Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

[GBlues]

Cryozombie I think that is wonderful! 20 dollars a month is a hell of alot better than 120 huh. I'm glad that you found some place that apparently you enjoy training and working out in. That's great. And it's sounds like it is very affordable, must be able to get alot of students in the classroom, give you alot of different body styles to work with. That's awesome.

 

[GBlues]

That may be I don't know. I only know what I have seen first hand, and what little bit of research I have done on my own. I wish I could to Japan and learn from Haatsumi ( hope I spelled his name right), but funds are sparse for that kind of thing you know. Plus work.
I know that my instructor learned from somebody he says that trained directly under Hayes. That's what I've been told. Now there are differences between what Hayes does on the videos, and what we do in class. Mostly small things, such as the way we punch, or strike is different, but the techinques for the most part are the same. So far. SO I don't know. I think it's kind of like when Bruce Lee died, alot of guys started spoutin off at the mouth about how they could stomp him. Easy to do when the guy is dead. And everything is like, that. I mean look at the big debate over Parker or tracy Kenpo. I've heard nasty things about both. How Parker Kenpo is not real Kenpo and Tracy's is better, so what. They look alot alike and the effect is basically the same. So are your friends right, could be. Are they angry maybe, I don't know. But in the martial arts world someone is always saying, " So and so isn't teaching traditional ninjutsu." Or Kenpo or taekwondo or kickboxing or whatever. Depends on your point of view. If you get something out of it, and enjoy it, what does it matter. Why, is it important whether, it's bujinkan or someone else's interpretation of bujinkan. Haatsumi doesn't practice or teach authentic bujinkan, he teaches his interpretation of it. Same as Dan Inosanto teaches his interpretation of jeet kune do.

 

[Kreth]

Haatsumi doesn't practice or teach authentic bujinkan, he teaches his interpretation of it.

I suggest some research before you post again. The Bujinkan is an umbrella organization created by Hatsumi sensei.

 

[kaizasosei]

i'm sorry but why should one change his art around just because 'people' can't handle it.? sounds a little pretentios to me.
who are 'people' anyhow??? surely some youngsters with lots of energy are more hardcore and able to handle much.
of course there will always be students that are no good?? to adapt a little to make things a bit easier without making a big deal, i can understand, but to change the art around and make up a new art that harbours little innovation or actual difference at all(other than being watered down). im sorry- i speak japanese quite well already, but what exactly does anshu mean?? i could still use some clarification on this point. maybe explain the kanji??
if i see someone is not talented i might well change the teachings around a bit for them sectretly. but to come right out and say ' people are too lazy or incapable of handeling the real thing-' sounds pretentios-even audacious to me.

just trying to retort and share my honest opinion. long have i kept silent.

 

[arnisador]

I suggest some research before you post again. The Bujinkan is an umbrella organization created by Hatsumi sensei.

Meanwhile, at Wikipedia they're trying to decide whether it's a ninjutsu style or not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bujinkan#RfC:_on_defanition_type_of_organisation

 

[Cryozombie]

Meanwhile, at Wikipedia they're trying to decide whether it's a ninjutsu style or not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bujinkan#RfC:_on_defanition_type_of_organisation

Yeah but...

any idiot can put anything into Wikipedia. I could log in and cite some website I create that says Arnis isnt even a martial art its a dance style. Would that make it true?

 

[arnisador]

Well, this is a more formal WP action (an RFC), attempting to come to a conclusion that's intended to stick and be semi-enforced.

 

[GBlues]

Well ok I'm sorry, let me put it to you this way Hatsumi doesn't teach authentic 5,000 year old ninjutsu, he teaches his interpretation of the ninjutsu he was taught, and now calls it bujinkan. You guys get to caught up in names. Who cares.
If a guy believes that the moon is made out of green cheese, should you try to destroy what he believes simply because it wrong? Or does it matter in the grand scheme of things? Probably not, and all it does is start an argument for no reason. If people want to believe they are learning a legit art, and you feel that it's not, so what? If they are learning self-defense, and it works for them shouldn't you just say ok cool, if you like it do it. I choose to learn from this guy, because I feel that he has what I'm looking for. No big deal.
But your like a bunch of little want a be gang bangers trying to claim your turf and mark your territory. I'm just trying to state a simple fact of martial arts. That no one in any style teaches authentic ( the way it was originally taught by the founder) martial arts!! They teach there interpretation of what it is they have been taught. So again if a guy calls Bujinkan, or Genbukan, or anything else what freaking difference does it make? Really? How much difference does it make. If all I wanted was to learn some outdoor survival skills, and some stealthy tactics, and self-defense and a green beret is teaching something like this and it is effective and works, does it really matter if he calls it ninjutsu. Probably not, cause I'm probably going to get the same basic stuff!!!!Techniques aren't ninjutsu, but the stealth and survival probably are, and are probably more effective than authentic ninjutsu, cause it's taught by our countries finest! It doesn't matter, simply put it doesn't matter.
If I get what I'm looking for and searching for, why does anybody out there give a ****! If I'm happy and other people are happy why do want to make other people miserable like yourselves. That's all you do. Make people miserable, because they were happy with what they were learning, and now, you have destroyed it. Does that make you feel good? Maybe they're instructor, really did go through the Bujinkan and learn hatsumi's style, and then decided they liked the idea of toshindo, and they taught, authentic ninjutsu under a quest center flag.
Now that person will leave there school, because you had a big mouth, had to ruin someones reputation. More importantly you had to ruin a students view of there instructor.

I see that everyone else can post links so here is one you can watch so you can see toshindo Blackbelt for yourselves. Ok?

Again after you watch it, does it matter what it is that he's learned seems like it probably works for him.

 

[Kreth]

Hatsumi doesn't teach authentic 5,000 year old ninjutsu, he teaches his interpretation of the ninjutsu he was taught, and now calls it bujinkan.

And this comment is based on your vast experience as a TSD white belt? :idunno:

I choose to learn from this guy, because I feel that he has what I'm looking for. No big deal.

Fantastic. You just happen to be the second TSD beginner in as many weeks to join this forum and post about how the Bujinkan sucks and TSD is the epitome of martial arts training.

But your like a bunch of little want a be gang bangers trying to claim your turf and mark your territory.

I suggest you check the forum rules. Personal attacks are a no-no...

 

[Cryozombie]

And this comment is based on your vast experience as a TSD white belt? :idunno:

Hey now, what gives you the right to say you know more, just because the blackness of your belt was earned thru many many years of study both here and in Japan.

:lfao:

 

[stephen]

1. I have a feeling the last post before yours on this thread has been around longer than you've been training.

2. White space is your friend on forums. Although I appreciate you at least putting some in between the words. Take the next step.

3.

As far as ukemi goes, no it's not the first skill that you learn, but it is given probably more time than some of the other things on the videos. It is still very much alive in toshindo, it's just that Anshu-Hayes, feels that you should be able to protect yourself and so should learn something useful to you outside of the school first.
Yeah, I'm walking down the road and a guy punches me in the face, I can roll, but on the way up what do I do now? Get kicked in the mouth, that's what.

Ukemi is more than Zenpo Kaiten: If you're getting punched in the face more than you're slipping on some ice or almost twisting an ankle on a curb you need to find new places to hang out.

 

[GBlues]

"Fantastic. You just happen to be the second TSD beginner in as many weeks to join this forum and post about how the Bujinkan sucks and TSD is the epitome of martial arts training."


WHAT!!!?????? I have never said that Bujinkan sucks!



"I suggest you check the forum rules. Personal attacks are a no-no"

I ain't sending out a personal attack on anyone. I'm just calling it like I see it. Sorry if you can't handle the truth. All I have done is make a very valid point. No one seems to get. I haven't had an answer to not one of the questions that I've asked so far. Instead your attacking me, that's fine, I don't care, and it doesn't offend me. People express there feelings and opinions in a muriad of ways. I guess this isn't the place that I thought it was. I see several people on this particular subject, and generally the same ones, and usually attacking anyone who is not Bujinkan. Spouting off how great there crap don't stink. I'm a beginner, in the art of toshindo, I make no bones about it. I'm not trying to hide it. Don't need too. I just think that you guys make too much of a big deal about what is in a name?

"And this comment is based on your vast experience as a TSD white belt? :idunno:"


No, this comment was based on what I have learned and observed over the course of my lifetime. Think about it like this. You learn a technique from your instructor, it's a good one, but for your body type, size weight, and attributes, it doesn't work the way you've been taught. So it get's changed just ever so slightly. Now your ninjutsu technique is different technically making it no longer ninjutsu. It's more your way of doing that particular ninjutsu technique. Now when you teach it, you aren't going to teach the way that doesn't work for you, you will teach the way you have practiced it, and learned it. You'll teach it your way. Now imagine that same thing happening over thousands of years, through various students and instructors. You think your learning it the way it was taught 5,000 years ago? Look at even just Jeet Kune Do....how many instructors are there out there that are teaching it the way Bruce Lee taught it. My money would bet on not one. Because the arts change. Every generation has to make adaptations to it. It's that simple. I guarantee there are techniques that you do, that are not the same as your instructors. Because your body is different, than his, what works for him, may not always work for you. Are you starting to see the point I was trying to make. No one teaches exactly, verbatim what they have been taught. It's not human. Humans are adaptive and ever changing and so are the things that we learn and teach, no matter what it is.

And to haul off and tell every new student that comes on this website that they are learning crap, is wrong, because until you have studied it, or observed enough you don't know that to be sure. THe same with me. I have seen videos of Hatsumi, and he is very skilled. The bujinka has some very skilled practioners to be sure. But in my experience as I have stated earlier the one school that I went to, was deeply lacking. To be honest, I have nothing but respect for most of the individuals that are training in any type of ninjutsu. Especially for the guys in the Bujinkan, but, what I saw and for the amount of money to what you get, in the area that I live, I prefer Toshindo. I have said nothing on this post that is not the truth. It has been readily apparent that you are more into bashing than understanding. I have answered some of your questions please do me the honor of reading my posts more thoroughly and answer some of mine. I would deeply appreciate that.

 

[Kreth]

I have answered some of your questions please do me the honor of reading my posts more thoroughly and answer some of mine. I would deeply appreciate that.

Here, let me paraphrase your very first post on this forum, and let's see if maybe that's why you're not getting answers:

The Bujinkan instructor in my area sucks, his students suck, and he charges too much money. You guys are a bunch of meanie-heads. Toshindo is cheap, video training rocks, and ukemi doesn't work. Toshindo kids are better than most adults, and you guys are still a bunch of meanie-heads.
I'm sorry if you get offended, but I'm right.

:idunno:
Oh, and no one is teaching things as they were 5,000 years ago, simply because no system in Japan dates back that far...

 

[Cryozombie]

Ha, I missed the Ukemi doesn't work thing. I must be dead, since it doesn't work... it clearly didn't save my life when I was thrown headfirst from my motorcycle into oncoming traffic last summer...

 

[jks9199]

Now, I didn't take the afternoon to re-read this rather old thread, but I don't recall anyone saying Toshindo sucks. Or that Stephen Hayes sucks. Generally speaking, style bashing like that isn't well accepted herebouts at MT.

Toshindo appears to be a perfectly valid interpretation of the Bujinkan arts that were taught to Hayes. He's chosen to do his own thing with them, which has apparently moved far enough that Hatsumi has decided he's no longer part of the Bujinkan. That's between the two of them, really... Especially since I've never seen anything on his websites or heard of him claiming to teach the same stuff as the Bujinkan.

But, GBlues, you're getting irate and going in weird directions over anyone having the temerity to question your endorsement of Toshindo and Hayes. I don't get that part of this... Are you so concerned that neither will stand scrutiny that you have to challenge and deflect any examination of them?

 

[theletch1]

Ha, I missed the Ukemi doesn't work thing. I must be dead, since it doesn't work... it clearly didn't save my life when I was thrown headfirst from my motorcycle into oncoming traffic last summer...

I remember seeing photos of your face shield. Gnarly crash, man. Ukemi has saved my butt and that of my kids on several ocassions just from trips and slips and falls. It works if you give it the attention that it deserves... and that is enough attention to make it second nature.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Falling skills are essential skills not just in the martial sciences but for improving your chances when you are simply out and about.

 

[Cryozombie]

I remember seeing photos of your face shield. Gnarly crash, man. Ukemi has saved my butt and that of my kids on several ocassions just from trips and slips and falls. It works if you give it the attention that it deserves... and that is enough attention to make it second nature.

No that wasnt me... that was another member. I didnt have ANY protective gear on, just long pants and a Tshirt, and I hit the pavement rolling.

 

[SKB]

Man now I remember why I stopped comimng on here for awhile........... must not be very fun to go through life being so negative on other people all the time. Note I did not say any names would not want people to pull out the rule book!!!!!!!

Dude if you are finding what you in To-Shin Do then good for you! Why the rest of you come on here I have no idea......STILL!!!!!!!!

 

[Cryozombie]

Dude if you are finding what you in To-Shin Do then good for you! Why the rest of you come on here I have no idea......STILL!!!!!!!!

It's for your smiling face, SKB!