Style bashing

Tony Dismukes

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I know exactly what BJJ consists of and I still would prefer to stand in a fight. I don't to get up and run when I see his buddies coming. I want to already be on my feet moving. Like I said though that's my opinion. I still think it's a great art. I would love to do a competition one day.
That's a legitimate preference, although there are times when keeping your opponent down is a good tactic. Nevertheless, 2/3 of my examples were concerned with how to safely get back to your feet when you end up on the ground involuntarily. When I'm teaching BJJ from a self-defense standpoint, those skills are my first priority. Going to the ground voluntarily (if appropriate in the given situation) comes later.
 

Gerry Seymour

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My main argument against BJJ and ground fighting in general (not all BJJ is all ground fighting) is I would never engage in a "jujitsu match" in a barroom or any other similarly crowed area (concert, outdoor festival, etc.). While I was bar tending, I noticed a disturbing trend...

Others would tend to watch and let people fight it out when both people were on their feet. Once it went to the ground, it turned into a free for all with one or the other guy usually getting a foot or bottle to their head.

My theory is people tended to let it be a "fair fight" when both guys were on their feet, and then feel like someone's had enough when it goes to the ground and feel like they have to jump in. I haven't been to those bars in 15 years or so, so maybe things changed since. Maybe that's how it goes where I live and I'm living in some odd bubble. Most likely not to either one of those though.
My review of videos of fights (and attacks that turned into fights) on the street saw some of the same. Often, once a dominant position was created, an interested third party (and occasionally an uninterested one who didn't understand what was going on) stepped in and grabbed, punched, or kicked (or in some cases beat with a purse). That being the case, I want my dominant position to be standing, if at all possible, where I have a better chance of dealing with those.

I teach ground pins and locks, because sometimes they are the best answer. I teach ground grappling because sometimes we end up on the ground and need to control things there. I teach ground escapes because who wants to stay there?
 

drop bear

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People sell stuff all the time with little or no proof of effectiveness and especially where the benefits are subjective (the heaĺth and beauty industry for example) it takes experts to test and disprove claims of effectiveness.

Also I stand by my earlier comment that a few months of genuine serious research would probably be enough to at least give a valid answer to the "what qualifies you to say this?" question.

So a different question. If your not willing to put the work in, the definition why should anyone who is listen to you?

Hey man just try it. Maybe you will like it.

If claims of I have tried it with no other qualification of authenticity apply then I am qualified. An expectation of providing actual evidence shoot me in the foot as much as anyone.
 

drop bear

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Most of those arguments could be made about any grappling. The question is how possible is it to remain standing. The argument that a huge proportion of fights go to the ground doesn't hold up against any evidence I can find, except perhaps for LEO. But there is a lot of evidence that fights/attacks go to the ground often, and often without the consent of at least one of the involved parties. Now, with standing grappling experience, I'm less likely to end up on the ground than someone without standing grappling experience. But that still doesn't help once I end up there. I'm not interested in the full range of BJJ groundwork, but the basics of control and escape are well suited to defensive use, IMO.

You finish people easier on the ground. If you are worried about multiple attackers. You have to be able to finish guys.

If you are handing ko,s out like candy. Stay standing. If you are not at some point the fight will get turned around.

Me I don't hand out ko,s like candy and my self defence method reflects that. I put a guy on the ground I get free shots. But I don't use a hits method I use a MMA one which has a different order of priorities.

The thing is the order of priorities rely on being able to out grapple the other guy. So hoping the bjjer has not had a ten minute discussion discussing situational priorities is pretty ambitious.

So I do the BJJ to gain the skill set to have more than hope on my side.
 

Axiom

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My main argument against BJJ and ground fighting in general (not all BJJ is all ground fighting) is I would never engage in a "jujitsu match" in a barroom or any other similarly crowed area (concert, outdoor festival, etc.). While I was bar tending, I noticed a disturbing trend...

Others would tend to watch and let people fight it out when both people were on their feet. Once it went to the ground, it turned into a free for all with one or the other guy usually getting a foot or bottle to their head.

My theory is people tended to let it be a "fair fight" when both guys were on their feet, and then feel like someone's had enough when it goes to the ground and feel like they have to jump in. I haven't been to those bars in 15 years or so, so maybe things changed since. Maybe that's how it goes where I live and I'm living in some odd bubble. Most likely not to either one of those though.

A seasoned BJJ guy can simply grab a persons neck and choke him while standing, so I think the groundfighting part is a bit misunderstood.
 

JR 137

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A seasoned BJJ guy can simply grab a persons neck and choke him while standing, so I think the groundfighting part is a bit misunderstood.
In my original post, I said "...(not all BJJ is all ground fighting)" I know many BJJers can apply a lot of things on their feet.

To be honest, and yes, I'm a karate guy; the most effective defense for a guy who's outsized and outstrengthed (is that a word?) in a fight is probably standing grappling/choking. That's assuming he/she's very proficient in it. It takes far less strength to blood choke out an attacker than a KO by punching or kicking. But both are highly skilled, um... skills.

For the reasons @Tony Dismukes stated, it's obviously very advantageous to be versed in BJJ. He said what I was thinking, only he's far more articulate and experienced with it.

I spent from 3rd grade all through high school wrestling, and another 10 years on and off coaching it on the mat (not just standing around barking orders). I know the benefits of being able to fight on the ground quite well. I also know it's limitations. I'd never willingly "roll" in the middle of the pub, concert floor, etc. An intruder in my home where I knew I wasn't going to get someone else coming in, I'd most likely use my wrestling skill set and "ground & pound" or try for a choke than use my karate skill set and take my chances going toe to toe. I'd probably do the same if I was outsized in an MMA match and knew my opponent wasn't a proficient BJJer or judoka.

An appropriate time and place for everything.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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It takes far less strength to blood choke out an attacker than a KO by punching or kicking.
If you

- beak your opponent's nose by your punch, or
- break his ribs by your kick,

your opponent will never be your friend again. You may have to go to jail, or pay his medical bill.

If you tap him out by your "head lock", you and him can still be friend after that. The reason is simple. Your opponent knows that you can kill him but you didn't. That can make a big difference.

A: Can we stop here and be friendly?
B: Yes! Please stop right here. Thanks for not killing me.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Probably choosing life.
What can be more fun than style bashing?

- SC has no ground game.
- Long fist has too many forms.
- Baji has no speed training.
- Preying mantis has no power training.
- WC doesn't have body rotation.
- Taiji is too slow.
- XingYi is too linear.
- Bagua circle walking is all wrong.
- Boxing has no kick.
- MT has no throw.
- BJJ has no punch.
- ...
 

drop bear

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What can be more fun than style bashing?

- SC has no ground game.
- Long fist has too many forms.
- Baji has no speed training.
- Preying mantis has no power training.
- WC doesn't have body rotation.
- Taiji is too slow.
- XingYi is too linear.
- Bagua circle walking is all wrong.
- Boxing has no kick.
- MT has no throw.
- BJJ has no punch.
- ...

Exactly.
 

JR 137

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If you

- beak your opponent's nose by your punch, or
- break his ribs by your kick,

your opponent will never be your friend again. You may have to go to jail, or pay his medical bill.

If you tap him out by your "head lock", you and him can still be friend after that. The reason is simple. Your opponent knows that you can kill him but you didn't. That can make a big difference.

A: Can we stop here and be friendly?
B: Yes! Please stop right here. Thanks for not killing me.
If I break an intruder's nose or jaw, I highly doubt I'll have problems justifying my actions. After all, someone I don't know broke into my home.

Most other circumstances, you're absolutely correct. Or I absolutely agree, and we're both wrong :)
 

Gerry Seymour

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I'd amend that statement:. I would use it on the street to stay standing, or to stand back up if I cannot stay standing.
Agreed. I have those tools (to stay standing) from NGA, for the most part. If I didn't, I'd use BJJ for that, too.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I can't find any BJJ clip that address in this area. Do you know any?
It's harder to find clips of the actual transition to standing, though there are some. But every escape/sweep gains position for a move to standing, and takedowns to side control are good training for keeping position when you're going down so you can get up.
 

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