Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

[Deaf]

I agree that the way An Shu Hayes teaches may not be for everyone, and neither is Genbukan, Bujinkan or any other organisation. We are all different and that what makes us interesting, but it seems to me that many of these post are put up here with the people making those posts having never trained with Stephen K Hayes, In TO-SHIN DO or seen the DVDs. Most of what seems to be on this site is rumour.

Check it out yourselves, you may be surprised.

Well Gary, You are correct that what Hayes teaches may not be for everyone and that we are all different. However I do speak from experience. I trained with Hayes for close to 2 years and have many other friends who have trained with Hayes longer than I.

I don't dispute that Hayes is an excellent business man and knows how to run a dojo and bring in the $$. Neither do I dispute that his ToShinDo cirriculum is decent. What I do disagree with is people getting confused and claiming that because they are ToShinDo then they are Bujinkan as well. This is false and it really ticks me off because Hayes makes NO attempt to clear this up but lets it continue because at the end of the day...it all means that there is more $$ going into his pocket.

So all in all. I give Hayes points for being a successful business man but I wouldn't recommend anyone learning from him today because I truly believe he has lost the "magic"! He had it in the past but somewhere down the line...it slowly faded away.

~Deaf~

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I don't know but it seems to me at times that Hayes emphasizes all the esoteric stuff that isn't a core part of the Bujinkan simply because that is what sells, similar to the reason many Bujinkan dojos in for example Australia have incorporated MMA training into their curriculum - not necessarily because they find the Bujinkan lacking, but simply because you just can't be sure to attract as many students by offering nothing but traditional budo.

As we all know, during the early 80's there was a severe shortage on information about ninjutsu as well as budo taijutsu, and as I understand it, this is the reason Hayes mixed up the training with a lot of stuff gathered elsewhere, and what he wrote about Mikkyo and Shugendo isn't really compatible with the training in budo taijutsu (for starters, in esoteric buddhism meditation is the key to understanding kuji, and in budo it's the training in itself; also, if Hatsumi sensei has taken so long to initiate any of his students in kuji, it's probably reasonable to assume he has a reason for doing so, no?).

Even if there are similarities, the applications of mandala, mudra and mantra are totally separate - at least if you want to believe Hatsumi sensei - which means that you cannot simply pick something from buddhism and apply it on budo. Overly focusing on esoteric, energy-channeling parts and so on is dangerous according to Hatsumi sensei since it may lead you to neglect your training in taijutsu.

 

[Gary Arthur]

In response to Ninravus it seems that today there is less of the esoteric side of Ninjutsu talked about than in the past. I remember in the 1990s Bujinkan instructors here in the UK offering classes in Kuji Kiri at an extra cost on a seminar when they knew little or nothing about the process. I also remember articles by people like Bo Munthe and others writing articles about kuji.

Stephen Hayes is really the only person that has gotten involved at any real level, in the esoteric buddhist philosophies that are part of Ninpo. Doesn't Hatsumi and Tanemura do Kuji, and isn't there a photo of Takamatsu doing Kuji.

OK the Kuji process may not be a core part of the Bujinkan today but Hatsumi Sensei could start teaching it tomorrow. I have certainly been on courses with hatsumi where he has shown Kuji. I remember back in 1995 in England when he showed a Mudra that allows one to stop it raining. he then walked around showing everyone this Kuji. I think it was called Kumo Giri (Cloud cutting)

Stephen Hayes uses the esoteric buddhist approach to teaching Ninjutsu, that I have no doubt. He has always taught from the concept of the Go Dai (earth, water, fire etc) but who doesnt. I've even seen copies of the Ten Chi Jin Manual that contain these elements. Is'nt the Godai Esoteric and related to Mikkyo?
Then what about the Gogyo, Ten Chi Jin, arn't these esoteric yet part of the Bujinkan. Hatsumi sensei has spoken about these concepts in Sanmyaku.

We should also consider that schools such as Shinden Fudo Ryu and Gyokko Ryu have strong ties with esoteric buddhism as do ninja like Momochi Sandayu and Takamatsu was a Tendai Priest.

So I do'nt really understand where your coming from.

I feel that Stephen Hayes has taken the concepts from the mandala's and uniquely applies them to todays world where they make sense to the general public today. One does not have to become a buddhist monk or learn the Kuji process, to learn the Stephen K Hayes martial arts.

We all have ways of teaching martial arts dependent on our background. I have seen websites in Bujinkan where people are claiming to teach NLP along side Ninjutsu. Others teach Amatsu Tatara Medicine, which I would suggest are not strictly part of the Bujinkan either.

You make the statement that in the early 80s there was a severe shortage of information about ninjutsu and therefore Stepehn Hayes mixed other things in his books. Are you implying here that Stephen Hayes knew so Little abou Ninjutsu that he had to look around for other stuff to fill his books out.
Well I trained with David Koss (Shadows of Iga) in 1995 and with An Shu Hayes in 1996 and I can tell you neither of them were short on information when it came to Ninjutsu. In 1996 Hayes taught a four day courses showing technique after technique and I filled up nearly two note books.
Stephen Hayes short on information to write his books?
I Don't think so.

You make the statement that one cannot attract as many students by offering just traditional Budo, and you may have a point there. Most people it seems do not wish to study medieval ways of combat, but are interested in how they can protect themselves and use the Ninja arts in the world today.

The TO-SHIN DO approach, from my limited experience seems to be a unique way of teaching people how they can defend themselves using the philosophies, concepts and techniques of Ninjutsu, in todays western world, whilst being able to relate some of the esoteric concepts related to ninjutsu in their life. I certainly have found over the last 19 years that some of these concepts have been invaluable in my life.

 

[Gary Arthur]

In reference to te above post. I trained with David Koss in 1985 and Stephen Hayes in 1986, not 1995 and 1996.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Stephen Hayes is really the only person that has gotten involved at any real level, in the esoteric buddhist philosophies that are part of Ninpo.

As pertaining to Mikkyo and Shugendo, that may be true. Not in regards to what Hatsumi sensei has taught about the subject, AFAIK.

OK the Kuji process may not be a core part of the Bujinkan today but Hatsumi Sensei could start teaching it tomorrow.

I have heard that he actually already has, although only to people with 13th dan and above.

He has always taught from the concept of the Go Dai (earth, water, fire etc) but who doesnt.

If I'd have a nickle for every time I've heard that being referred to in training, I'd have a nickle.

Then what about the Gogyo, Ten Chi Jin, arn't these esoteric yet part of the Bujinkan.

If you're referring to the Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki, I'm not so sure about the esoteric aspects of it (though anyone knowledgeable about the subject would be welcome to enlighten me).
As for godai/gogyo, I believe most of what Hayes wrote about these concepts in for example "Legacy of the Night Warrior" was taken from other sources that had nothing to do with the Bujinkan.

We should also consider that schools such as Shinden Fudo Ryu and Gyokko Ryu have strong ties with esoteric buddhism as do ninja like Momochi Sandayu and Takamatsu was a Tendai Priest./

True, but then again, the latter seems to have admitten at several times that he was not a very religious person.

I feel that Stephen Hayes has taken the concepts from the mandala's and uniquely applies them to todays world where they make sense to the general public today.

Even if that is the case, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what he was taught by Hatsumi sensei. Like I said, most of what he wrote about esoteric buddhism had apparently nothing with the Bujinkan to do.

Others teach Amatsu Tatara Medicine, which I would suggest are not strictly part of the Bujinkan either.

It's part of the Kukishin ryu....?

Are you implying here that Stephen Hayes knew so Little abou Ninjutsu that he had to look around for other stuff to fill his books out.

That seems to me to have been the case, yes. For instance, one could ponder where he laid his hands on the straight and apparently non-Japanese made swords that are put on display in for example "The Ninja and their Secret Fighting Art"...

Well I trained with David Koss (Shadows of Iga) in 1995 and with An Shu Hayes in 1996 and I can tell you neither of them were short on information when it came to Ninjutsu.
In 1996 Hayes taught a four day courses showing technique after technique and I filled up nearly two note books.
Stephen Hayes short on information to write his books?
I Don't think so.

The fact that he was able to produce numerous techniques, waza and henka is irrelevant here. There are many people within the Bujinkan who could go on like that for days but have next to no knowledge whatsoever about the historical aspects of the art.

You make the statement that one cannot attract as many students by offering just traditional Budo, and you may have a point there. Most people it seems do not wish to study medieval ways of combat, but are interested in how they can protect themselves and use the Ninja arts in the world today.

Methods of combat and warfare which may have been developed in the feudal age of Japan, but which at the same time utilize universal principles that are just as useful nowadays...

The TO-SHIN DO approach, from my limited experience seems to be a unique way of teaching people how they can defend themselves using the philosophies, concepts and techniques of Ninjutsu, in todays western world, whilst being able to relate some of the esoteric concepts related to ninjutsu in their life. I certainly have found over the last 19 years that some of these concepts have been invaluable in my life.

For starters, ninjutsu doesn't contain much in the way of physical techniques AFAIK, but what interests me is that this whole concept of To Shin Do being an updated version of "ninjutsu" seems to be based upon the assumption that the methods of the Bujinkan are outdated. And if so, does that assumption have a basis in fact, or is it just another case of not having studied what's available enough, or correctly?


The text above is NOT intended to bash the technical expertise of Stephen Hayes or the exponents of To Shin Do nowadays, if anyone thought this was what I was implying I apologize.

 

[Gary Arthur]

Nimravus

Do you realise that your posts are full of such comments such as "I have heard" "As far as I know" and "I think". Yet you never actually state any facts like "I have actually trained with that person and I have seen or experienced"

You mention that Amatsu is part of Kukishin, and so is the Kuji Process. The Kuji Fudo Kanishibari no In comes from this school, whilst Futen Goshin comes from Gyokko Ryu.

And if you talk about the Kuji process, then the finger positions or mudra realate to the mandala as doi the five elements.

Ten Chi Jin relates to various scrolls found in Ninjutsu and to the 30 ways of disapearing called Goton Santon No Ho. Gogyo is a part of this process.

I also quote from Tanemuras Ninpo Secrets "Ninpo is a true martial art based on martial strategy, techniques and practices that can be traced through Shugendo and Mikkyo.

Hatsumi Sensei talks at length about the Godai in Sanmyaku Volume 1, number 3.

You seem to have been caught up in the word "Esoteric" or hidden as opossed to the word Exoteric, like a lot of these things are hidden, yet they are a fundamental part of training.Ninjutsu is a Holistic martial art. We seem to catorgorise everything and say 'This is Taijutsu, This is Kenjutsu, This is Kuji etc. Yet in reality Ninjutsu is not really learnt that way. I was once told on a seminar that you start learning the Kuji process through Taijutsu.

In fact it was Bud Malmstrom in an article in Ninja magazine suggested that when one practices say yari, one is also practicing sword etc.

As for Hayes Knowledge of Ninjutsu back in the early 80s, well were you actually training with Hayes at that time to make that observation, or is this something you have heard from someone else.

I appreciate that maybe you just wanted the Hayes books such as Warrior ways of enlightenment to just contain Taijutsu Techniques, but these books are some of the biggest selling books in martial arts circles, and they have done exactly what they have set out to do, introduce ninjutsu to the western world and made ninjutsu a popular martial art.

By putting in the books aspects of what you term religious side, I think shows the buyer that there is more to ninjutsu than just killing and maiming someone. And shows that Ninjutsu is a comprehensive martial art based on a philosophy of dealing with the protection of the body, mind and spirit, which of course what Ninjutsu is.

As for your quote about the techniques of Ninjutsu being outdated, well that has not been said. Japan is a different culture to America and if we were living in Japan there may be no reason to change it. But America is a very different culture to Japan. Look at the different murder rates for one thing, and ask yourself how many people in Japan carry a gun.
In the States, with its gun culture, training has to be different. But is'nt this what Hatsumi Sensei has said people should do, make the art their own.

 

[Enson]

Nimravus

Do you realise that your posts are full of such comments such as "I have heard" "As far as I know" and "I think". Yet you never actually state any facts like "I have actually trained with that person and I have seen or experienced"
.

sounds like nimravus also practices drn... will we see sources to your claims? :idunno:

peace

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Yes, I do know that I do relay a lot of hearsay. It would therefore be appreciated if you would be so kind as to point out any eventual unaccuracies. That there are people that have been initiated in kuji besides Hayes, however, is a fact, plain and simple.

I know that there is kuji to be found in the Kukishin ryu as well - but that is not the same application of it as in Mikkyo and Shugendo.

For the sake of clarification - when you speak of Ten Chi Jin, are you talking about Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki?

That there are similarities in thought and philosophy to be found in Mikkyo and Shugendo as well as taoism, does not mean that you can take something from outside the Bujinkan and use it as proof of your understanding of kuji as related to martial arts.

And no, ninjutsu is not a holistic martial art. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is. While there may be kuji to be found in various kamae, in bojutsu, kenjutsu, juttejutsu etc., most of us (myself included no doubt) have still such a long way to go that delving deeper into the concepts and applications of kuji without first perfecting our taijutsu is futile.

You are however correct in your statement that attributes that are developed in yari practice carry over to other weapons, as is true with other weapons as well.

No, I did not train with Hayes in the 80's. I'll freely admit that as well. I can only relay what people I know who have trained with him tell me, as well as refer to his books (which are full of incorrect assumptions and flaws in their descriptions of taijutsu and ninjutsu; one does not have to had trained with Hayes to discover that). As far as I know, Hayes was a great teacher and fighter for what it was worth back then, but they all say that that type of training was nowhere near as advanced as today.
I agree that his books did what they were supposed to (with a vengeance). In fact, I wonder if one couldn't say that they worked a little bit too well?

I won't go further into "which is best" out of To Shin Do and Bujinkan out of respect for other forumites's apparent wishes.
As for Enson - be so kind as to read my profile, won't you?

 

[Gary Arthur]

Nimravus
in response to you reply I quote

Yes, I do know that I do relay a lot of hearsay. It would therefore be appreciated if you would be so kind as to point out any eventual unaccuracies. That there are people that have been initiated in kuji besides Hayes, however, is a fact, plain and simple.

I appreciate the fact that you realise that you do rely on Hearsay and as such I do not feel that it is my place to point out all inaccuracies that you may have. If you do not know for sure in the first place, do not comment. You say that there are people that have be initiated into Kuji. Well first what do we mean by initiated. Do we mean shown or actually had to spend some time studying. or maybe had to go through a trial or ceremony?

I know that there is kuji to be found in the Kukishin ryu as well - but that is not the same application of it as in Mikkyo and Shugendo.

You maybe correct in stating that the Kuji of Mikkyo is different from that of the various Ryu Ha, But then the various Ryu Ha have different Kuji from each other. I think what An Shu Hayes was probably trying to do was to give readers of his books a basic idea of Kuji from the source i.e. Mikkyo. Then as an advanced student, once one understands the process one can delve into the different types of Kuji that relate to the different warrior traditions.

For the sake of clarification - when you speak of Ten Chi Jin, are you talking about Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki?

Ten Chi Jin Ryaku No Maki to me simply means 'Scroll of Heaven, Earth and Man' This can in itself relate to many different things. Shinden Fudo ryu is split up into the scrolls of Ten, Chi and Jin. Takamatsu split up the Amatsu Tatara scroll into Ten, Chi and Jin, Gyokko Ryu has Ten, Chi and Jin strategies.

That there are similarities in thought and philosophy to be found in Mikkyo and Shugendo as well as taoism, does not mean that you can take something from outside the Bujinkan and use it as proof of your understanding of kuji as related to martial arts.

Just because you have not seen it in the Bujinkan does not mean it is not there, (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), Stephen Hayes spent many years in Japan training and conversing with the grandmaster in the Japanese language. As neither of us were there in the early days when the Bujinkan first came into being, or are experts in either Taoism, Mikkyo, or in fact as knowledgable as Stephen Hayes about Bujinkan ninjutsu then we can comment no further. It is highly likely that the Bujinkan has changed in the last 30 years and what was once taught is not taught much anymore.

And no, ninjutsu is not a holistic martial art. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is. While there may be kuji to be found in various kamae, in bojutsu, kenjutsu, juttejutsu etc., most of us (myself included no doubt) have still such a long way to go that delving deeper into the concepts and applications of kuji without first perfecting our taijutsu is futile.

Well what do we mean by Ninjutsu. Are we talking about one school i.e. Togakure Ryu. Surely that in itself is Holistic. Togakure Ryu includes sword, Shuriken, Metsubushi, Taijutsu, Muto Dori, Kuji etc, and moreover when practicing one art one is also practicing another. This is difficult to describe on paper but in the dojo can be demonstrated quite easily. And whilst I appreciate that you are not in a position to delve deeper into Kuji, the Hayes books as already stated contained Kuji possibly as a historical note and as a taster to future training. And if you are not at the stage yet for Kuji, why oh why are you talking about it.

No, I did not train with Hayes in the 80's. I'll freely admit that as well. I can only relay what people I know who have trained with him tell me, as well as refer to his books (which are full of incorrect assumptions and flaws in their descriptions of taijutsu and ninjutsu; one does not have to had trained with Hayes to discover that).

You mention inaccurate assumptions and flaws in descriptions of taijutsu and ninjutsu. Ok can you quote a few?

As far as I know, Hayes was a great teacher and fighter for what it was worth back then, but they all say that that type of training was nowhere near as advanced as today.
I agree that his books did what they were supposed to (with a vengeance). In fact, I wonder if one couldn't say that they worked a little bit too well?

Hayes was a great teacher and fighter back then, and still is today. Unfortunately you have neither trained with him in the past or in the present.

I won't go further into "which is best" out of To Shin Do and Bujinkan out of respect for other forumites's apparent wishes.

And how would you prove that anyway. Oh I know maybe you'll listen to a few more peoples opinions instead of checking it out yourself and visiting a Quest centre and putting your questions to An Shu Hayes himself.

 

[heretic888]

I appreciate the fact that you realise that you do rely on Hearsay and as such I do not feel that it is my place to point out all inaccuracies that you may have. If you do not know for sure in the first place, do not comment.

No offense, Gary, but do you "know for sure" any of the things that you have claimed?? You basically seem to be relying on Hayes' books (which there is no secret that they have inaccuracies), and/or hearsy yourself.

You maybe correct in stating that the Kuji of Mikkyo is different from that of the various Ryu Ha, But then the various Ryu Ha have different Kuji from each other. I think what An Shu Hayes was probably trying to do was to give readers of his books a basic idea of Kuji from the source i.e. Mikkyo.

Nimravus wasn't saying that there weren't different mudra in different traditions. He was saying that the application of mudra in Budo Taijutsu is different than the application in Mikkyo. I have been told this, as well.

Just because you have not seen it in the Bujinkan does not mean it is not there, (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), Stephen Hayes spent many years in Japan training and conversing with the grandmaster in the Japanese language. As neither of us were there in the early days when the Bujinkan first came into being, or are experts in either Taoism, Mikkyo, or in fact as knowledgable as Stephen Hayes about Bujinkan ninjutsu then we can comment no further. It is highly likely that the Bujinkan has changed in the last 30 years and what was once taught is not taught much anymore.

Ummm.... more hearsay?? :idunno:

Well what do we mean by Ninjutsu. Are we talking about one school i.e. Togakure Ryu. Surely that in itself is Holistic. Togakure Ryu includes sword, Shuriken, Metsubushi, Taijutsu, Muto Dori, Kuji etc, and moreover when practicing one art one is also practicing another.

It is very rare that any koryu would actually teach only "one thing". There are many ryuha that are hailed as "kenjutsu schools", but they teach much more than swords. That doesn't mean that when you are learning grappling in that school, that you are actually doing "kenjutsu".

Same with Togakure ryu and "ninjutsu".

You mention inaccurate assumptions and flaws in descriptions of taijutsu and ninjutsu. Ok can you quote a few?

I think his use of the Godai in associations with certain kamae are the one of the major ones (i.e. jumonji no kamae = "fire element", without exception). There was also the blanketing of everything taught in the Bujinkan as "ninjutsu" during the 1980's.

Well, those are my opinions anyway. Laterz. :asian:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If you do not know for sure in the first place, do not comment.

Indeed, no comment on that. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" someone just said...?

You say that there are people that have be initiated into Kuji. Well first what do we mean by initiated. Do we mean shown or actually had to spend some time studying. or maybe had to go through a trial or ceremony?

I mean people who have been shown and allowed to practice it as an extension of their existing knowledge of taijutsu. Then there is the supposed "blood oath" that was taken by several of the Japanese shihan back in the 70's or something, but that's another matter altogether.

I think what An Shu Hayes was probably trying to do was to give readers of his books a basic idea of Kuji from the source i.e. Mikkyo.

Exactly, he went to Mikkyo because his kuji knowledge gathered from Hatsumi sensei was not very extensive.

Ten Chi Jin Ryaku No Maki to me simply means 'Scroll of Heaven, Earth and Man' This can in itself relate to many different things. Shinden Fudo ryu is split up into the scrolls of Ten, Chi and Jin. Takamatsu split up the Amatsu Tatara scroll into Ten, Chi and Jin, Gyokko Ryu has Ten, Chi and Jin strategies.

Oookay, so does that answer my original question?

Just because you have not seen it in the Bujinkan does not mean it is not there, (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence),

Did I say it wasn't there at all?

It is highly likely that the Bujinkan has changed in the last 30 years and what was once taught is not taught much anymore.

Agreed.

Well what do we mean by Ninjutsu. Are we talking about one school i.e. Togakure Ryu. Surely that in itself is Holistic. Togakure Ryu includes sword, Shuriken, Metsubushi, Taijutsu, Muto Dori, Kuji etc, and moreover when practicing one art one is also practicing another.

Ninjutsu in itself has nothing with physical techniques of taijutsu/kenjutsu etc. do to, it is mainly concerned with things like geology, information gathering, infiltration, and so forth.

And if you are not at the stage yet for Kuji, why oh why are you talking about it.

Since when did I say that I have been exposed to kuji in training, or say that I could explain "what it's like"?

You mention inaccurate assumptions and flaws in descriptions of taijutsu and ninjutsu. Ok can you quote a few?

Well, for one thing, it's the assumption that ninjutsu has anything to do with physical techniques...then there's the straight swords and the black suits... then there's the edge-on-edge sword block on page 86 in "The Ninja and their Secret Fighting Art"...he's bending his knee over his foot at several times, he's flailing his arms needlessly around when performing jumping kicks, the list could go in. Technique-wise, it's mostly errors that are common even to this day. But the main flaw is his description of ninja as an ethnic group of honorable, hardworking peasants who struggled against the samurai oppression, and who were persecuted because of their alternative religion and lifestyle. Karl Friday and Steven Turnbull have both pretty much discarded the vision of ninja as low-ranking commoner who rebelled against their attackers in a way similar to that of the Okinawan revolts against the Japanese invasion.

Hayes was a great teacher and fighter back then, and still is today. Unfortunately you have neither trained with him in the past or in the present.

Which is why I wrote nothing that commented on his technical expertise nowadays.

Oh I know maybe you'll listen to a few more peoples opinions instead of checking it out yourself and visiting a Quest centre and putting your questions to An Shu Hayes himself.

Would love to do that, although I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask Hatsumi sensei about that when I get to Japan at the end of this month...



...and please everybody, don't tell Nagato sensei about it if I would?:anic:

 

[Enson]

Ummm.... more hearsay?? :idunno: :asian:

are you trying to imply that hayes never trained with your grandmaster? i knew those videos were fake. hayes never had ninjutsu training...

 

[tshadowchaser]

Gentelmen you are putting forth some good information
Lets not spoil this thread with little wars

 

[heretic888]

are you trying to imply that hayes never trained with your grandmaster? i knew those videos were fake. hayes never had ninjutsu training...

Nope. Taken out of context, I'm afraid.

 

[Gary Arthur]

In response to Heretic and Ninravus, a few points.

I agree that in the early days the Nine schools of the Bujinkan were called Ninjutsu by Hayes, as they were by Hatsumi. The nine schools came under the umbrella of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. This may have been to promote the art.

Even to day when someone is genuine and asks me what martial art I study I say "Ninjutsu". (although now I am proud to say TO-SHIN DO) I could go into a more lengthy explaination and go into all the schools but I find that they loose interest or get confused. The name Ninjutsu I feel has been used in the past as a marketing tool. Its like going into Burger King and finding that they also sell chicken sandwiches and a lot more beside.
In short "Its only a name" which has served a purpose. Now of course we use names like Budo Taijutsu, Ninpo or TO-SHIN DO.

Now what has been mentioned is that Ninjutsu does not contain physical techniques. Really, I thought Togakure Ryu contained the techniques of the Santo/Soto Tonko No Kata, Mokuton Kata, and Kenjutsu.

In reference to the Hayes books showing the Kuji, I think you'll find that the nine finger positions are related to Ninjutsu. In fact in Tanemuras Ninpo Secrets he shows a grid slash using Rin, Pyo, Toh etc. I have personally seen, as has many members of the Genbukan, Tanemura Sensei performing these Mudra prior to a seminar. But maybe Tanemura Sensei is borrowing from Mikkyo because he lacks knowledge too. And if we are going to talk about the Mandala, well as I have stated, to understand the Nine Sylables in their eastern philosophy, one has to study the Mandala, as each finger represents a buddha which is related on the mandala.

Supposed Blood Oath (Really, sounds like something we might hear Ashida Kim doing) are you sure about this. Who took it, or is it hearsay?

And finally, I'm impressed by your arm chair criticism of the Stephen Hayes techniques from the books. OK so maybe the knee went over the front foot, or the sword was edge on to another sword. What we must remember is that these photographs are snap shots of an action, which can be easily misinterpreted. Its a little like the techniques Kage Nitto which Hatsumi Sensei performed when pulling a sword across his back. The photographer took the picture just as the tsuba was near his shoulder. This led many people into believing that the Ninja drew their swords off their back. Now if we were'nt so informed it would be so easy to say "Dr Hatsumi does'nt know Ninjutsu, anybody knows the ninja dont draw swords off their back.

So in relation to the edge on edge sword stop, is it not possible that its a deflection. How many times has Hatsumi Sensei stated that you cannot really capture the movement of Ninjutsu on a video camera, let alone a book.

Oh and one final point. When I quote something on the web, its either by direct experience, through that persons words (ie direct communication, and I have had a few regular conversations with An Shu Hayes over the last few months. and E mails) or through printed primary evidence material.

 

[heretic888]

You maybe correct in stating that the Kuji of Mikkyo is different from that of the various Ryu Ha, But then the various Ryu Ha have different Kuji from each other. I think what An Shu Hayes was probably trying to do was to give readers of his books a basic idea of Kuji from the source i.e. Mikkyo. Then as an advanced student, once one understands the process one can delve into the different types of Kuji that relate to the different warrior traditions.

"[...]it would be a serious mistake to regard the essential natures of Mikkyo Kuji and Ninja Kuji as one and the same simply because Mikkyo contains a Kuji Goshin Ho.

[...]

However, the religious forms and the martial forms were quite different in character and nature."

(Masaaki Hatsumi, Sanmyaku, Volume 2, Number 1)

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Now what has been mentioned is that Ninjutsu does not contain physical techniques. Really, I thought Togakure Ryu contained the techniques of the Santo/Soto Tonko No Kata, Mokuton Kata, and Kenjutsu.

Precisely, Togakure ryu contains these things among others. Togakure ryu per se is not ninjutsu, it is a school of classical Japanese martial arts.

In fact in Tanemuras Ninpo Secrets he shows a grid slash using Rin, Pyo, Toh etc. I have personally seen, as has many members of the Genbukan, Tanemura Sensei performing these Mudra prior to a seminar. But maybe Tanemura Sensei is borrowing from Mikkyo because he lacks knowledge too.

What makes you think the experience of Hayes can be compared with that of Tanemura, especially since Hayes describes in "The Ninja and the Secret Fighting Art" how he got his a$$ handed to him by said gentleman, whom at the time had already been training with Hatsumi sensei for years?

And if we are going to talk about the Mandala, well as I have stated, to understand the Nine Sylables in their eastern philosophy, one has to study the Mandala, as each finger represents a buddha which is related on the mandala.

The application of which is not the same in budo and Mikkyo regardless.

Supposed Blood Oath (Really, sounds like something we might hear Ashida Kim doing) are you sure about this. Who took it, or is it hearsay?

Supposedly, a very inebriated Tetsuji Ishizuka told someone years ago that there were things the Japanese shihans had sworn an oath to Hatsumi sensei to never reveal without his permission. Most likely this simply referred to them not being allowed (at the time) to teach specific ryuha kata.

Its a little like the techniques Kage Nitto which Hatsumi Sensei performed when pulling a sword across his back.

You mean kage no itto?

So in relation to the edge on edge sword stop, is it not possible that its a deflection. How many times has Hatsumi Sensei stated that you cannot really capture the movement of Ninjutsu on a video camera, let alone a book.

Well, that should solve the issue of distance courses at least.

 

[GBlues]

Couple of issues that I have is this. People talking about the price of training being in the hundreds for Toshindo. Uhmmm.....ok so it is the same with Bujinkan. Ninjutsu training isn't cheap guys. You ain't going to pay 65 dollars a month for it unless you have special circumstances. I know cause where I live, they are all charging at least 120 dollars a month. I went to one Bujinkan instructor who only teaches twice a week, and he's charging 75 bucks a month at a ymca??????? And let me tell you mister his guys are not very impressive. I don't think that even one of them could hold there own in a self-defense situation. He had a couple of women in there that were, but mostly because of how flexible they were....ahem. From my understanding traditional ninjutsu is kind of taught laxidasically at best. If you learn a technique or something of the art that night it's kind of secondary to the instructor and students walking around playing patty cake all night. Now while I am sure that there are schools in my area that do not teach in this fashion, I am only speaking on one school that I personally observed.
I am a current student at a toshindo school, and I don't pay that much, as I'm lucky if I can attend 3 to 4 times a month. I have never been told that I am part of the Bujinkan, and judging from what I have seen at the ymca, and from some individuals on here, I may quit if that is the case! I would not be proud to say that I was a member of the bujinkan at the this time, reading your posts.
The Videos????? You guys are griping because he sells a home study course? He tells you that it is not recommended that you use it as your only source. My instructor and I talked about it and he recommended two videos for me to take with me when I go out of town, so that I have something to work with after work. Sort of a supplement to my training, and even at that, he told me to understand that they do do some things differently at the school that I train at. As it is with any martial art. No one teaches a technique or skill exactly the way it was taught to them. As far as ukemi goes, no it's not the first skill that you learn, but it is given probably more time than some of the other things on the videos. It is still very much alive in toshindo, it's just that Anshu-Hayes, feels that you should be able to protect yourself and so should learn something useful to you outside of the school first.
Yeah, I'm walking down the road and a guy punches me in the face, I can roll, but on the way up what do I do now? Get kicked in the mouth, that's what. All of my research has lead me to believe that every practioner in ninjutsu is encouraged to make it there own, and if you decide to teach it, you will teach it that way. What is the problem if you call it toshindo or bujinkan, or genbukan. When I become a teacher maybe I'll call it something else, that fits with the way I see the art, and my students will do the same.
You guys are stuck on I study this it's the best, well that's a load of horse crap! Shouldn't you just be happy that someone who has actually trained in ninjutsu is teaching it, and promoting the art as opposed to someone who learned karate and is teaching it as ninjutsu?
As far as it being about money, I don't see that my instructor was more than happy to have me in his classroom, and more than willing to work out an acceptable payment plan to both of us. However, I would be willing to pay his full price if I could attend more often.
The meditations and self-improvement aspects have even come under attack in this thread. I can't see a problem with trying to make yourself a better person. That is one of the things that always attracted me to ninjutsu in the movies. It wasn't just the martial aspects, but the spiritual aspects as well. Which by the way, the mental and spiritual aspects are more important than the martial. I will tell you this the majority of the students that I have trained with, even the kids at the toshindo school, are far better than most adults I've seen in other systems, and even at the ymca guys mcdojo bujinkan.
What Anshu-Hayes has done is create a way to learn in a systematic, well structured environment, so that every night you go to class, you are not going to be walking around playing patty cake. You are going to learn something. And he most certainly makes authentic ninjutsu training available to his students. So you guys out there need to stop shooting your mouth off, and worry about your bujinkan buddies as you seem to be more worried about the name than the art. Sorry I'm angry but you guys are bad for this stuff, and I most certainly don't mean to offend, but that's how I see it.

 

[Cryozombie]

Couple of issues that I have is this. People talking about the price of training being in the hundreds for Toshindo. Uhmmm.....ok so it is the same with Bujinkan. Ninjutsu training isn't cheap guys. You ain't going to pay 65 dollars a month for it unless you have special circumstances.

I pay 20 dollars a month. It's not "special circumstances" either, thats just what we pay.

But, I also realize thats not typical of most schools.

And I don't think using videos as supplemental instruction is bad... its just guys like Hayes and VonDonk that let you rank by sending in Tape o yourself after you shell out the 100's for thier "home study courses" that get my dander up... Why not just sell me a belt rank, it would be about as effective.

 

[Cryozombie]

and promoting the art as opposed to someone who learned karate and is teaching it as ninjutsu?

Oh god, I caught this after I made the other post, and I know that this is gonna start a war, because NO ONE who studies Toshindo wants to believe it... but I train with Former Shadows of Iga instructors who witnessed this first hand, and several members (or former members) of this board confirmed they saw the same thing which is what prompted them to leave Hayes organization...

When Hayes Created Toshindo he went and gave weekend seminars to TaeKwondo Schools and their like that PAID for the "honor" of being able to teach "Ninjutsu"... TWO DAYS TO A WEEK OF TRAINING and they became "Toshindo Masters" so that comment is BS, thats exactly what you have in some cases... Karate Guys passing off what they have as Ninjutsu after taking a seminar.

Even the Quest center here was put up for sale rank and all, only the guys who bought it were senior students in TSD rather than some Karate guys... but they decided that TSD and the Bujinkan both weren't good enough so they formed their own -kan. *rolls eyes* But if I had the cash, *I* could have been a Toshindo master.