real self defense techniques, then how could
you be effective in the street? Flashy and/or high kicks aren't
that great of a means of self defense. A lot of mcdojos claim
so much, yet deliver so little, and at times, take away students
from other schools, because of promises that they just can't
deliver.

Plus I have seen several competitions and it appears that anyone of red belt and higher can really kick butt

Have you seen these red belts against street attackers, or other
martial artists? Check out this link:

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1999/feb99/fig.html

 

[Dutch]

Maybe if they didn't have a zillion belt levels that they grade you for and take cash for then I wouldn't harass them. Or maybe if they learned to punch I'd leave them alone. But I suppose they are good places to keep the village idiots so they stay out of trouble.

They are money makers. Nothing wrong with that but it's a sport. Hell, they got into the olympics riding the back of a real martial art/sport. Judo.

 

[thaiboxer]

Originally posted by brianbarton

Randomly reading through many threads I read a lot of bad words relating to the style of Taekwon-Do.

I have been studying ITF Taekwon-Do for over a year now and my class in no way represents some of the horror stories I have read nor does it qualify as a McDojo.

Plus I have seen several competitions and it appears that anyone of red belt and higher can really kick butt

So what is this bad chat about then?

I have actually only heard about one TKD exponent who was fair dinkum (australian coloquial term for serious) and quite good using hos TKD skills against our kru (instructor), and when he says another bloke is alright i believe him, hes been around the traps. hes a bit like me, biased towards muay thai's capabilities.
having said that the guys a spar against ITF 2nd dan black and WTF guys are very ordinary, not even worth a pinch of salt im sorry to say vs. a muay thai fighter anyhow. they might be ok vs. another TKD exponent.
But i think the worst that has happened for TKD to tarnish its image is the WTF stuff for sure.
Alternatively id just like to say that i thoroughly enjoy seeing TKD/karate exponents get pummeled due to being threatened by one particular guy who did TKD and started me on my path in the martial arts. Im safe in the knowledge id whip his a*&e now, after 6 months hard training.
anyhow thats no disrespect towards you brian
:asian:

 

[white dragon]

i'd just like to chip in on the effectiveness of TKD in a street situation. I've been studying for about 1 and a hlaf years now and have had two expereince that have required me to have to fight, both times I'm very glad to say I've escaped without any personal damage what-so-ever. The first occasion was a two on one situation, the second was a 12 on 3 situation outside the club one Friday night on our way home. Luckely the second was with a 4th Dan and 3rd who pretty much whipped the floor on their own. I have a police caution letter for GBH if anyone doesn't believe me, and not I'm NOT proud of it!!! But my point is that I do truely believe that if taught correctly TKD can be as effective as any other martial art, it depends on what is taught.

I train in WTF style TKD, but I HATE it when TKD gets refered to as a martial sport. I've been to clubs where they train as a sport, never learning sweeps, or even punching to the face because it's not allowed in competition. The idea of which is mind numbing, it basically results in students not keeping their hands up. As an example I went to Scotland for the holidays to visit a friend how I'd met at university (where I currently train and started) and we went to his club. He told me seom things would be different from how I used to, fair enough. We started off with pattern work, did some 1 step etc, all fine. But then at the end of the class we did some sparring. I'm only a loely green belt, and my first fight was up against a 1st Dan, fine we were keeping it light contact. The first thing this guy did was drop his hands to his waist. Id' always been taught that this was a sign of pure arrogance, and so the first thing I did was punch him in the face. The guy didn't have time to react because he's been trained all the way up to black belt and not had a single punch aimed at his head. Before he started to say "you're not allowed to do that..." I'd turning kicked him on the side of the head and taken him to the floor putting him in an arm lock. I was then asked to sit the rest of the class out.....

I do get very annoyed when people bash TKD as a whole, but I can see where they are coming from. All I can urge people to do is to look at a club before they join it, find out where the instuctor trained, how long he's been doing it, and watch a class or to. Make sure you think the guy's on the level. And if they make any promise of getting you to black belt what-so-ever just run.

BRIAN -
I don't know if you're aware of it or not but th student ITF nationals are this weekend (the 9th) in Leeds. I would go down and watch, but I'll be taking part in the WTF one on the same day in Birmingham. I think if you can make it it'll be worth checking out and entrance is only about £3 for the whole day. Don't know how the ITF one works, but the WTF is from white belt to 3rd or 4th Dan, so you're bound to see some good action!

 

[thaiboxer]

your right white dragon, it is up to the individual and trainer and the school. there would be some good TKD fighters out there, who utilize what they are taught to good effect. Its all about natural talent and timing, reflexes and catching on quick to what your learning, and also i believe being able to visualize how you could utilize what you know against simulated attacks in your head.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I gotta put my two cents in.
I only took TKD for three months but learned plenty of aplicable stuff I had never learned in karate or kickboxing. Like anywhere else, you keep your hands up. Even if you don't use them, they're at least there to get hit instead of your head. I agree that TKD gets a lot of guff it doesn't deserve. It seems to me that the ITF and WTF don't usually get along as organizations as a whole but I don't know, I'm not a Taekwan Do guy. I think it's very important to remember what Taekwan means. I think it litterally means to smash with HANDS AND feet. Sounds plenty scary to me. I'm a big believer in an art litterally (reasonably) holding to what it's name implies. Feel free to correct me.

 

[exile]

I gotta put my two cents in.
I only took TKD for three months but learned plenty of aplicable stuff I had never learned in karate or kickboxing. Like anywhere else, you keep your hands up. Even if you don't use them, they're at least there to get hit instead of your head. I agree that TKD gets a lot of guff it doesn't deserve. It seems to me that the ITF and WTF don't usually get along as organizations as a whole but I don't know, I'm not a Taekwan Do guy. I think it's very important to remember what Taekwan means. I think it litterally means to smash with HANDS AND feet. Sounds plenty scary to me. I'm a big believer in an art litterally (reasonably) holding to what it's name implies. Feel free to correct me.

No, Em, you're 100% right. TKD as a true combat system is Korean Shotokan, and probably the nastiest, most brutal self-defense system ever was the TKD that the Korean Tiger Commandos and Marine units fought with in the Korean and Vietnam wars. It was designed to kill an enemy as fast as possible using hands and feet, and the VC field command at one point in 1966 directed their troops to avoid engagement with Korean units at all costs, specifically because of their TKD CQ combat skills. (All claims in this post cheerfully documented upon request!) So you're right on target...

 

[Em MacIntosh]

That's what I thought. Thanks for the reassurance. You get what you put in and having the right instructor is of paramount importance, the style is much less important. I vouch for Simon Chung's Tiger Taekwan Do in Edmonton, AB, even though I only spent three months there. He corrected his students. Pushed them real hard. Gave them a rough time. You either wanted to learn or you didn't. They did some good TKD. I even discussed karate concepts with him and he said the little differences are irrellevant. In the end, it's what you plan on doing with it. We definitely agreed that RELYING on being able to kick someone in the head as a basis for self defense is preposterous. Oh, and if you dropped your hands, you were doing knuckle push-ups. No softies.

 

[chrismay101]

I have been told by my instructor and other instructors in TKD we don't wrap our belts round us twice like in say karate. it should wrap around us once and this is ment to represent the number of strikes that we should require to disable an opponent.

 

[Flying Crane]

Interesting thoughts here.

I have spent only a couple short months training with a TKD group, so I cannot really state any strong opinion about the art.

However, my wife trained in TKD and Hapkido for several years while in high school and such. I don't think her school was affiliated with any of the big orgs, and I am pretty certain it had no Olympic aspirations nor training methods. She told some stories about the scary guys she trained with, and how they would brutalize people on the street. Some of these guys were kind of thugs and punks at that time in their lives, but it was pretty clear that their training served them well.

She and I have been training kenpo since last January. I trained kenpo when I was in high school, had been away from it for a number of years while I pursued other arts, and wanted to reconnect. I found a highly experienced teacher in my same kenpo lineage (Tracy), and convinced her to come along. So far she has been enjoying it.

Just the other day, I asked her how she was feeling about it so far, and how she felt it compared to her TKD and HKD experiences. She indicated that in her opinion, she felt TKD was a method that is easier to use, and that made it more effective. I could understand where she was coming from. Kenpo can be sort of "overly intellectual" at times, and kind of complex to the point where I think it is overdone. But if you get thru it and dig deep, I think kenpo has a lot of potential to be a truly devastating art. But at this point in her training, she felt that her TKD was perhaps more user-friendly, and therefor useful.

Whenever people start bashing this or that art as a whole, I always think about an experience I had while in college. At that time I was a strictly kenpo guy. My instructors had some TKD experience, one of the had a TKD shodan as well. Our favorite past-time was making fun of TKD. They felt it didn't have much to offer, and I took their word for it. But when I was in college, I met a guy who was an exchange student from Mexico City. His aspiration was to be on the Mexican TKD Olympic team. I got together and worked out with him a couple times. When we sparred, he really worked me over. He was fast, hit hard, and was nailing me with all kinds of textbook techniques, including sweeps and takedowns, not sloppy, slappy sparring stuff. He really opened my eyes, and that was when I started to understand that it isn't the art, but rather the individual and how well he can use his art, whatever art that may be.

Anyway, just my perspective.

 

[exile]

That's what I thought. Thanks for the reassurance. You get what you put in and having the right instructor is of paramount importance, the style is much less important.

Exactly right. An instructor who wants to train you primarily for ring competetition will pull out a very small fraction of the techs in the TKD toolkit, and the ones that s/he does teach you are impractical for SD. And s/he'll train you, and have you practice, specifically for foot-tag style sparring. An SD-oriented instructor will teach you very differently: a lot of hand/arm techs, suitable for the ranges at which real fighting takes place, and will train you for those conditions—fairly unpleasant but necessary, if you want to have what you need in that parking lot or on that subway or bus dealing with that hostile, violent creep. It's really how you train that makes the difference...

I vouch for Simon Chung's Tiger Taekwan Do in Edmonton, AB, even though I only spent three months there. He corrected his students. Pushed them real hard. Gave them a rough time. You either wanted to learn or you didn't. They did some good TKD. I even discussed karate concepts with him and he said the little differences are irrellevant. In the end, it's what you plan on doing with it. We definitely agreed that RELYING on being able to kick someone in the head as a basis for self defense is preposterous. Oh, and if you dropped your hands, you were doing knuckle push-ups. No softies.

Sounds like my kind of instructor!

 

[Steel Tiger]

Unfortunately, the Korean government's determined push to make TKD an Olympic sport, along with some very suspicious results at Seoul, have severely tarnished the art's reputation. Most criticism comes from those who know nothing about the art and, because of the reputation, are unwilling to learn. Whether it be combat, self defence or sport TKD, it still carries the burden of a, generally unfair, reputation.

It would take a concerted effort on the part of TKD as a whole, with not a little help from the Korean government, to repair the damage to its reputation. Sadly, I cannot see such a level of cooperation happening in the near future.

 

[exile]

Unfortunately, the Korean government's determined push to make TKD an Olympic sport, along with some very suspicious results at Seoul,

Whoa, that sounds juicy.... I mean, interesting. Can you elaborate a little, ST?

have severely tarnished the art's reputation. Most criticism comes from those who know nothing about the art and, because of the reputation, are unwilling to learn. Whether it be combat, self defence or sport TKD, it still carries the burden of a, generally unfair, reputation.

This is most definitely true, and it's important to remember that TKD comes in for more than its share of criticisms because of its immense poplularity and prominence due to the Olympic thing. I've made my own views pretty clear in various threads: I don't think the competition thing as it stands benefits TKD and I'd advise any martial art that wants to maintain its, um, street cred, to avoid the competition/spectacle thing at all costs. But the history of TKD, if it's investigated with a cold, objective, eye, reveals an extremely combat-effective MA which was in effect taken over as an instrument of a nationalist reaction to occupation and exploitation, and which still has the juice to be as devestating as it was at the Battle of Tra Binh Dong in 1967 and other wartime venues, where it meant life for those who had mastered it, in the life-and-death close quarters fighting that went on.

It would take a concerted effort on the part of TKD as a whole, with not a little help from the Korean government, to repair the damage to its reputation. Sadly, I cannot see such a level of cooperation happening in the near future.

No, nor I. But I think it could happen, via an .... amicable???...separation between the combat art and the Olympic sport. They have little in common now except the name....

 

[bluemtn]

Great posts, everyone! I feel that most of the bad image is from olympic style schools, although not all of them are bad either. It really depends on the instructors and what their focus is. Way back in the day (about 10 yrs ago ), I attended an olympic TKD school, but they had touched quite a bit on self defense, plus had some HKD in there rolled into one. I think a lot of it has changed towards more of a sport oriented point of view, and has "black belt- itis". The biggest bad image is from the popping- out of black belts that can't show how well of an artist they should be. The sport aspect isn't bad, IMHO, just as long as that isn't the key focus...

 

[Steel Tiger]

Unfortunately, the Korean government's determined push to make TKD an Olympic sport, along with some very suspicious results at Seoul,

Whoa, that sounds juicy.... I mean, interesting. Can you elaborate a little, ST? quote]

If you look at the records from the TKD competition at the Seoul Olympics you will find that the ROK won most if not all of the gold medals. There has been some speculation that the judging was dodgy.

 

[exile]

Unfortunately, the Korean government's determined push to make TKD an Olympic sport, along with some very suspicious results at Seoul,

Whoa, that sounds juicy.... I mean, interesting. Can you elaborate a little, ST?

If you look at the records from the TKD competition at the Seoul Olympics you will find that the ROK won most if not all of the gold medals. There has been some speculation that the judging was dodgy.

Hmmmm.... why am I not even a little surprised?....

My take on these sorts of things is that, at bottom, something like a martial art is going to mean something very different in the place that it originated in under one set of social and historical conditions, on the one hand, and in a different place that took it up for its own reasons, with a radically different history on the other. My guess is, for example, that an awful lot of people in the West who take up TKD could not care less about the degree of glory that Olympic status brings TKD and, by extension, its Korean cradle (with the caveat that, to extend the metaphor, the baby was born in a different house and adopted subsequently). I took up TKD because I was looking for a hard linear fighting system, and TKD seemed as hard and linear as you could get. The payoff for me was, from the beginning, self defense in last-resort situations. And a surprising number of people I know in TKD got involved for the same reasons. My sense, from talking to Korean students and friends, is that in the ROK, TKD is seen in very different terms. As a North American, I have an uncomfortable sense of potential violence around me and want effective, even harsh, tools available to safeguard myself and my family from that; my Korean friends, colleagues and students have nothing remotely like this same sense. Once upon a time, things were different, they tell me—Seoul was a very dangerous place, and all of Korea lived in expectation of violence on a much greater scale than we can imagine here. But of course, it's also true that in those days, TKD was a very different thing—much more effective and brutal in its typical practice than it is now.

What I think is going to happen is that a point will come when Western TKD exponents, with no particular interest in the sporting glory that TKD has garnered for the ROK, are going to de-link themselves from the WTF/KKW version of the art, and begin to experiment, at the individual dojang level, with something that will be very similar to the open-ended, combat-oriented MA that TKD was in the Kwan era: a transplanted Shotokan with emphasis on fighting effectiveness, elaboration of the full inventory of techs embedded (but rarely accessed) in the hyungs, including joint locks, forcing and controlling moves based on traps, the aggressive use of elbows and hard strikes to weak points all over the body, without regard for tournament restrictions.... the full monty. Maybe there will be a name change along the way: Combat Hapkido is officially recognized as a separate Kwan, and perhaps we will have an actual `style', Combat TKD as Simon O'Neil has already christened it, that embodies this particular version of the art. It could well turn out that way.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Hmmmm.... why am I not even a little surprised?....

What I think is going to happen is that a point will come when Western TKD exponents, with no particular interest in the sporting glory that TKD has garnered for the ROK, are going to de-link themselves from the WTF/KKW version of the art, and begin to experiment, at the individual dojang level, with something that will be very similar to the open-ended, combat-oriented MA that TKD was in the Kwan era: a transplanted Shotokan with emphasis on fighting effectiveness, elaboration of the full inventory of techs embedded (but rarely accessed) in the hyungs, including joint locks, forcing and controlling moves based on traps, the aggressive use of elbows and hard strikes to weak points all over the body, without regard for tournament restrictions.... the full monty. Maybe there will be a name change along the way: Combat Hapkido is officially recognized as a separate Kwan, and perhaps we will have an actual `style', Combat TKD as Simon O'Neil has already christened it, that embodies this particular version of the art. It could well turn out that way.

Just while I was reading through your above post it struck me that we are in similar situations, that have been approached by the nation involved in different ways.

My own art, bagua, has a history as a complex and effective fighting art, but nowadays you find it as a part of the broader Wushu program. Wushu bagua is very different. It is a performance designed to exemplify certain technical and athletic aspects, not the fighting skills that are inherent. The bagua I practice is not of the Wushu variety, it is most likely from Emei mountain (not certain, damned Cultural Revolution!) and is very fighting effective.

Comparing how the Chinese and Korean governments have approached a similar situation is very interesting.

With TKD, the Korean government seems to be trying to present a united front, essentially TKD is TKD regardless of the curriculum. OK, they want to use the art to promote Korea and its culture.

The Chinese government created the National Wushu Association and its various organs. Under this umbrella there is a program which is used for competition and judging. Wushu is the public, government face of Chinese MAs, but the government does not appear to mind that there are many martial artists who do not operate under the auspices of the Association. They, of course, cannot compete in Wushu event, but that's OK too.

I think both nations are presenting MAs as an exemplar of their cultures but where the ROK has chosen a very tight interpretation of the art, the PRC seems to have taken a more lenient approach, which is quite surprising really. Then again, maybe I'm misreading the situations somewhat.

 

[exile]

Just while I was reading through your above post it struck me that we are in similar situations, that have been approached by the nation involved in different ways.

My own art, bagua, has a history as a complex and effective fighting art, but nowadays you find it as a part of the broader Wushu program. Wushu bagua is very different. It is a performance designed to exemplify certain technical and athletic aspects, not the fighting skills that are inherent.

Boy, does this ring a bell! Check out Flying Crane's post here, and some of his others in the same thread:

So I think the SPECTACLE is a huge detriment to the arts....sometimes I just wish we could do it. Eliminate all the commercialization, the performance, the SPECTACLE of it all. But you can't un-ring a bell. It just makes my teeth itch.

The bagua I practice is not of the Wushu variety, it is most likely from Emei mountain (not certain, damned Cultural Revolution!) and is very fighting effective.

Whether it's sport or spectacle, the consensus seems to be that the `face for the world to see' that the Korean and Chinese government have attempted to construct for their martial arts is distinctly nonmartial, and that these efforts, whatever agenda is driving them, wind up undercutting the credibility of the combat aspect of the art...

Comparing how the Chinese and Korean governments have approached a similar situation is very interesting.

With TKD, the Korean government seems to be trying to present a united front, essentially TKD is TKD regardless of the curriculum. OK, they want to use the art to promote Korea and its culture.

The Chinese government created the National Wushu Association and its various organs. Under this umbrella there is a program which is used for competition and judging. Wushu is the public, government face of Chinese MAs, but the government does not appear to mind that there are many martial artists who do not operate under the auspices of the Association. They, of course, cannot compete in Wushu event, but that's OK too.

I think both nations are presenting MAs as an exemplar of their cultures but where the ROK has chosen a very tight interpretation of the art, the PRC seems to have taken a more lenient approach, which is quite surprising really. Then again, maybe I'm misreading the situations somewhat.

No, you sound right on target. The Korean government seems to have decided to systematically leech out the fighting content of TKD, and compared with what the Chinese government does, as you describe it, the ROK operates in a pretty monopolistic way. If there are TKD dojangs unaffiliated with the WTF/KKW in Korea, there can't be very many of them! It'll be interesting to see how long the Chinese allow MA `dissidents' in their midst....

 

[Steel Tiger]

No, you sound right on target. The Korean government seems to have decided to systematically leech out the fighting content of TKD, and compared with what the Chinese government does, as you describe it, the ROK operates in a pretty monopolistic way. If there are TKD dojangs unaffiliated with the WTF/KKW in Korea, there can't be very many of them! It'll be interesting to see how long the Chinese allow MA `dissidents' in their midst....

I think all it will take is a zealous official with a taste for the MAs and the usual desire to control, then it will be a case of join or suffer the consequences. I hope this does not happen. I have a feeling that the Chinese, even the government, are very proud of the broad and diverse MA heritage they have and would like to keep it. But to the Chinese mind this might mean everything in the Wushu basket.

I was recently lent a DVD by a colonel from the PLA (he's a student where I work) made by the Chinese cultural board about Wushu. They are very proud of this institution, so it may become the norm for Chinese MAs.