STOP THE TAKEDOWN! - Wing Chun / JKD / Tai Chi

[Hong Kong Pooey]

i think that definition may be unique to you. I've never heard anyone else use the term that way. I've always used "takedown" for any move which puts the other guy on the ground, whether it's a throw, trip, tackle, wrist lock, or whatever. I suppose it might seem more logical to refer to such a technique as a "putdown" except a) that term is already taken for something else and b) language isn't logical.

You talk a lot of sense a lot of the time Tony, and I enjoy reading and sometimes learn something from your posts.

But having said all that, and with all due respect, you come from a country that doesn't even use the word football correctly, so...

 

[Hanzou]

I think these vids are helpful because it shows takedowns (Bjj) in action, how swiftly a trained grappler can adjust to changes in posture and counter attacking, and how quickly the submission can occur if you have little to no grappling experience;

 

[drop bear]

I think these vids are helpful because it shows takedowns (Bjj) in action, how swiftly a trained grappler can adjust to changes in posture and counter attacking, and how quickly the submission can occur if you have little to no grappling experience;

Change levels though.

 

[LFJ]

I think these vids are helpful because it shows takedowns (Bjj) in action, how swiftly a trained grappler can adjust to changes in posture and counter attacking, and how quickly the submission can occur if you have little to no grappling experience;

No grappling experience, in this case for sure. Fake kung fu guy too? He was using Bruce Lee's movie style. Had all the mannerisms down though. He let the guy get too close to him, or got too close to the guy without any sort of strategy. Barely lasted 30 seconds each round.

 

[drop bear]

No grappling experience, in this case for sure. Fake kung fu guy too? He was using Bruce Lee's movie style. Had all the mannerisms down though. He let the guy get too close to him, or got too close to the guy without any sort of strategy. Barely lasted 30 seconds each round.

In general it is hard to counter. There are specific strategies that work. And that has a lot to do with timing.

Looking at it people are going to suggest he didn't defend at all. But you get caught out that is exactly what happens.

Still happens to me and I do grappling.

 

[LFJ]

Looking at it people are going to suggest he didn't defend at all. But you get caught out that is exactly what happens.

Yup, I'm not saying he didn't defend, but that he was clueless and got caught not knowing how. In the first clip, he allowed the guy to get very close while just standing there as if they would only be exchanging punches or something. It was obvious before it happened that the grappler was gonna pounce right then. He looked experienced only in jogging around imitating Bruce Lee in the mirror.

 

[Hanzou]

Yup, I'm not saying he didn't defend, but that he was clueless and got caught not knowing how. In the first clip, he allowed the guy to get very close while just standing there as if they would only be exchanging punches or something. It was obvious before it happened that the grappler was gonna pounce right then. He looked experienced only in jogging around imitating Bruce Lee in the mirror.

He did a good job stopping the DLT in the third clip. The problem was that the grappler simply broke down his posture instead, and ended up taking his back (which is actually a lot worse than the position he would have landed in had the DLT been successful). The vid in the OP makes it seem like you stop the DLT, you stop the takedown, not realizing that in most cases, the takedown doesn't stop, but merely transitions into another takedown attempt.

In the end, if you're really concerned about grappling, you should really consider cross-training.

 

[LFJ]

In the end, if you're really concerned about grappling, you should really consider cross-training.

Agreed. I think VT+BJJ is a smart combo. I spend more of my time on VT though, because in most street situations intentionally going to the ground will lead to more harm than good for yourself. But knowing what to do to avoid being taken down, and what to do if you are there is certainly important. Most real fight videos we see end up in the clinch within seconds.

 

[geezer]

Agreed. I think VT+BJJ is a smart combo. I spend more of my time on VT though, because in most street situations intentionally going to the ground will lead to more harm than good for yourself. But knowing what to do to avoid being taken down, and what to do if you are there is certainly important. Most real fight videos we see end up in the clinch within seconds.

I don't know any BJJ yet, but the way the BJJ guy took the kung fu guy down seemed very close to stuff I learned in wrestling some 45 years ago. Not only the double leg in clip 1, but the back heel drop in clip 2. And you can take somebody down without staying down yourself. Or throw them down and stay standing. So it looks like really good stuff to me. And if you do choose to follow them down, my old wrestling experience would not prepare me in the least to deal with all those submissions. Basically, I guess I'm saying that even though Hanzou can be really annoying about how he shamelessly brags on BJJ ...I'm beginning to think he's got a point. A really strong point.

 

[LFJ]

I don't know any BJJ yet,

I think something like the Gracie Combatives course is good, particularly things like the punch block series when you're on your back, and just basic knowledge of positional control and escapes. Beyond that a lot of BJJ becomes sportive and unsafe for street use. I wouldn't use it offensively, but if caught on the ground and you know nothing, you're as good as dead/broken/asleep.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

He did a good job stopping the DLT in the third clip. The problem was that the grappler simply broke down his posture instead, and ended up taking his back (which is actually a lot worse than the position he would have landed in had the DLT been successful). The vid in the OP makes it seem like you stop the DLT, you stop the takedown, not realizing that in most cases, the takedown doesn't stop, but merely transitions into another takedown attempt.

This is an important point. Thinking that you don't have to worry about being taken down because you have learned a counter is like thinking you don't have to worry about being punched because you've learned a block.

The guys who are good at throws and takedowns practice all the time against other guys who are good at stopping throws and takedowns. They train with the assumption that their opponent will try to stop them and they learn to flow from one attack into the next when their first move gets countered.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know any BJJ yet, but the way the BJJ guy took the kung fu guy down seemed very close to stuff I learned in wrestling some 45 years ago. Not only the double leg in clip 1, but the back heel drop in clip 2. And you can take somebody down without staying down yourself. Or throw them down and stay standing. So it looks like really good stuff to me. And if you do choose to follow them down, my old wrestling experience would not prepare me in the least to deal with all those submissions. Basically, I guess I'm saying that even though Hanzou can be really annoying about how he shamelessly brags on BJJ ...I'm beginning to think he's got a point. A really strong point.

That guy is legitimately better than your average bjjer by the way.

You go down with them to make sure they go down otherwise you can hit that throw and they can scramble on you. And being on top on the ground is an advantage. Even a couple of seconds could give you three or four uncontested shots. It is a factor you may have to consider if you are struggling with the stand up.

If you are really discussing the street. How many uncontested hits can people generally take?

 

[Hanzou]

I think something like the Gracie Combatives course is good, particularly things like the punch block series when you're on your back, and just basic knowledge of positional control and escapes. Beyond that a lot of BJJ becomes sportive and unsafe for street use. I wouldn't use it offensively, but if caught on the ground and you know nothing, you're as good as dead/broken/asleep.

He's looking at a Relson Gracie school. Those academies should teach Gracie Combatives in their fundamental classes.

 

[drop bear]

And on that theme. If you go to a new style learn that style. Don't try to trick your way out by throwing in the stuff from your old style. You are going there for a reason get your moneys worth.

If you have just manhandled everybody in the room with whatever you have learnt previously. That is a different story.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think something like the Gracie Combatives course is good, particularly things like the punch block series when you're on your back, and just basic knowledge of positional control and escapes. Beyond that a lot of BJJ becomes sportive and unsafe for street use. I wouldn't use it offensively, but if caught on the ground and you know nothing, you're as good as dead/broken/asleep.

Absolutely just learn it from a competent instructor and not from video. That way you do not miss the details and have someone correct you. The punch block series in conjunction with knowing how to sprawl, reguard, bump and roll, Pass the guard or stand up from the guard, clinch, etc. is all pretty fundamental grappling that all martial artists should be interested in.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah, don't learn it from a video. Rener and Ryron are great guys, and great teachers, but that online belt stuff really bothers me.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I don't know any BJJ yet, but the way the BJJ guy took the kung fu guy down seemed very close to stuff I learned in wrestling some 45 years ago. Not only the double leg in clip 1, but the back heel drop in clip 2. And you can take somebody down without staying down yourself. Or throw them down and stay standing. So it looks like really good stuff to me. And if you do choose to follow them down, my old wrestling experience would not prepare me in the least to deal with all those submissions. Basically, I guess I'm saying that even though Hanzou can be really annoying about how he shamelessly brags on BJJ ...I'm beginning to think he's got a point. A really strong point.

From the little I know about BJJ, it seems to teach flowing from one movement to another when resistance is met or a technique is thwarted; its about structure, and leverage versus pure force against force. If I was ever going to cross train in another art, it likely would be BJJ for that reason. However, for me, I doubt this would happen because learning ONE art as an adult with a career and family is an uphill battle enough as it is. Theres only so much time in the day and I would think my WT would serve me better if attacked by an angry drunk guy in a bar or some punk on the street. I suppose I could always just ask my BJJ friend who is a blue belt to show me some basics.

I hear conflicting opinions from different WC / WT guys about stuff like cross training. There seems to be the "Wing Chun is a complete system and has everything you would ever need" attitude (my paraphrasing). Some admit there is value in cross training in other systems as long as it doesn't fly in the face of WC/WT principles (cautious but logical), others like Jin Young (ChinaBoxer on YouTube) think WC and BJJ actually complement one another as seperate but harmonious arts (intriguing perspective in my opinion).

 

[Vajramusti]

Wing chun training can vary. For me working on and with good wing chun structure and dynamics and foot work prepares me for takedowns as well.
Yup- have tried it so have my best students and wing chun brothers.

 

[geezer]

...If I was ever going to cross train in another art, it likely would be BJJ for that reason. However, for me, I doubt this would happen because learning ONE art as an adult with a career and family is an uphill battle enough as it is. Theres only so much time in the day...

That's really the truth.

 

[drop bear]

From the little I know about BJJ, it seems to teach flowing from one movement to another when resistance is met or a technique is thwarted; its about structure, and leverage versus pure force against force. If I was ever going to cross train in another art, it likely would be BJJ for that reason. However, for me, I doubt this would happen because learning ONE art as an adult with a career and family is an uphill battle enough as it is. Theres only so much time in the day and I would think my WT would serve me better if attacked by an angry drunk guy in a bar or some punk on the street. I suppose I could always just ask my BJJ friend who is a blue belt to show me some basics.

I hear conflicting opinions from different WC / WT guys about stuff like cross training. There seems to be the "Wing Chun is a complete system and has everything you would ever need" attitude (my paraphrasing). Some admit there is value in cross training in other systems as long as it doesn't fly in the face of WC/WT principles (cautious but logical), others like Jin Young (ChinaBoxer on YouTube) think WC and BJJ actually complement one another as seperate but harmonious arts (intriguing perspective in my opinion).

I still don't get the principles idea. It either works or it doesn't. I would have thought the principles would follow the technique not the other way around.