Systema a discussion

[Gerry Seymour]

A quick test for the efficiency of breath within movements.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=685773055229282

That one's tough for me - I'm used to letting the breath go with the movements naturally. I ended up having to just delay the inhale some at the end, but still a normal inhale.

 

[Gweilo]

That one's tough for me - I'm used to letting the breath go with the movements naturally. I ended up having to just delay the inhale some at the end, but still a normal inhale.

In a normal situation, we would breath with our movement too. This exercise is designed to put our movement and breathing under pressure, so with practice, in a high pressure situation, we don't lock our body up, we are able to move, escape or counter.
In many cases, once we lose control of our breathing, the tension creeps in, muscles tense, movement is restricted, then the mind games start, I am trapped, he's got me etc, by learning to regulate, or elongate our breath, we are able to control, or even eliminate, that creeping tension, fear, mind games, so our body and phyche is free to move as efficiently and effectively as possible.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In a normal situation, we would breath with our movement too. This exercise is designed to put our movement and breathing under pressure, so with practice, in a high pressure situation, we don't lock our body up, we are able to move, escape or counter.
In many cases, once we lose control of our breathing, the tension creeps in, muscles tense, movement is restricted, then the mind games start, I am trapped, he's got me etc, by learning to regulate, or elongate our breath, we are able to control, or even eliminate, that creeping tension, fear, mind games, so our body and phyche is free to move as efficiently and effectively as possible.

There is some science behind that idea of using breathing to control stress response. I practice a fair amount of breath control, but it's focused differently, and didn't translate well to the idea of maintaining a smooth exhale through disparate movements. I think the way I use breath in falls and rolls has a lot of influence on that set of movements. It'll be an interesting challenge to see what it takes to maintain that even exhale.

 

[Gweilo]

There is some science behind that idea of using breathing to control stress response. I practice a fair amount of breath control, but it's focused differently, and didn't translate well to the idea of maintaining a smooth exhale through disparate movements. I think the way I use breath in falls and rolls has a lot of influence on that set of movements. It'll be an interesting challenge to see what it takes to maintain that even exhale.

There is an interesting read with a link I added in post #146 about the Vagus nerve. The test on the video is the beginning of a harder set of breathing techniques we use, the end result would be the 4 movements an in breath, followed by 4 on a full hold, the 4 on an exhale, 4 on an empty hold, it is difficult, especially trying to return to a normal breath pattern after the excercise, with no, or minium restoration. It is something to build up to, after basic breath ladders. We also perfom the's sequence of breath pattern whilst rolling, but it is vital keep each breath phase constant, so an in breath must be smooth and constant through the sequence as would the exhale.

 

[jobo]

There is some science behind that idea of using breathing to control stress response. I practice a fair amount of breath control, but it's focused differently, and didn't translate well to the idea of maintaining a smooth exhale through disparate movements. I think the way I use breath in falls and rolls has a lot of influence on that set of movements. It'll be an interesting challenge to see what it takes to maintain that even exhale.

i think that's cart before horses, controlling stress response, is controlling your nervious system, that then controls your breathing, rather than the other way round, or if your anxiety response kicks in, there nothing you can do to control your breathing, except gain control of your nervous system, once you have your breathing is under control

 

[Gweilo]

i think that's cart before horses, controlling stress response, is controlling your nervious system, that then controls your breathing, rather than the other way round, or if your anxiety response kicks in, there nothing you can do to control your breathing, except gain control of your nervous system, once you have your breathing is under control

I disagree, the breathing is the 1st thing that elevates, control the breath, the rest is easier. If I get into a conflict situation (granted that's not very often), I am able to remain calm , relaxed (poised and ready, not floppy), I no longer get a surge of adrenaline, grind teeth, screw up the nose, this all starts with my breathing. It may work the other way round for you, but not for myself, again there is an interesting read, about hacking the Vagus nerve through your breath, there is a link in post #146.

 

[jobo]

I disagree, the breathing is the 1st thing that elevates, control the breath, the rest is easier. If I get into a conflict situation (granted that's not very often), I am able to remain calm , relaxed (poised and ready, not floppy), I no longer get a surge of adrenaline, grind teeth, screw up the nose, this all starts with my breathing. It may work the other way round for you, but not for myself, again there is an interesting read, about hacking the Vagus nerve through your breath, there is a link in post #146.

but it's your nervous system that controlling your breathing, its yournervous system that controlling the adrenaline responce not your breathing, similarly its your nervious system that controlling your shaking and bowl evacuation response.

concentrating on your breathing is a mental trick to gain control of your nervous system, once you've mastered your nervious system, then there's no need to consciously control breathing as your nervous system does it automatically

 

[Gweilo]

ŹZZZZZZZ

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i think that's cart before horses, controlling stress response, is controlling your nervious system, that then controls your breathing, rather than the other way round, or if your anxiety response kicks in, there nothing you can do to control your breathing, except gain control of your nervous system, once you have your breathing is under control

There’s some good evidence breathing can influence the overall response. I have some ideas as why, but no idea if my ideas are based on anything real. In spite of my ignorance and the counterintuitive nature of the concept, there’s evidence it works.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but it's your nervous system that controlling your breathing, its yournervous system that controlling the adrenaline responce not your breathing, similarly its your nervious system that controlling your shaking and bowl evacuation response.

concentrating on your breathing is a mental trick to gain control of your nervous system, once you've mastered your nervious system, then there's no need to consciously control breathing as your nervous system does it automatically

It could be just a mental trick (in which case, it still works). It could also be that conscious control of breathing requires the use of brain centers (like the executive center) that can override and control the emotional center (where the stress reaction originates). So it may be that controlling breathing initiates that override.

 

[jobo]

It could be just a mental trick (in which case, it still works). It could also be that conscious control of breathing requires the use of brain centers (like the executive center) that can override and control the emotional center (where the stress reaction originates). So it may be that controlling breathing initiates that override.

It could be just a mental trick (in which case, it still works). It could also be that conscious control of breathing requires the use of brain centers (like the executive center) that can override and control the emotional center (where the stress reaction originates). So it may be that controlling breathing initiates that override.

well no, not by definition, if your over ridding the emotional centre, then your controlling your nervous system, which in turn moderates your breathing,, its aways the effect of n/ s control and not the cause, which is why breathing control is a sticking plaster and you should have work on control of your n/ s and then you wouldn't have elevated breathing/ racing heartbeat or any other of the stress reactions in the first place, unless you decided you need them and then you can release adrenaline as you need it,,
you really don't have time in an emergency situation to stand there doing breathing exercisess to control you fear responce by the time you've gained control you or someone is serious injuried

 

[Gweilo]

well no, not by definition, if your over ridding the emotional centre, then your controlling your nervous system, which in turn moderates your breathing,, its aways the effect of n/ s control and not the cause, which is why breathing control is a sticking plaster and you should have work on control of your n/ s and then you wouldn't have elevated breathing/ racing heartbeat or any other of the stress reactions in the first place, unless you decided you need them and then you can release adrenaline as you need it,,
you really don't have time in an emergency situation to stand there doing breathing exercisess to control you fear responce by the time you've gained control you or someone is serious injuried

This demonstrates your one tract mind, within ma, the breathing exercises are used to train yourself to breath in a way, that is constant throughout your life, and once mastered it is a natural occurrence, like a muscle reflex, your breath patterns change. Now days I breath in and out through my nose, like most, but I only take the air I need, if I am out walking the dogs, my breathing changes to in through nose out through mouth, without me consiously changing, when I am starting to work a bit harder, my in breath is no longer sharp and deep, but smooth and long, my exhale is slightly longer than the inhale. I also never catch myself holding my breath for no reason. This is not a case of some exercises to get my breathing correct for a session, or a fight, these are a series of breath training excersises, to use every day as a constant. In Systema we believe that breathing is a function of the body, that can be maximised, just like the rest of the human body, I know the typical Jobo reply will be, "I am XX years old, and my breathing has got me this far", but if you wish to be the very best you can be, then every single part of you, needs to be at its best.

 

[Gweilo]

Simple test, to do if you are walking the dog, in through nose out through mouth, breath in for 1 step, hold breath 1 step, exhale 1 step, empty hold 1 step, your inhale for example must last for the whole of each stage, so the inhale must last for example 1 step, then 2 steps, 3 steps, see if you can get up to 10 steps, which is a very basic level. At the end of the process the aim is to return to your normal breathing pattern comfortably, hopefully imediatley, or with a very short recovery. At present I can achieve 24 steps comfortably, but can go to 27 steps, but with a fair bit of recovery.
Over the years I have done a couple of different arts, and if tomorrow, I could only keep 1 element of my ma journey, it would be without thought or question, the breathing techniques that I have gained, whilst training this art.

 

[jobo]

This demonstrates your one tract mind, within ma, the breathing exercises are used to train yourself to breath in a way, that is constant throughout your life, and once mastered it is a natural occurrence, like a muscle reflex, your breath patterns change. Now days I breath in and out through my nose, like most, but I only take the air I need, if I am out walking the dogs, my breathing changes to in through nose out through mouth, without me consiously changing, when I am starting to work a bit harder, my in breath is no longer sharp and deep, but smooth and long, my exhale is slightly longer than the inhale. I also never catch myself holding my breath for no reason. This is not a case of some exercises to get my breathing correct for a session, or a fight, these are a series of breath training excersises, to use every day as a constant. In Systema we believe that breathing is a function of the body, that can be maximised, just like the rest of the human body, I know the typical Jobo reply will be, "I am XX years old, and my breathing has got me this far", but if you wish to be the very best you can be, then every single part of you, needs to be at its best.

for as much as i have considered it, which is just the last two minutes, that exactly how I breath,

it's a supply and demand system, with the blood stream acting as a depository, to store oxygen for instance access, so, breathing efficiently has three elements, the efficient extraction of oxygen by the lungs, ( and the removal of co2 )an elevated level of blood oxygen and 5h efficient use of oxigen by the muscles, as long as that system works you don't get elevated breathing, if it breaks down you do, or if you're bringing oxygen at the same level as its being consumed your respirator system ( and therefore your breathing pattern)is working just fine.

the more you can do before you need deep breaths,the fitter you are, ie deep breathing in a significant indicator of lack of fitness, if you fitness was better you wouldn't need to, so its a sticking plaster to cover up lack of fitness, which you could a dress by agood excersise routeen. I

one of the ways to do this is to build the oxygen efficiency of the muscle by concentrate on building your anaerobic capacity, ie th e intensity / duration you can achieve with out using oxygen at all. the higher this is the less important breathing is to your athletic performance, when I'm doing circuit training I consider elevated breathing as a failure, as I've built it up I can now do 3 x 10 high intensity exercises in half an hour with barely raised heart and breathing and knock of a ten minute miles with my walking speed breathing, 7 min miles and I have to start raising my breathing some what. but working on it. similarly I can do 100 m hill sprints witout troubling my respority system were a few months ago a was panting after one

 

[jobo]

Simple test, to do if you are walking the dog, in through nose out through mouth, breath in for 1 step, hold breath 1 step, exhale 1 step, empty hold 1 step, your inhale for example must last for the whole of each stage, so the inhale must last for example 1 step, then 2 steps, 3 steps, see if you can get up to 10 steps, which is a very basic level. At the end of the process the aim is to return to your normal breathing pattern comfortably, hopefully imediatley, or with a very short recovery. At present I can achieve 24 steps comfortably, but can go to 27 steps, but with a fair bit of recovery.
Over the years I have done a couple of different arts, and if tomorrow, I could only keep 1 element of my ma journey, it would be without thought or question, the breathing techniques that I have gained, whilst training this art.

you've clearly been told and accepted this as some sort of truth, with out checking if there is some sports science behind it?, my view is I " train like an athlete" if soccer players aren't doing thirty steps holding their breath to build their fitness, I can see no reason to go off the accepted wisdom and start doing so ? they employ the best fitness coaches in the world, in a environment were results are everything

 

[Gweilo]

you've clearly been told and accepted this as some sort of truth, with out checking if there is some sports science behind i

No you've heard one small part of a training system, it does not fit in with your ideaology and decided you know better, and come to a conclusion to fit your own beliefs. That's fine, but please do not assume, I am stupid.

 

[Gweilo]

Just found this after 30 seconds searching on the Internet. Read it all including the conclusion, there are loads more sites, including sports and medical councils from around the globe.

Breathing Exercises - Sports Psychology - IResearchNet

 

[jobo]

Just found this after 30 seconds searching on the Internet. Read it all including the conclusion, there are loads more sites, including sports and medical councils from around the globe.

Breathing Exercises - Sports Psychology - IResearchNet

so where the one were you don't breath out for 30 steps ?

 

[jobo]

No you've heard one small part of a training system, it does not fit in with your ideaology and decided you know better, and come to a conclusion to fit your own beliefs. That's fine, but please do not assume, I am stupid.

I know exactly what you've told me above, if that not a sufficient amount to judge you should have typed more, I can only answer the points you make

 

[Gweilo]

so where the one were you don't breath out for 30 steps ?

I said I currently can do 24 steps comfortably, this is a personal goal of mine.