State of Mind when Fighting?

[Instructor]

I have actually written about Mushin and related martial arts mental phenomena here if anybody is interested: Who is a Black Belt - Hapkido Online
Just skip down to the parts that are relevant.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting, I get what you are saying and the last thing you want to be doing when in the fight is thinking about the fight! : )
...But, given the split second decisions and often reflex/automatic responses that need to be made in a fight, particularly when you have two top fighters going at it, would you say that in that respect top level fighting is any different from say the likes of Formula 1, at least regarding the degree of micro second decisions/actions and reactions required at times during a fight?

It is generally accepted, well at least in the reading and documentaries I have watched, that the state of mind of most F1 drivers is a key factor to their success and on track ability.

Don't you think this could be equally so for a fighter? Why would it not be a good thing to work on and train one's state of mind in preparedness for fighting? This applies for competition and also separately for SD situations.

what instructor is advocating is a mindset though.

 

[ShotoNoob]

What training elements provide the "mental clarity" that you have the karateka pursuing? How do you build that skill?

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As a preface, I note "Instructor" has developed his thesis on "mushin." I haven't reviewed his work. We should recognize that this is a critically important foundational mental principle directly spelled out in the Shotokan syllabus.
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You know in all these debates, such as "TMA vs. MMA," which is better, etc. there is a ton of descriptive talk looking at the expression of the arts from the view of an observer, including the participant themselves. To competently answer these questions, I started my own traditional karate training manual. I actually took the manual to a local kung fu school to show the school instructor, hoping to be accepted with him supporting my approach I was developing. Instead, he basically told me to "get lost." However, I persisted and came back when the Master who owned the school was on the premises. He did take a look at my personal manual. He clearly wasn't impressed with my style of karate, kinda talked it down. Then he took the school instructor aside and told him to let me come & train on whatever basis i wanted....
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To speak directly to your question, my traditional karate training regimen in my manual has 5 components: (1) conditioning, (2) kihon or basics, (3) kata (forms or patterns), (4) self defense applications, (5) kumite or sparring. I also did a supplemental section on simple fighting combinations made up from the kihon techniques and some applied techniques. My approach to kumite was extraordinarily traditional with the major emphasis on 1-step sparring or ippon kumite. The nature of the regimen is of a progression starting with (1) conditioning and moving to the top with (5) sparring. The supplemental fighting combo's were treated as an extension of (2) kihon where you move from perfecting form and foundation to rudimentary application. In terms of progression, Jiyu Kumite (free sparring) is at the top (5); Ippon Kumite could be considered Level (4) along with self defense applications. In terms of sophistication & comprehensiveness, kata ranks a (5).
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All of the exercises in the 5 level progression build "mental clarity," but actually a broader set of mental capabilities in complete correctness.
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The imperative defining principle is how these exercises are trained is what matters. Critics of traditional karate, and I just read one MMA wrtier today speaking about how karate isn't seen in MMA much because of it's fixed stances, rigid technique & front on positioning causing karate to be too vulnerable in actual fighting, like to point to karateka as a bunch of stick men marching up & down the dojo like robots waiting for the instructors next command. Of course there no end to the number who actually train this way, going to class and putting their bodies into physical forms with their minds off, mindlessly reciting a gym routine.
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The process works when the karateka engages the mind actively, using the mind to consciously & deliberately direct the physical form, the body positioning, the body mechanics. Unlike muscle memory developed by athletics, traditional karate develops the actively thinking mind which is constantly in control over every precision movement. It is an internal process, where the body & mind work together in unity with the mind giving complete direction.
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This is why my kihon karate is so effective. I simply can straight punch faster than my opponent can react. I can actually block strikes using kihon karate blocks because my mental acuity is so high. The mental ability developed under kata training is what takes this mental acuity to its highest level.
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Traditional karate is not a phyiscal exercise--this is where most go wrong. Traditional karate is a mental discipline. Completion of the physical form in traditional karate is really the outward expression of that mental discipline.
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This is also why TMA > MMA. TMA is also much harder to become proficient at, takes longer, more requires knowledge, dedication & mental discipline.
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P.S. BTW, note my manual fits within the general scope of the traditional karate regimen of kihon, kata, kumite. Everything I've uncovered, IMO supports that the historical karate masters knew exactly what they were talking about.

 

[Steve]

This is also why TMA > MMA. TMA is also much harder to become proficient at, takes longer, more requires knowledge, dedication & mental discipline.

Kind of a tangent, but there are some problems with this statement. While "MMA" refers to something very specific, we've experienced many times that "TMA" is a term so broadly used and with so many different definitions, it's not very useful. I think any comparisons between MMA and TMA are flawed from the outset. While I don't think it's usually very constructive, if we must compare MMA to something, better (IMO) to be specific: MMA and TKD or some other specific style.

Being harder doesn't necessarily make something "better" or "greater than" something else. I have actually found the opposite to be true most times. There is a big difference between taking more time to do something well and taking more time because something is hard. You can make absolutely anything difficult. Take something complex and make it easy and you're on to something.

Also, something to remember is that "proficient" and "expert" are not the same thing. There are degrees of proficiency. In most cases, if something has a very long path to proficiency (ie, competence), you're probably either learning the wrong thing, or learning the right thing in the wrong way.

 

[drop bear]

Also, something to remember is that "proficient" and "expert" are not the same thing. There are degrees of proficiency. In most cases, if something has a very long path to proficiency (ie, competence), you're probably either learning the wrong thing, or learning the right thing in the wrong way.

It depends on the guy you are trying to do it to.

 

[drop bear]

This is why my kihon karate is so effective. I simply can straight punch faster than my opponent can react. I can actually block strikes using kihon karate blocks because my mental acuity is so high. The mental ability developed under kata training is what takes this mental acuity to its highest level.

That would be easy to test.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Kind of a tangent, but there are some problems with this statement. While "MMA" refers to something very specific, we've experienced many times that "TMA" is a term so broadly used and with so many different definitions, it's not very useful. I think any comparisons between MMA and TMA are flawed from the outset. While I don't think it's usually very constructive, if we must compare MMA to something, better (IMO) to be specific: MMA and TKD or some other specific style.

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Thanks for the reply. TMA is very, very diverse. Yet there is a commom underlying approach to developing the human potential that is classical across all TMAs. In that light, TMA is a defining theory on the approach to martial arts. Your ending sentence is the seed for a number of good threads. Also true is that the outward, physical comparisons have been made over & over.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Being harder doesn't necessarily make something "better" or "greater than" something else. I have actually found the opposite to be true most times. There is a big difference between taking more time to do something well and taking more time because something is hard. You can make absolutely anything difficult. Take something complex and make it easy and you're on to something.

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YES. That's why I train a relatively basic style of karate. The more complex styles offer greater skill, yet at the same time require greater competence & mastery to be effective. Your statement is also why the sport-fighting methods that rely on athletics are faster & easier to get functional at because your are relying largely on natural physical ability & reactions.
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OTOH, the traditional karate curriculum requires certain time & effort investment in order to properly forge a the TMA foundation. Virtually all traditional karate schools will tell you this--as well as seasoned karate practitioners posting all over the internet. Your final sentence is precisely how I approached my karate training in terms of technique. I looked closely at the kihon level techniques to understand the traditional karate principles. Nearly all want to get to the applications and more complex technicals and depend on those, such as Ian Abernathy does on the expert level. Wrong in principle. The karate foundation trumps technicals.
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The best example of what I am saying is that the kihon kata, which many inside & outside of karate refer to as completely impractical "BABY" level exercises & a waste of time, are actually quite sophisticated in design. The Okinawan Masters who designed these were genius in that respect, because they simplify the form so you can concentrate on the structural benefits.
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In closing to your reply, I study Shotokan for karate principles & one of the best quotes I ever heard was, "There are no shortcuts in Shotokan." The author, who was a guest commentator on an MMA website, went to say the that getting the foundation body mechanics in Shotokan takes many years of intense practice.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Also, something to remember is that "proficient" and "expert" are not the same thing. There are degrees of proficiency. In most cases, if something has a very long path to proficiency (ie, competence), you're probably either learning the wrong thing, or learning the right thing in the wrong way.

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A good discussion point, but see my prior post. What is true (IMO) is that the average karate practitioner is doing just what you say. Hence, the poor results when so many karateka go into competition, MMA, or actual self defense. I stated in the first thread I posted at three general levels of intensity of karate practice. Taking your input, layer onto that the dedication & competency of how practitioners in each level are applying the proper training principles.
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So now an ever better picture of the extremely wide disparity in effectiveness & success among karateka emerges. This is the reason I stated that most MMA fighters are going to trounce the karateka competitors in MMA. IOW, MMA > TMA in what we see in actual practice. In potential though, TMA > MMA. Reaching that potential is a steep, very steep mountain to climb.

 

[ShotoNoob]

That would be easy to test.

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The real test is the dedication and application of oneself to get to that level ("mental clarity," etc.).
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Moreover, mental discipline takes mental work in application. Otherwise the gifted or skilled athletic fighter will absolutely clean your clock. The Shotokan karate term of "KIME" speaks directly not only to mental focus, but to making choices (not well recognized).

 

[ShotoNoob]

IN SUMMARY ON THIS THREAD:
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I now think OP knows more than he let on. The translation of the meaning Heian (and similar kata among the traditional karate styles) is "CALM & PEACEFUL." The sought for state of mind.

 

[jezr74]

That would be easy to test.

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The real test is the dedication and application of oneself to get to that level ("mental clarity," etc.).
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Moreover, mental discipline takes mental work in application. Otherwise the gifted or skilled athletic fighter will absolutely clean your clock. The Shotokan karate term of "KIME" speaks directly not only to mental focus, but to making choices (not well recognized).

We are still talking about being able to block faster than someone can strike right? That's easily tested... but I suspect that you would need to have an equally trained opponent to have a result that is worth it's salt.

If it be mental clarity, good reflexes or plain luck is not the test imo, but you might attribute it so based on the result.

 

[Buka]

In self defense, if that's what this thread is about (because "fighting" is not a specific term) what we think our mindset will be while fighting - and what we discover our mindset actually is while fighting can be different. Fighting is usually fast, furious and completely unplanned. Ask a fighter. Ask a cop. Ask a predator. Ask a victim. Or someone who just gets caught in the middle.

It might come down to training, will and who you are. But I'll put my money on all of us here. Any old day.

 

[drop bear]

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The real test is the dedication and application of oneself to get to that level ("mental clarity," etc.).
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Moreover, mental discipline takes mental work in application. Otherwise the gifted or skilled athletic fighter will absolutely clean your clock. The Shotokan karate term of "KIME" speaks directly not only to mental focus, but to making choices (not well recognized).

well not really. Fight an athletic guy and see if you punch faster and block more effectively. Anyone can make the claim. Eating cake gives me superior mental focus. Bit untill i can show it works. What is the point.

 

[drop bear]

So now an ever better picture of the extremely wide disparity in effectiveness & success among karateka emerges. This is the reason I stated that most MMA fighters are going to trounce the karateka competitors in MMA. IOW, MMA > TMA in what we see in actual practice. In potential though, TMA > MMA. Reaching that potential is a steep, very steep mountain to climb.

Ok. But i put it to you that it takes greater mental clarity to fight mma than pretty much any other training. Because there is no out.

How many days a week do you train?

 

[ShotoNoob]

We are still talking about being able to block faster than someone can strike right? That's easily tested... but I suspect that you would need to have an equally trained opponent to have a result that is worth it's salt.

If it be mental clarity, good reflexes or plain luck is not the test imo, but you might attribute it so based on the result.

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I concur this is a very good discussion point, thank you.
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We have 2 golden glove boxers at our dojo. I've beaten both in in class free sparring, not formal tournaments outside the school. One is a golden gloves boxer, the other his protege.
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The first time I fought the protege, the head instructor asked me to help with the proteges upcoming test. I approached the free sparring as practicing the kihon technique for the test. The Protege turned the match into a 'tournament' to impress the instructors and the golden glove boxer how well he could do against a non-aggressive acting senior belt--me. At the outset, the protege beat me up pretty good (STRIKE "pretty" and replace with "really") with his boxing form, using alternating body shots & deft footwork. A natural athlete with a moderate size and strength advantage. this went on for about 20-30 seconds.
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Truth be told, I was flustered, my full ROM kihon karate blocking totally useless against a highly competitive boxing onslaught. The protege was aggressive yet measured, very impressive with rapid fire & placement. I was overwhelmed. I backed up (which I rarely do) to regain my composure since I was at a loss. So what do you do when your technique fails and you are thrown mentally? Traditional karate training tells you.
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First of all, T karate is the art of self defense, I was determined not to be used as a punching bag. The first tactical thought that popped into my head is that I was decided not to get hit, the old karate maximum of "defense first". My mind flashed to the Heian forms with their knifehand blocks & posturing stances--as opposed to the closed-fist kihon blocks I had been training. As the protege moved in for the kill (again), I employed the knife hand blocks in way, let's just say was unconventional. A little IanA- Picaresque, if you will. Needless to say I was actively engaging the boxer, leaving the role of a training partner behind.
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The result was 2-fold. One, I checked or impeded virtually all (not all) blows. Two, the nature of the knifehand-block defense (in typical karate stance applied for combat) along with the protege's attack going from unanswered to almost completely frustrated, broke the protege's rhythm. The protege paused, then moved in again with a right cross. At that time, I stepped in square on & shot a Right straight punch directly into the chest with enough force to stop the protege dead in his tracks. Now, I had largely taken the offensive technique & the ability of forward movement--AWAY.
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Being an aggressive individual, and determined to show the class the worth of prior training in boxing, the protege decided to COME ON STRONG and overpower me. The moment the protege started a right cross, I immediately stepped forward and executed a standard kihon block, lightly tapping the PUNCHING arm forearm muscles, A few more punches by the protege which were kihon blocked by me in similar fashion, the protege dropped both arms to the sides and stopped fighting.... basically quit.
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What in essence did I do? I had resolved to keep the interchange a training exercise. My training goal shifted from helping the protege-- to proving that karate defense works against the skilled boxer. Which at first, was most certainly an open question given my 'punching bag' status. (A) I deflected, impeded & defused the blizzard-of -rapid fire body punches attack with my custom knifehand defense, (B) ENDED the protege'S WORRY FREE forward movement with the tactical equivalent of the boxer's defensive jab, mine a R Straight Punch 2x4 rammed right into the chest @ the move in, and (C) then actively taking away the will to strike using standard kihon karate block form. My "mental clarity" was directed on shutting the protege down & that's what I did. I defeated the skilled boxer using karate defense only......
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I totally dismantled the skilled boxer opponent in a three-step fashion, with kihon karate form (with some advanced license taken) at that..

 

[jezr74]

I had to look up golden gloves, are you saying that golden gloves is like the equivalent of a black belt? (for level of expertise arguments sake)

Also, he was practicing with you for a test in boxing or karate?

Do you think age plays a significant role in mental clarity? I train with partners a lot older than I am and some a lot younger, I find the older "wiser" partners are much calmer than the younger and are more crafty than forceful, so they keep me on my toes.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I had to look up golden gloves, are you saying that golden gloves is like the equivalent of a black belt? (for level of expertise arguments sake)

Also, he was practicing with you for a test in boxing or karate?

Do you think age plays a significant role in mental clarity? I train with partners a lot older than I am and some a lot younger, I find the older "wiser" partners are much calmer than the younger and are more crafty than forceful, so they keep me on my toes.

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Golden gloves boxer is a championship designation, amateur level I believe. The protege and the golden gloves boxer were late twenties early thirties, younger than me.
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The protege's upcoming test was for belt-rank, but just like all you (rhetorical) tough competitors, the desire to win was just too much. Boxers are generally pretty competitive, however in traditional karate, the true competition is with yourself. Why I don't partake in tournaments.
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What we had was the old boxing versus karate competition. Exactly why the protege decided to box, don't know. The protege was pretty new as a karate student, a born fighter if you ask me. A lot of people think karate is for training and boxing is for actual fighting--maybe that's a factor. We have a 1st degree black-belt at our dojo who mixes boxing & karate and who cleans up at tournaments. But then again, I'm not at the tournaments to face him down....[smiley]

P.S. ON AGE: The general traditional martial art adage is that the seasoned, older practitioner, though slower in body, is faster in effect (owing to mental development, mind-body unity.)

 

[ShotoNoob]

well not really. Fight an athletic guy and see if you punch faster and block more effectively. Anyone can make the claim. Eating cake gives me superior mental focus. Bit untill i can show it works. What is the point.

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Thanks for the answer, but now we are to the limitations of a blog. Way too rhetorical response, IMO. Read my detailed sparring encounter re boxer protege.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Ok. But i put it to you that it takes greater mental clarity to fight mma than pretty much any other training. Because there is no out.

How many days a week do you train?

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There's no "out" in a self defense situation or true kumite. It's you or the opponent. That's it. The competitor with greater "mental clarity" should win in MMA or TMA or self defense. That's the TMA theory.
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In true kumite, you demonstrate that you could disable the opponent, but control yourself so that you do not. It's that exhibition of the ability to control (project) power precisely that makes the demonstration valid. Not "tag." Again, why I don't partake in tournaments.
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Every day is ideal for 1 hour. 2 Hours is better with 3 or 4 good too. Every other day or so is ok. Less than 3 or 4 times a week and it's hard to forge the traditional karate foundation, IMO. 6 hours a day for actual, formal competition, but it is important not to over train.... just spin wheels. I like to train 5 days a week as a standard. Rest & recovery is critical, as traditional karate is a development progression you just can't hurry the process, it kind of takes it's natural course.
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Why people often speak of the black-belt taking 3-5 years, depending on the level of "mental discipline" you want to attain, 7-10 years for black-belt, IMO. You can have good black-belts in 3 years, but will probably be sport fighters; 5 years to firmly establish the mental base. Why (one reason) you don't see a lot of successful traditional karateka in MMA.
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You know, everybody doesn't have either the discipline or aptitude to be a mental fighter. So the conventional MMA methods and the sport karate approach are valid for many if not most MMA competitors.
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You know the boxer protege who I shut down with karate defense only, went on to tell the head instructor how I put up a good fight unlike other students--how I was never able to launch an offense against the boxing assault. The reason there was no offense was because I purposely decided against offense. I limited myself to purely defensive strategy. I was trying to prove a hypothesis, not destroy the boxer-protege. To me, it became a "test-tube" exercise. The concept obviously flew right by. Wasn't going anywhere near full power....