surefire flashlights...

[RoninPimp]

Physically, yes. But, thats only if things only move in a straight line from zero.

-Huh?

 

[Jonathan Randall]

-You can't be serious. It is physically impossible for a 6" weapon to extend your reach 18"-20".

It is the fact that the increased penetration allows the strike to come from a further point away from your body and yet have the same effect - closer to a jab, althought that's not how I threw mine (closer to a lunge punch in extension, but not execution). You get more EXTENSION when you can throw an effective technique that doesn't rely upon a wind-up (hook) or rear armed strike (right cross, uppercut). Measure the distance you have to be from your opponent's body to land an uppercut or shovel hook relative to a strike that leaves your attacking arm in front of your body (extended).

Try it. Get a meter, go full force with a, let's say a right cross. Go partial (1/5 the amount) with a SD stick or a capped sharpie - too much force and it WILL BREAK THE METER. Then see the indentation in the meter shield. Ok, now, imagine if you can, the punch vs. the stick upon your solar plexus. 1/5 the force with a stick will have as much penetration as a full force punch.

This arguing over force, concentration, magnification, etc. is semantics. The EFFECT is greater with a SD stick.

Now, what WERE THE HOLES IN MY STORY AGAIN?

On Edit: I get 19 inches over an uppercut and about fourteen on an uppercut - for the same amount of PENETRATION - thus EFFECTIVENESS. ROUGH MEASUREMENTS.


Here I am, documenting the figures in what I write and all you have to say is "there are holes in my story'. What holes?

BTW, kubotans were very popular circa late 1980's early 1990's, but I didn't want to carry a weapon (for legal reasons) so I, after seeing that a sharpie would do almost as well, started practicing with one. Nearest weapon nearest target type strikes.

 

[Apollo]

-Huh?

In Kenpo, theres a concept called I think "Moving up the Circle". May be calling it wrong, but the basic idea is that by moving in a circular way, you can close a gap and thereby bring a weapon to target that would otherwise have been out of range. I can't attach a picture of the diagram so hopefully you can follow this. There is a similar concept in the FMA that uses body twisting and momentum as well as foot work to accomplish the same.

 

[RoninPimp]

It is the fact that the increased penetration allows the strike to come from a further point away from your body and yet have the same effect - closer to a jab, althought that's not how I threw mine.

Try it. Get a meter, go full force with a, let's say a right cross. Go partial (1/5 the amount) with a SD stick or a capped sharpie - too much force and it WILL BREAK THE METER. Then see the indentation in the meter shield. Ok, now, imagine if you can, the punch vs. the stick upon your solar plexus. 1/5 the force with a stick will have as much penetration as a full force punch.

This arguing over force, concentration, magnification, etc. is semantics. The EFFECT is greater with a SD stick.

-It is not semantics. It is physics. Concetraiting the force is not the same as multiplying it. If your "meter' shows that it does, then your test procedure is wrong.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

-It is not semantics. It is physics. Concetraiting the force is not the same as multiplying it. If your "meter' shows that it does, then your test procedure is wrong.

Did you read my post? Meters (inexpensive Martial art's meters, at least) will only show the TOTAL FORCE of the strike (engineering meters can tell much more). 1/5th the force gave me greater penetration, magnification of effectiveness, concentration, etc.

Again, where are the holes in my story? You seem to be implying that I am lying. Since I was unsure of myself on the amount of extension gained, without sacrificing effectiveness, I measured it for you and described the procedure used.

I used lighter force than I could have because I am in my late thirties and the person was a kid about 17 and I did not want to go to jail - possible, even though I was not the aggressor and he had a documented past of taunting me while I was on my breaks at work - playing chicken with his bicycle against me, etc. (I go for walks on my breaks). It was a touchy issue for me because of the age differences (not size as I am short) and the almost certain job repercussions that going all-out would have entailed.

Again, your assertions regarding SD sticks are unproven, untested and demonstrably false to anyone with ANY training whatsoever with the items.

You can't back up your arguments against SD sticks, you won't TEST them, yet you remain stalwart in your position. That's bullshido - intellectual and academic martial arts. Unproven, untested, dogmatic.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

In Kenpo, theres a concept called I think "Moving up the Circle". May be calling it wrong, but the basic idea is that by moving in a circular way, you can close a gap and thereby bring a weapon to target that would otherwise have been out of range. I can't attach a picture of the diagram so hopefully you can follow this. There is a similar concept in the FMA that uses body twisting and momentum as well as foot work to accomplish the same.

Mine was closer to a Shotokan lunge punch from a seated (bent over) position - not really that, but as close as I can describe on the internet and yet explain how I could gain those 18-20 inches (turns out to be 14-19 when measured), yet retain the effectiveness (concentrated force) of a boxing uppercut (or hook) with only about a fifth the force. Again, I can guage (roughly) my force because I have practiced with a meter.

 

[Apollo]

I think we've beaten the pocket stick issue to death here. Ronin is guessing and doesn't train with them. End of topic. Lets get back to the flashlight stuff eh? We're way off topic at this point I think.

 

[Carol]

Any recommendations for a quality alterntive to the E2D?

The $20 units from Hong Kong on eBay don't look very trustworthy :rofl:

 

[Shinkengata]

What i am seeing, is our friend here offering up statements based on the same(and in some cases less than) logic and theory from experience (or lack thereof) that he hopes to dispel.

Let us hope that RP's ability to choose his battles in the real world is better than his ability to do so online, otherwise someone could be writing his early obituatary one of these days.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I think we've beaten the pocket stick issue to death here. Ronin is guessing and doesn't train with them. End of topic. Lets get back to the flashlight stuff eh? We're way off topic at this point I think.

Actually, not quite, IMO, but I see your point.

The principles that I tried to explain to RoninPimp, apply just as well to SD sticks and flashlights (when used for striking). People who read through the posts can do the same measurements that I did and see the differences that a flashlight (or SD stick, or capped Sharpie) can make over empty hand techniques.

You're right, RoninPimp is just posting and accusing. He won't TEST any of this. That's why I said his assertions smelled of bullshido martial arts - intellectual martial artists are certain of everything but will test nothing because THEY COULD FIND OUT THAT THEY ARE WRONG.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Any recommendations for a quality alterntive to the E2D?

The $20 units from Hong Kong on eBay don't look very trustworthy :rofl:

I don't know, but I wouldn't scorn a SHARPIE. Seriously, it does take more practice than a tool designed specifically for the job (flashlight end or kubotan), but if you hold one and practice centerline strikes, making sure to have some waist torque in each strike and going from a relaxed position to a strike, you will find them very effective. Think of it like a snake striking. The hardest part, actually, is keeping hold of it when you make contact - that takes real practice. However, the legal repurcussions of using (and carrying) a Sharpie (an object obviously not designed as a weapon) are far less than an unethical civil litigation attorney could make you face with some fancy courtroom rhetoric.

BTW, I think RoninPimp has left the building - apparently all he can say is no, won't work, don't need it, or you're lying ("holes in your story", implies just that).

Oh, and since this is a Ninjutsu thread, I think the "purloined letter" character of a Sharpie, as opposed to SD stick or flashlight designed specifically for self-defence fits.

While this SD stick tangent seems to have thrown the thread off, I don't believe it has as the lights can also be used as SD sticks. When I see a mini-mag light, I think kubotan. What about a quick shine to stun, followed by a strike to a vulnerable point with the blunt back of the light? Double whammy.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm curious to know what the real differences are between a cheap Mag, and these other lights. I saw the part about light quality, but I've always been impressed with my Mag. So, whats the scoop?

 

[Makalakumu]

-No argument from me on a pocket stick hurting more. My argument is that it is not enough to be the deciding factor.

While I understand your point regarding weapon choice and life threatening SD situations, I also understand that sometimes one doesn't have a choice. One must improvise. Knowing how to use a weapon like a chizikunbo would definitely help improvise a number of weapons. And the 12 fold increase in applied force would definitely cause more trauma to the area it was applied. This gives an advantage to a defender and while it may or may not stop the attacker, the advantage is still there...

 

[Phil Elmore]

The Minimag used to be the standard by which I judged all lights. They're perfectly fine pocket lights and they can serve well as pocket sticks. The current generation of SureFires, Streamlights, Ledwaves, and even the Chinese imports are simply brighter. The conventional Maglite is old technology (but Maglite has finally introduced LED lights, from what I'm told).

 

[Makalakumu]

-It is not semantics. It is physics. Concetraiting the force is not the same as multiplying it.

A force, unapplied, is just that. An object accelerates and picks up momentum. How the force is applied makes ALL of the difference. When one concentrates the application of that force, one is applying the force more effectively.

The reverse of the principle is why people do ukemi. Would you say that since the force of a fall is the same regardless of application, that people don't need to know ukemi?

In both situations, the actual force (F), takes a backseat to application.

Also, I disagree with your point about these things not causing too much trauma. I've grappled with my jujutsu teacher while he held one of these things and I couldn't do a darn thing because he would push it into a pressure point and bring on a whole new world of pain. I wasn't being struck with it, yet, my body had some of the darkest bruises I've ever had. I doubt you could strike someone with this without seriously hurting someone. That 12 fold increase in applied force is no joke...

 

[RoninPimp]

It is the fact that the increased penetration allows the strike to come from a further point away from your body and yet have the same effect - closer to a jab, althought that's not how I threw mine (closer to a lunge punch in extension, but not execution). You get more EXTENSION when you can throw an effective technique that doesn't rely upon a wind-up (hook) or rear armed strike (right cross, uppercut). Measure the distance you have to be from your opponent's body to land an uppercut or shovel hook relative to a strike that leaves your attacking arm in front of your body (extended).

Try it. Get a meter, go full force with a, let's say a right cross. Go partial (1/5 the amount) with a SD stick or a capped sharpie - too much force and it WILL BREAK THE METER. Then see the indentation in the meter shield. Ok, now, imagine if you can, the punch vs. the stick upon your solar plexus. 1/5 the force with a stick will have as much penetration as a full force punch.

This arguing over force, concentration, magnification, etc. is semantics. The EFFECT is greater with a SD stick.

Now, what WERE THE HOLES IN MY STORY AGAIN?

On Edit: I get 19 inches over an uppercut and about fourteen on an uppercut - for the same amount of PENETRATION - thus EFFECTIVENESS. ROUGH MEASUREMENTS.


Here I am, documenting the figures in what I write and all you have to say is "there are holes in my story'. What holes?

BTW, kubotans were very popular circa late 1980's early 1990's, but I didn't want to carry a weapon (for legal reasons) so I, after seeing that a sharpie would do almost as well, started practicing with one. Nearest weapon nearest target type strikes.

-The holes are your complete lack of understanding physics.

 

[RoninPimp]

Did you read my post? Meters (inexpensive Martial art's meters, at least) will only show the TOTAL FORCE of the strike (engineering meters can tell much more). 1/5th the force gave me greater penetration, magnification of effectiveness, concentration, etc.

Again, where are the holes in my story? You seem to be implying that I am lying. Since I was unsure of myself on the amount of extension gained, without sacrificing effectiveness, I measured it for you and described the procedure used.

I used lighter force than I could have because I am in my late thirties and the person was a kid about 17 and I did not want to go to jail - possible, even though I was not the aggressor and he had a documented past of taunting me while I was on my breaks at work - playing chicken with his bicycle against me, etc. (I go for walks on my breaks). It was a touchy issue for me because of the age differences (not size as I am short) and the almost certain job repercussions that going all-out would have entailed.

Again, your assertions regarding SD sticks are unproven, untested and demonstrably false to anyone with ANY training whatsoever with the items.

You can't back up your arguments against SD sticks, you won't TEST them, yet you remain stalwart in your position. That's bullshido - intellectual and academic martial arts. Unproven, untested, dogmatic.

-Your "test" is a subjective joke.

 

[RoninPimp]

What i am seeing, is our friend here offering up statements based on the same(and in some cases less than) logic and theory from experience (or lack thereof) that he hopes to dispel.

Let us hope that RP's ability to choose his battles in the real world is better than his ability to do so online, otherwise someone could be writing his early obituatary one of these days.

-Thanks for your concern, but I'll be just fine...

 

[Flatlander]

Second Moderator Warning:

Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Keep this discussion at a mature, respectful level.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT SuperMod-

 

[Don Roley]

-Strategically pocket sticks just don't fit for civilians. Empty hands are perfectly sutable to non life threatning situations. To use more is asking for legal trouble. If you are justified to use lethal force in an SD situation, why choose a pocket stick? Why not a club, knife, or firearm? They all provide reliable lethal force. The pocket stick does not.

Tactically, a pocket stick adds little. It has none of the leverage a longer stick does. Getting hit with one will hurt. It will likely draw blood quicker than empty hands. It will not stop a determined attacker.

Ok, there is so many false premisis in the above that this will take some time to deal with.

First of all, your underlying assumption seems to be that the mugger will come up and say something like,

Hello, my name is George and I will be your attacker tonight. The speciality for the attack is knives and fists- more specifically a Gerber Guardian. After you ready yourself and your own weapon I will start the first course.

Yes I am being silly- but I am trying to illustrate a point.

FBI statisitics show that a vast majority of violent attackers talk to their victim before attacking. This is sometimes called the "interview" as a person tries to see if they can distract you or if you are a easy target.

Furthermore, the act of pulling a knife out in the midst of a grappling situation is so common that it is being taught in prisons and is known as the Jacknife in prison slang.

So you see the idea of knowing what level of violence is going to be justified and being prepared enough to deploy your weapon is a dangerous ground to build on.

The weapons you listed sometimes can't be legally carried. If you show them or deploy them, you run the risk of facing at least a charge of brandishing a weapon. So if someone asks you for directions, or for pocket change or any other distraction and then tries an attack- you will never get to those weapons in time to help. In that case the thing you can legally have in your hand is a flashlight and that may be all you have.

If it is dark, or dim, then there is no suspicious behavior in having a flashlight out and ready. It is not a threat to others in the eyes of the law. If some panhandler keeps coming toward you, you can legally turn the full brightness of the surefire on him without legal problems. That alone can stop some folks from thinking they can take you down as an easy target. If they are blinded by the light, they can't really know what else you have or what you are doing. And if they do press the attack, you have the flashlight already in your hand and ready to go as compared to that pistol still in its holster.

The law generally does not classify a small flashlight as a weapon in the same sense as a stick or knife, etc. If you are facing an unarmed attacker and use it, you are in better legal ground. This is my impression and not to be taken as legal advice. You can honestly say that you had the flashlight in your hand when the other guy attacked you and that is why you used it on the guy. You have a reason to have that in your hand before violence starts. Legally, you can't say that about a knife or even pepper spray in many cases.

If someone comes at me across the parking lot screaming about he is going to kill me- I will grab my knife over just the flashlight. But when things are not that clear from the start- which is the majority of cases, the first thing in my hand is probably the flashlight.

And I do not see how you can say,

It will not stop a determined attacker.

and yet earlier say,

Empty hands are perfectly sutable to non life threatning situations.

If a metal flashlight will not do the job- how can the bare hand do any better against a determined attacker?