Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

[Bob Hubbard]

I think part of the problem is, how do you take an art, that requires years of dedication, and market it to a group of people to whom microwaves are too slow making tea?

The amerkican public has had a rapidly dwindling attention span for the last several decades. Quick = good. Time = bad.

For all the respect I've had in the past for Mr. Hayes, I have yet to hear any good things about his Quest system.

Its sad.

 

[Deaf]

Yes I agree. I used to have quite a bit of respect for Mr. Hayes as well. Hell, I started ninjutsu because of him and his wife. he and his wife's taijutsu is phenonemal and he is a great martial artist in that sense.

However one cannot help but get the feeling that Quest Centers are not about teaching martial arts or creating positive environments but really about creating a steady cash flow for Mr. Hayes. I heard (probably a rumor but none the less short of amazing) that Mr. Hayes actually charges over $500 per hour for private lessons! Now that is just ridiculuos.

There is nothing wrong with making a living but the way it seems that Mr. Hayes is going about doing it, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That is my opinion and I am sure there are many who will agree and disagree.

This is all I really will say about this subject since I don't really wish to bash Hayes. Just wanted to voice some of my opinions about the topic and now I have.

Deaf

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Are there even any Toshido studios around?

And does anyone have personal experience with Steve Hayes before and after he started toshindo? I would like to know if he has always taught a watered down version of the Bujinkan, or if that is a recent event.

Considering that many people started out under Hayes and learned their basics from him, or from someone who learned from him, any problems he has may have great impact on the American Bujinkan as a whole.

 

[Cryozombie]

Shadow, take this for what its worth, since it is second hand, but...

My current instructor had been a student of SKH before he broke away and started the quest center thing... Hayes taught the "real" bujinkan teachings for a long time, and my instructor trained with him for several years. And then, as he relates the story, Hayes started courting TKD dojos, telling them he would teach them Ninjustsu they could teach at their schools... he watered the system down to some basic techniques, taught it to the TKD guys in weekend seminars and gouged money from them for allowing them to become "Quest Centers"

My instructor basicaly went "Man this is Bull<stuff>!" and was outed. He trains under a different insructor now, obviously.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Are there even any Toshido studios around?

He still has the main school in Dayton, OH, doesn't he?

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Ok Techno,
Maybe you can address another question of mine. I have heard from numerous sources that what Hayes was teaching even before he founded Toshindo was not up to the standards in Japan. Of course, if you talk to anyone under Hayes they all dispute this and try to pass it off as some sort of conspiracy.

Can you make any statements on this from strong experience?

I know Hayes modified the teachings in his books with his five element theory and talk of things like "fire technique" and things like that. Rumor has it that he was out of the loop for anything of any real importance for most of his career. Of course, he still got high rank. It is hard to tell an instructors real standing and competence in the Bujinkan. Rank means nothing and there are so many accusations and counter accusations on the internet and by word of mouth.

Anyone care to comment with stories of their own?

 

[arnisador]

What is his rank, incidentally?

 

[heretic888]

Last I heard, Hayes is a judan. Of course, he got that rank around 1993 so Buddha only knows what rank he is now.

I think it should be mentioned that there are a lot of rumors going around the internet concerning Hayes, apparently the most popular of which is that he "left" the Bujinkan. Don't beleive everything you hear (although some of the rumors do have weight).

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Ok Techno,
Maybe you can address another question of mine. I have heard from numerous sources that what Hayes was teaching even before he founded Toshindo was not up to the standards in Japan. Of course, if you talk to anyone under Hayes they all dispute this and try to pass it off as some sort of conspiracy.

Can you make any statements on this from strong experience?

I cannot... I went to a Shadows of Iga School that was here prior to it closing down and the formation of the quest centers... all I can say is that after my 2 week "trial" course, I was not impressed, and it was WAY about making the dough... so I did not continue training there.

 

[Bujingodai]

Well I have an opinion. A limited one at that. Other than reading some books, which are a good read but at the same time no gospel. I did enjoy the wau he does a video. You can tell he has the $$$ to do it though.
I knew a student at the Dayton location. He paid a bucket load. Over a hundred a month, there were many stripes to each kyu. After 4 years he was equivelent to not much more than a green belt. Well 4 classes a week would on average get you farther than that.
A month ago I had signed up for the SOI festival. couple hundred bucks cdn, about 300. + hotel. When I called about it to ask what came with the package, there was nil. For that money I want at a token momento. Thats just polite. I asked will there be a video. They stated that parts of it will be in the newsletter which is about $325 a year cdn funds. There was an opportunity to meet him though. All in all, it just seemed to not have the meat I was going to pay that money, and drive 15 hrs to see for 2 days.
Now the same can be said for the Tai Kai really in the Bujinkan. But the same cost got me another day of training, a dinner and a bucket of momentos to take home.

This notwithstanding SKH has made an incredible, if not the most important contribution to Ninjutsu in N America. However he is to me 1st and foremost a businessman.

 

[Richard S.]

there is a "Quest Center" in Chapel Hill, N.C. about 40 miles from my house. i went in once and got the impression that i could have ordered a "rank to go"............

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Technopunk
I cannot... I went to a Shadows of Iga School that was here prior to it closing down and the formation of the quest centers... all I can say is that after my 2 week "trial" course, I was not impressed, and it was WAY about making the dough... so I did not continue training there.

Jeez....

Such honesty. I am continually amazed at the fact that there are so many morons in the Bujinkan, but Bujinkan members are allowed to cut loose with such honest critique of each other.

I have seen some orginizations that resemble the Stepford Wives. Nothing bad is said of anybody, not matter how bad a reputation they may have.

Sometimes the Bujinkan seems to be a bunch of quibbling amatuers. But sometimes the freedom to ***** is rather refreshing.

 

[Deaf]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Jeez....

Such honesty. I am continually amazed at the fact that there are so many morons in the Bujinkan, but Bujinkan members are allowed to cut loose with such honest critique of each other.

I have seen some orginizations that resemble the Stepford Wives. Nothing bad is said of anybody, not matter how bad a reputation they may have.

Sometimes the Bujinkan seems to be a bunch of quibbling amatuers. But sometimes the freedom to ***** is rather refreshing.

I believe what you really meant to say "so many morons in the Martial Arts!" It is not just the Bujinkan dude! You just really LOVE bashing Bujinkan!

Now back to the original thread...

The below statements are my thoughts and my observances from information that I have heard.

Hayes basically taught his interpretation of budo taijutsu. Using the Godai or "elements" which actually are NOT part of the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu cirriculum. And if memory serves me correct, a lot of his early students were quite surprised and disappointed when they went to Japan for the first time and learned that "hey we don't use elements...that is our method of counting etc"

HOWEVER, all that aside, he did teach the techniques as they were just put a different twist to them using the Godai or "elements" theory behind them..such as Jumonji No Kamae being "Fire Posture" feeling as if you are angry all consuming and taking charge etc... I believe he just took what he thought was the best tool to teach what he learned and went with it. Not to say it is right or wrong BUT that is not how the art is being taught in Japan.

Now in present day, SKH is all about the "benjamins"! Plain and simple!

Deaf

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Deaf
Now in present day, SKH is all about the "benjamins"! Plain and simple!

Well, everyone seems to be in agreement that SKH is a money- grubbing whore. But is this really a recent change? It is hard for me to believe that a leopard can change his spots. Isn't it safer to say that he has always made a damn good living off of teaching ninjutsu?

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Jeez....

Such honesty. I am continually amazed at the fact that there are so many morons in the Bujinkan, but Bujinkan members are allowed to cut loose with such honest critique of each other.

Sometimes the Bujinkan seems to be a bunch of quibbling amatuers. But sometimes the freedom to ***** is rather refreshing.

Is it really that different in the Bujinkan than in ay other arts? Does school A not bag on School B in say... Kempo or TKD? I would be really supprised to learn that was the case, and that its a Bujinkan only thing...

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Actually I could tell you about my experiences in kenpo politics. That could get really messy.

But what surprises me is that in kenpo and other arts they have different orginizations taking shots at each other. There is no grand leader calling the shots between the different factions. But the Bujinkan is headed by Masaaki Hatsumi and you guys spend so much time taking shots at each other inside your own orginization!!!

Yes you do sound like a bunch of screaming children. But if I were to ask a question about an instructor like the guy who runs full page ads in Black Belt I know that I will get both sides of the story on him instead of the official line.

 

[Cryozombie]

Shadowhunter, Im curious, and please DON'T take this as an attack, I'm really curious...

You posted in another Ninjutsu thread about the Sulsa:

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter


Their training, from what we know of it, is hell on earth. Only a few survive to become operatives. They take political prisoners, (females mainly- and if they are pregnent even better) tie them to posts and give the recruit a knife to kill them without mercy. Later, they are thrown in rooms with male inmates and forced to fight and kill them.

Is this the same art your profile says you are a senior practitoner of???? I HOPE NOT!

If so How the HECK do you get involved in that??? And whats up with an art that forces you to murder pregnant women? AND WHY would you even TELL people you were involved with that???

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Technopunk,
Why didn't you post that under the thread it was part of instead of here?

And to answer your question, the tradition I study and what North Korean commandos study probably has no connection at all. We really do not know too much about them, only that they do the same type of job the ancient ninja and sulsa did. If they do have some link to the past, then they have nothing to do with the tradition I have studied for several generations at least.

Take a look at what certain ex-members of your orginization have done (every MA orginization has ex-members that do evil stuff) and ask if you and your teacher are responsible. Are you going to cast stones at everyone who studies karate because someone who has studied it molested some of his students?

 

[twinkletoes]

A Note on the Name:

Japanese Characters are often compound characters--that is, one character is made up of smaller ones.

When Hayes changed the name to To Shin Do, he took the character for "Nin" (as in "Ninpo", "Ninjutsu" etc.) and split it in half. (The character for "Nin", which is also the character for "Shinobi" is "Sword" over "Spirit"). When you split Sword and Spirit into two characters, and put them in a row like that, they are pronounced "To" (sword) "Shin" (spirit). Then he added "Do" as in "Judo", "Aikido," "Karate-do", etc.

Perhaps he did it because he wanted To Shin Do to be more of a "character development-aimed art," instead of a combative pursuit. At this point I am merely speculating. However, there is some sneaky punnery going on here in the creation of the name "To Shin Do."

~TT

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Technopunk,
Why didn't you post that under the thread it was part of instead of here?

I dunno... cuz we were posting here I guess... I considered starting anew thread alltogether...

And to answer your question, the tradition I study and what North Korean commandos study probably has no connection at all.

Ok, I really had no Idea at all... thats why i asked... I had never heard of Sulsa anything until that post...

Take a look at what certain ex-members of your orginization have done (every MA orginization has ex-members that do evil stuff) and ask if you and your teacher are responsible. Are you going to cast stones at everyone who studies karate because someone who has studied it molested some of his students?

No not at all... again, the only time I had head the term was in your previous post, and I read that as "You MUST KILL WOMEN" to be part of that organization, not "SOME PEOPLE HAVE KILLED WOMEN"

But... again, I wanted to know, thats why I asked if it was the same group... I wasn't trying to cast stones...