Did Bruce get it right?

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by DanT, Apr 21, 2018.

  1. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    He said he taught Jun Fan Gung Fu, he school was called the Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute. He wanted to further his Martial Arts training and gradually incorporate other techniques into it which would later become Jeet Kune Do. I don't understand people's problem with this method. I much prefer this approach opposed to schools marketing themselves as one style when there are hardly any elements of said style in their curriculum.

    In FMA, instructors will change there system's name even if there's a shift on emphasis. Meaning, there's not even much of a change in techniques, just focus.

    Lee on the other hand heavily modified Wing Chun and incorporated many other styles into his own.
     
  2. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    Though JKD is a actual style nowadays and is legit, I think Bruce approached JKD as more of a concept. Meaning, he incorporated what worked for him. Bruce was interested in teaching and wanted to try and revolutionize Martial Arts. Yes, he did train with champions and the best of their respective arts, but this was to gain knowledge and further himself. That doesn't mean he wasn't interested in having students.
     
  3. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If you teach strategies/principles and if you don't care which MA style that technique may come from as long as it fits the strategy/principle, the name of the style will have no meaning.

    For example, if you teach strategies/principles such as

    - Kick low, punch high.
    - Attack left then attack right.
    - A punch is a punch followed by a pull.
    - Jam your opponent's space and don't give him enough space to generate power and speed.
    - Guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm.
    - Use straight line to deal with circle. Use circle to deal with straight line.
    - Attack both legs if you can, otherwise sttack one leg then attack the other leg.
    - Attack in one direction, you then attack the opposite direction.
    - Lead your opponent into the emptiness.
    - Try to be as heavy as a mountain. Also try to be as light as a feather.
    - Encourage your opponent to move in but don't allow him to move out.
    - ...

    IMO, it's much easier to train MA by using principle/strategy instead of using "style".
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  4. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

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    Wing Tsun doesn't need to be fixed. Practitioners need to be fixed, training methods need to be fixed, applications need to be fixed, lack of sparring and pressure testing needs to be fixed, training incest needs to be fixed. But none of these issues or specifically those issues DanT mentioned in the OP are faults of the system, they are faults of the practitioners.

    This is a list of personal problems that must be addressed, because the system is not designed or taught that way (*SHOULDN'T* be taught that way, at least!). These mistakes fall under the "User Error" category. They could also be the result of poor instruction.

    - Lack of mobile footwork - Practice!
    - Lack of head movement - Beginner mistakes
    - Lack of body strength - Work out!
    - Lack of overall body conditioning - Work out!
    - Lack of takedown defence - Failure to teach/practice; it's in the system
    - Lack of ground fighting ability - ground defense and anti-grappling have always been in the system but are often neglected. However, the ground is not where you want to be in a real fight/self defense/combat scenario. P.S.: Chi Sao works on the ground, too.
    - Lack of punching power - Poor technique, bad instruction, train harder
    - Lack of diversity of attacks - Beginner mentality; Failure to understand the system
    - Lack of positional skills - Poor training
    - Lack of fluidity - Poor training
     
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  5. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    Those are all good points. One thing that I've noticed is that when pressure tested, WC fails as is taught in the traditional sense. So from there people start to modify it which it then becomes an issue of style/mechanics and whether it's still WC. WC can't be everything. Also, when you do modify it, you're changing some of the structure of it, which many schools emphasize as the key attribute of WC. It's a slippery slope.
     
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  6. DanT

    DanT 2nd Black Belt

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    By their fruits you will know them. The above that I posted is a representation of 95% of Wing Chun. It's an issue engrained in the way the system is largely practiced. Perhaps you or I have a way of training that does not contain those issues, however that is not true for a majority of the Wing Chun population.
     
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  7. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    I love WC despite not being an expert in it. I really appreciate all the classical arts. I'm sure at one place and one time they had their place. We have a good Tang Soo Do school within blocks of where I live that I'm often tempted to go to just because I can appreciate the art as it is. BUT, what i learned very quickly was don't try to make the art something it is not....if you wan to learn how to fight, join and MMA place/Krav Maga school or take up an art where you actually FIGHT. Forget what style it is. You learn to fight by fighting. You learn real quick what works and what doesn't. WC folks make far too many excuses for what it really is....hence the constant debate on the topic all over the internet. When pressure tested AS IS, WC fails in real world fighting. Period. WC IMO is best served by those that are taking the art and blending it. They see where it works and where it doesn't and will keep it functional.
     
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  8. macher

    macher Green Belt

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    I agree. I was having a discussion about Taiji being taught as a combat martial art to learn how to defend quickly. To me the responses were a lot of excuses like giving the student a ‘false impression’ they can utilize something and / or application of the form to make it functional.

    I’m not a WC expert but WC like any other CMA can be functional if taught to be functional instead of the practicing of the art. It might need to be modified in some ways like stances etc.
     
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  9. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

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    Well I (we) have a different approach to training. Our lineage (WT) has always been about application. I boxed and was a champion wrestler before WT, so it's natural to train in a sport combative fashion. And please don't misunderstand what I'm saying; changing the way you train isn't changing the system. If you sit around doing forms slowly listening to Tai Chi meditation music with incense burning and never spar, then that's a problem as far as skill and application goes. If you constantly pressure test it like we do, then it is functional "as is". I teach and train with UFC fighters. There's no need to blend WT with anything to make it work, you just need to train like a fighter. Like I said, the problem isn't with the art, it's with the practitioners.
     
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  10. macher

    macher Green Belt

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    I agree. Shouldn’t finding the right teacher be important too to train like a fighter?
     
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  11. macher

    macher Green Belt

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    Since you teach and train are you recommending for WC’ers to train with MMA fighters or similar?
     
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  12. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

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    I'm recommending for Chunners to cross train with everyone they can to learn to better apply their skills. If you want to learn to use your Wing Tsun to deal with kicks, go find some TKD or Muay Thai guys to cross train with. Want to learn how to deal with a boxer, go find a boxer. Walk into the BJJ school and roll with some of those guys using Chi Sao on the ground. Find you some MMA guys to cross train with, as they are generally well rounded, and usually love to find new training/sparring partners. You don't have to learn a new art to blend, but learn how to apply your art against a variety of different attacks. Be prepared to deal with anything. Spar often. Pressure test everything. That's how you will learn to be a good fighter with your Wing Tsun.
     
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  13. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

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    Very correct. Proper instruction is key, as with any art.
     
  14. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

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    Q: My friend said that a Wing Tsun fighter can't beat a boxer/MMA fighter/Blackbelt, is that true? Or can Wing Tsun beat (insert style here)?

    A: I will address both of these questions together, because the answer is basically the same. As far as the age old "style versus style" debate, it's not the style, but the practitioner that wins or loses. Yes, I feel that Wing Tsun gives you an advantage over many other styles... obviously I feel that way, because this is what I do, but the fact remains that it all boils down to the person in the fight. I've seen black belts get there *** kicked in bar fights by drunk untrained brawlers. That doesn't mean that their style sucks, it means that they weren't very good at applying it.

    The same thing with a Wing Tsun (or any other style) practitioner beating a boxer or MMA fighter. Those guys are professional athletes. Fighting is life. They are in top physical conditioning, they train twice a day, every day, for hours at a time. They clock more sparring hours in a month than most people do in ten years. They have more fights in a year than most people have in a lifetime. If you sit behind a desk all day, eat junk food, and go to your martial arts class 2 or 3 times a week for 2 hours, rarely spar and never fight, you probably shouldn't pick a fight with a professional fighter because your chances of winning are terribly slim. *HOWEVER*, if you train hard like an athlete, constantly spar and pressure test, go to every class, practice even when you're not in class, well then you kind of even out the playing field. It's not that (insert style here) can't beat a boxer or MMA fighter, it's that the average person isn't up to the task. The fault is not with the art. Boxers and UFC/MMA fighters are professional athletes and professional fighters, *most* people who casually train martial arts are not. If you aspire to get on that level, then we will help you get there.



    Q: I heard Wing Tsun doesn't have any ground fighting/grappling. What if I fight someone who trains Brazilian Ju Jitsu? Should I study a grappling art too, or a more "complete" style like MMA?

    A: First off, Wing Tsun DOES have ground defense and anti-grappling. Our WT lineage in particular is one of the few lineages that thoroughly explores and embraces grappling and ground fighting solutions. You will often hear us speak of "Forward Intent" when talking about technique application. Forward is just that, forward. It doesn't matter if you're standing up, laying on your back, or hanging upside down. Wing Tsun covers all 4 ranges of combat (kicking, punching, trapping, and grappling). We begin ground defense and anti-grappling right from the beginning. Being an experienced grappler and cross training with high level BJJ practitioners, I assure you that your techniques will work on the ground if you train for it. Since Wing Tsun is more geared towards real world self defense and street combat, ground grappling is not encouraged because in a street fight, that's where you die. If you're attacked in the street and you're rolling around on the ground trying to sink an armbar, you are wide open for the guys friends to stomp you into oblivion or pull a weapon, and there's not much you can do about it from down there, so the idea is to recover your footing and strategic position as quickly as possible. Also, takedowns on concrete or other hard surfaces pose their own set of problems and risks. When there is no ref, no rules, no mats, and the possibility of multiple and/or armed attackers, you never want to risk fighting on the ground if at all possible. Being a concept and principle based art, the only limitations on Wing Tsun are the practitioners ability to understand and correctly apply it. Some schools don't train this range because they simply do not have the skill or understanding to do so. We train for modern, real world scenarios, and ground fighting and takedowns are highly probable threats in a real attack. If you wish to train for MMA or sport combat, we can most definitely show you how to apply your Wing Tsun effectively on the ground. If you plan on joining the UFC, then you might want to explore other options as well since you are training for a specific platform, but in the real world you do not need any other style to make your Wing Tsun complete.
     
  15. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

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    His name in Cantonese was Lee Jun Fan. Jun Fan Gung Fu is like putting a sign that said "Bruce Lee's Kung Fu". The vast majority of what he taught though, was Wing Tsun, up to the point he learned in the system. That was on his sign too lol
     

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  16. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Any chance you have a sparring video of you rolling with BJJ guys? I've never heard of Chi Sao being effectively used on the ground, and have seen so many crappy 'anti grappling' things, it would be refreshing to see someone using a style like wing chun effectively in grappling.
     
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  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd even go a step further. That sign basically says, "Bruce's Kung Fu School: Instruction in Wing Chun for Self-Defense".
     
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  18. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

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    You are correct. Like "Harvard School of Law".

    Yes. Remember, forward intent just means forward. Doesn't matter if you're standing up, on your back, or hanging upside down, the concept remains the same.
     
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  19. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Bino, I love that clip. It's a great example of the right way to train with people from other arts and learning from each other. Also, you looked good on the floor, at least from my Wing Tsun perspective!

    BTW, I may be coming to Texas in July. PM me on how to contact you. Maybe we can get together to train, or at least for a beer. --Steve
     
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm about as far from a Wing Chun expert as a body can get, but that actually looked like something I'd recognize as Wing Chun. Nice control.123
     
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