Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

Discussion in 'SKH/Quest/Toshindo/Shadows of Iga' started by Bob Hubbard, Sep 3, 2001.

  1. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Staff Member

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    I was under the impression the he was a ninjitsu instructor. Real dumb question, but as I have read several of his books I have to ask. What happened to change this? Does he still teach ninjitsu?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    He was a teacher in the Bujinkan organization, but I'm not sure what he's doing now. It seems like he's broken off and has started his own thing, which seems pretty common for the Bujinkan org...Bussey broke away, Tanemura (sp? The guy who founded the Genbukan org.), and apparently Hayes. I know Hayes is pretty heavy into Buddhism now (at least I think he is, rather), and he's provided security for the Dalai Lama on a few occasions. Maybe that has something to do with it?

    Cthulhu
     
  3. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Okay, did a little digging.

    Toshindo is a 'modern' approach to teaching what Hayes has learned from Hatsumi. From all appearances, it's a very commercialized way of teaching a watered down Tokagure ryu system in what are called 'Quest Centers'. Apparently, the higher ranked students in the system can eventually be taught the actual Tokagure ryu system with traditional instruction. Apparently there are still links to the Bujinkan organization.

    According to my instructor in California, the Hayes schools are closing down left and right, apparently not doing very well at all.

    Cthulhu
     
  4. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Staff Member

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    I can understand why, if thats true. I seriously considered heading to Dayton to try and learn ninjitsu under him, but I want the "real" thing, not a watered down version. Sadly, budgetary and other restraints kept me from doing that, and now it seems like it wouldn't have given me what I wanted. Kinda like all the systems that have 6yr old blackbelts. You just know that its not the "same" as what the "adult" got.


    sorry, my heads swiming from overload today....can't think too straight. Too much pain and anger in the air. :(
     
  5. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    There's a guy in my city by the name of Dick Severence teaching Bujinkan ninjutsu. A buddy of mine was studying ninjutsu at the Atlanta Bujinkan Dojo under Bud Malmstrom some years back. From what I remember, the dojo changed their fees and access policies for the worst and he ended up leaving the system. Before that, when the fees were lower and the dojo access was greater, he had nothing but praise for the system.

    Cthulhu
     
  6. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Okay, saw an interview on Hayes. He says that To-Shin Do techniques are based off of ninjutsu techniques (most likely ninpo taijutsu), but it is NOT ninjutsu. He states that most people can't or won't undertake something as rigorous as authentic ninjutsu.

    Just a little update.

    Cthulhu
     
  7. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Staff Member

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    Watered down = yuk.

    IMHO.
    :asian:
     
  8. higuma

    higuma Guest

    Kaith and Cthulu,

    Yes, Steve still has "connections" to the Bujinkan. No, his ToShinDo system does not resemble the Budo Taijutsu done in Japan or in most of the rest of the world for that matter.

    As for the migration of instructors being common place in the Bujinkan... I dare say that it happens less in the Bujinkan than in many other arts. Yes there have been high ranking people in the organization leave but, in my opinion, the best stay. I think that, in and of itself, speaks volumes about Hatsumi-sensei.

    Kaith, if you are interested in training with a legitimate Bujinkan group, let me know and I'll try to help you locate one nearer you than Dayton.
     
  9. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    It's 'budo taijutsu' now? Last I heard, it was 'ninpo taijutsu'.

    Cthulhu
     
  10. higuma

    higuma Guest

    Aahhh... the "name" question.

    Let's call it a matter of evolution. Similar to the name progression of Wing Chun to Jun Fan Gung Fu to Jeet Kune Do to Jeet Kune Do Concepts, ad infinitum.

    In a nutshell, in the '60s and '70s the Bujinkan arts were known as Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. Then in the '80s it became Bujinkan Dojo Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu. Then toward the late '80's early '90s it was Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu. Then, circa '94, it transmogrified one more time to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

    The take home lesson here is, all the names are accurate. There are several reasons for the name changes at various times but overall, the point is that while we study the last extant "ninja" arts, we also study other things that are more attributable to the larger heading of "budo". Additionally, ninpo is a form of budo.

    Imo, the "official" name is really of very little importance anyway. At the end of the day, Bujinkan practitioners are studying Hatsumi-ha Taijutsu, aka Hatsumi Ryu. And when the student advances to a certain point the art starts to be his/hers. It is a living, growing, evolving art and as such is in constant flux. Nature is not static and neither is the Bujinkan.
     
  11. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    I was just making an observation of the name change. Thanks for the info, though.

    However, the Wing Chun - JKD analogy is not really appropriate in this case. For the Bujinkan ninjutsu issue, despite all the name changes, the art has essentially remained the same. In Bruce Lee's case, it was not merely a name change, but a change in the system being taught at the time. Basically, JKD is NOT Jun Fan which is NOT Wing Chun.

    Cthulhu
     
  12. GouRonin

    GouRonin Guest

    If the quest centers under hays are not teaching "authentic ninjitsu" what is it exactly they are teaching?
    :confused:
     
  13. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    They teach 'to-shin do', an art created by Hayes loosely based off Bujinkan ninjutsu. At one time, he still offered a course in ninjutsu for advanced students, but I don't know if that is still the case.

    Cthulhu
     
  14. GouRonin

    GouRonin Guest

    Who doesn't want to open his own martial arts school? But after reading half the stuff that goes on out there and PASSES as a martial art I think that I could quite easily get away with opening up a McDojo.
    :soapbox:
     
  15. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Staff Member

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    higuma - I would apreciate the pointers. Thank you. :asian:

    I think the name is less important than the quality of the teaching. If the instructor is capable, and can truely trace their lineage back to Dr. Hatsumi, and is certified to teach by him, then I'm ok with it. :)

    I prefer to learn quality vs watered down, even though I may need the watered down for the first month or 2 to get the brain and body in gear.

    A McDojo? naw. I don't need the fries. ;)

    But, I have thought of opening my own school in maybe 5 years or so, or at least being a part time instructor at one of my instructors schools. I like sword and stick techniques, and like to help others. :)
     
  16. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    The few opportunities I've had to teach have all been fun, even though I'm still an impatient, cranky, S.O.B. :D

    If I were to open up a school, I'd have to have some other source of income so I don't end up having a crappy dojo with crappy equipment. I definitely don't want to fall into the McDojo category. Ideally, I'd want only a handful of students so as to better track their progress. Of course, to even start this, I'd have to be rich already. So much for that idea.

    Cthulhu
     
  17. Chiduce

    Chiduce Guest

    Dr. Hatsumi is a great martial artist of ninjutsu. But what about the Yoshida Clan? The clan in which James Masayoshi Mitose came from and introduced Kosho Ryu Kempo and Koga Ha Ninjutsu into our modern times! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!
     
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  18. KOGA-NINJA

    KOGA-NINJA Guest

    Hi i think HAYES has all the right to do his own thing and WITHOUT HIM THE BUJINKAN WAS NOT EVEN SPREAD AND WE COULDN'T PRACTISE IT!
    HATSUMI SENSEI IS RICH NOW BECAUSE OF HAYES AND WITHOUT HAYES HE HAD NEVER BECOME SO KNOWN

    hAYES IS WHAT YOU CLAIMED AGAIN NOT A NINJUTSU INSTRUCTOR, BUJINKAN AND NINJUTSU IS NOT THE SAME!

    HAYES WAS A TEACHER IN THE ART OF BUJINKAN BUDO TAIJUTSU (NOT NINPO TAIJUTSU) AND WITH THAT KNOWLEDGE HE HAS STARTED HIS OWN THANG!
    to shiN do IS A LITTLE BIT LIKE THE MODERN WAY OF THE OLD APPROACH DO YOU UNDERSTAND>???

    pEACE AND RESPECT koga ninja
     
  19. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Mod Note:

    Use of all capital letters is considered bad etiquette. Please refrain from doing so in the future.

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  20. Deaf

    Deaf Green Belt

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    Stephen K. Hayes is not a ninjutsu instructor. He has basically created a chain of marital art schools called Quest Centers that teach To Shin Do which is translated to The way of sword/heart or something like that.

    What Mr. Hayes basically did was take everything that he learned in the Bujinkan system and broken it down or "watered" it down to simple techniques that anyone can do and charging them a crap load of money for it as well. Whether or not these techniques are beneficial or work in reality, only those who train in the system can say. But from many of the practioners that I have seen from Quest Centers, their taijutsu is extremely poor in all aspects and the ukemi skills are virtually non-existent. I believe ukemi skills have actually been eliminated from the Quest Center's cirriculum due to the fact it was "too hard" for the students to learn. Thus created too much "negative" feelings.

    Up front it looks good and has a lot of positive energy etc...but in the backend, it is lacking some serious basic skills IHMO.

    From my understanding (based on other Bujinkan practioners and from Mr. Hayes' magazine interviews) Mr. Hayes is still affiliated with the Bujinkan and he probably will always be affiliated with the Bujinkan however he DOES NOT teach Bujinkan. Even though he has re-formed his "Shadow Of Iga Society" group and offers training in authentic Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu one day a month or week for 45 minutes for members only (I cringe to think of how much that is costing them). So you draw you own conclusions about that one. I have mine but I my opinion about that is not important.

    HTH with the understanding a bit.

    Deaf
     
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