surefire flashlights...

[MardiGras Bandit]

Leaving aside the question of effectivness, how bright are these lights? My personal experience with LEDs is that they are bright to look into, but throw off absolutely no light past a few feet.

Can anyone take a picture of a Surefire beam and a Maglight beam lading on something for comparison? I can't belive the cost of a Surefire is justified when there are many decent lights for almost $100 cheaper.

 

[Shinkengata]

Leaving aside the question of effectivness, how bright are these lights? My personal experience with LEDs is that they are bright to look into, but throw off absolutely no light past a few feet.

Can anyone take a picture of a Surefire beam and a Maglight beam lading on something for comparison? I can't belive the cost of a Surefire is justified when there are many decent lights for almost $100 cheaper.

The cost of a surefire is justified depending on your needs and your scope of quality. Many Surefire flashlights incorporate very good materials in their construction, such as a Lexan lens and aerospace grade aluminum casings. Surefire is also known for its flawless beams. That means no dead or weak spots in the beam. Many also incorporate some quite interesting features, such as 5 or 6 levels of light output control.

As far as SD purposes are concerned, there are always useful applications. The strike bezel no doubt causes a nice gash if struck in the head, so a good smack to the forehead with one and the guy could have blood gushing down into his eyes. Or a nice hammering strike just below the nose would no doubt make a believer out of someone. You can also slam it into the solar plexus, and anyone who knows will tell you that getting hit in the solar plexus will knock the wind out of you. And let's not forget the fact that you can always flash the guy in the eyes, and trust me, a surefire will definitely cause some temporary blindness.

 

[Apollo]

So, what I'm reading here is, if you want to try and go for temporary blindness, get a surefire, but if it's simply a solid heavy object to hit with, any solidly built light will do. Or have I missed something?

 

[Phil Elmore]

So, what I'm reading here is, if you want to try and go for temporary blindness, get a surefire, but if it's simply a solid heavy object to hit with, any solidly built light will do. Or have I missed something?

Yes, that's about the gist of it.

 

[Blindside]

If people have technical questions about flashlights, like brightness, throw, battery life, etc, well, lets just say these guys are a little bit obsessed.... and really smart and technical.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/

 

[Phil Elmore]

Every hobby area has its "one percenters" -- the obsessives who know more about the technical aspects than do everyon else. I'd say CPF is the home for most of the flashlight one-percenters out there.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So, one could say they are a really bright bunch?

 

[SFC JeffJ]

So, one could say they are a really bright bunch?

groannnnnnnnnn

 

[RoninPimp]

Every hobby area has its "one percenters" -- the obsessives who know more about the technical aspects than do everyon else. I'd say CPF is the home for most of the flashlight one-percenters out there.

-See, I can agree with Phil E. Candlepower Forums is info central for flashlights and LED tech.

 

[Carol]

-See, I can agree with Phil E. Candlepower Forums is info central for flashlights and LED tech.

RoninPimp, you made a point early on in the thread that IMO is worth repeating as it sort of got lost - that using a flashlight can be seen as an escalation in the eyes of law enforcement.

Could you please clarify something for me? There are two ways that one could potentially use a flashlight...as a pocket stick, or as a bright light.

Can you see shining a bright light in a person's face being a point of escalation? Logically I do not see it that way, but generally logical and generally legal are not always the same things.

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

I love forums! These are among the subjects I have learned a great deal about from forums populated by obsessed people:

Martial Arts
Cockfighting
Nerf Gun Modding
Model Making
Urban Exploration
Shotguns
Politics
Zombie Games

Whenever I have an obscure question that need answering, I find a forum. Forum people are great, even the ones who don't like me. :boing2:

 

[Cryozombie]

No offense to anyone here... but I'm reletivly certain that this will **** you up if I punch you in the face with it once or twice.

And yes, its a Pocket stick...

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

The ever elegant Don Rearic wrote a rather interesting article on such things. http://www.donrearic.com/koppostick.html

It details the use, and effectiveness of a "pocket stick" as well as contains several diagrams and photos.

 

[DuneViking]

Wow, way too much $ for me. I happen to have a second job in the summer, security as a park ranger dealing with drunken malcontents or kids drunk and ticked off at life.

I use maglights, mini and 3-4cell. I prefer the new metal hydride cells to decrease weight too. I don't use the mini as a security weapon. The small mini does increase pressure (force = mass x accelleration; pressure = force per unit area. As Ronin said, it can't increase force, I presume meters must measure increased pressure-heck these aren't my rules, simple physics) but using such also limits my tools in that hand (strike only) without a benefit to cost ratio I am willing to accept. Again I have to agree with Ronin, if I could take an opponent with the mini, I could probably take him easier without it due to increased flexibility in my toolbox.

The full mag, while able to club, is also a most effective subdual device, like an arnis/escrima/police night stick. In my experience, a much better bang for the buck-plus when used to subdue by enhancing armlocks etc, there is much less chance to causing injury than a strike (when practiced and controlled) and can be effective in blocking an edged weapon. It is also highly visible and acts as a great deterrent, and with fresh batteries, is plenty bright.

The minis can cause severe damage in the right spot, too much on areas like the temple etc, and require specific training and practice. They can definately lead to issues with law enforcment, especialy when obviously enhanced for combat. However, they may be a choice for one of slight build to aid in escaping a potentially dangerous/deadly situation when used at the eyes, temple pressure points with proper and extensive training.

As for my experience, started TKD in '73, and I have a few stripes on my BB. We called the sheriff in 10 times last year, most ever. I have worked this job for 3 seasons, '97, '98, '05.

 

[Phil Elmore]

The use of any weapon or implement of any kind can be seen as an escalation of force. Even confronting someone instead of simply giving in or running away (even when running away is not a realistic option) could be seen as an escalation of force. Generally speaking, using a force mulitplier (a flashlight, a knife, a pocket stick, a gun, etc.) is justified when you face the imminent threat of bodily harm and you cannot reasonably expect to meet the threat offered with your bare hands alone. This could be a multiple assailant scenario, a scenario in which you are attacked by surprise and thus immediately at a disadvantage (suddenly fighting for your life), a scenario in which your attacker is clearly bigger or otherwise more powerful than you, etc. It depends on context and, as always, your judgment as a "reasonable person" in the eyes of the law will come into play.

Those who dismiss the use of force multipliers -- whatever they may be -- on the grounds that the legal threat makes their use impossible are simply preaching unrealistic defeatism.

 

[Blindside]

The full mag, while able to club, is also a most effective subdual device, like an arnis/escrima/police night stick. In my experience, a much better bang for the buck-plus when used to subdue by enhancing armlocks etc, there is much less chance to causing injury than a strike (when practiced and controlled) and can be effective in blocking an edged weapon. It is also highly visible and acts as a great deterrent, and with fresh batteries, is plenty bright.

You might consider this LED conversion for your D-cell maglite, it on the average brighter than the originial, sturdier (can't break a filament by beating on some guy), and your batteries will last WAAAY longer.

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/diamond_magbulbs3w.htm

Lamont

 

[RoninPimp]

I have converted all my MagLites to LED. I would recomend it to everyone.

 

[RoninPimp]

RoninPimp, you made a point early on in the thread that IMO is worth repeating as it sort of got lost - that using a flashlight can be seen as an escalation in the eyes of law enforcement.

Could you please clarify something for me? There are two ways that one could potentially use a flashlight...as a pocket stick, or as a bright light.

Can you see shining a bright light in a person's face being a point of escalation? Logically I do not see it that way, but generally logical and generally legal are not always the same things.

-I do not know current laws on this. I would personally feel it was an aggresive action if a stranger shined a light in my face. So they better have a good reason. I would not be surprised if local laws soon addressed this as flashlights get smaller and brighter. The lawmakers would probably include handheld lasers in their legislation too.

 

[RoninPimp]

A force, unapplied, is just that. An object accelerates and picks up momentum. How the force is applied makes ALL of the difference. When one concentrates the application of that force, one is applying the force more effectively.

The reverse of the principle is why people do ukemi. Would you say that since the force of a fall is the same regardless of application, that people don't need to know ukemi?

In both situations, the actual force (F), takes a backseat to application.

Also, I disagree with your point about these things not causing too much trauma. I've grappled with my jujutsu teacher while he held one of these things and I couldn't do a darn thing because he would push it into a pressure point and bring on a whole new world of pain. I wasn't being struck with it, yet, my body had some of the darkest bruises I've ever had. I doubt you could strike someone with this without seriously hurting someone. That 12 fold increase in applied force is no joke...

-I would say that your instructors ability to cause you pain while grappling was due to his controling position. Whether he had a pocket stick or not. I would say learning how to put someone in a controling position is the critical component. The pocket stick would add damage for sure once there, but in the civilian SD context it would be unecessary and potentially a legal headache.

Edited to add: Its probably best that this thread stay flashlight focussed and pocket stick arguments on the new thread.