State of Mind when Fighting?

[jezr74]

How is any of this tested? Or what is the basis of evidence to say one works over the other?

 

[drop bear]

To put this into the perspective of actual application, I like to say that the physically superior fighter (the athlete) /can not prevail/ over the mentally-adept fighter who is physically well conditioned (karate).

they are not separate. Or opposing forces.

But bob sap is a good example where physical superiority can overcome a lack of pretty much else.

 

[drop bear]

they are not separate. Or opposing forces.

But bob sap is a good example where physical superiority can overcome a lack of pretty much everything else.

 

[ShotoNoob]

they are not separate. Or opposing forces.

But bob sap is a good example where physical superiority can overcome a lack of pretty much else.

|
The Bob Sap observation is a good one. It also could not highlight the issue better.
|
Any traditional karate manual generally sets out as to what develops the human potential, then as other poster's I've quoted
have discussed, apply that to martial arts, self defense in practical application.
|
I think the other posters quoted have established that the mental dimension is a cornerstone in preparing successfully for martial confrontations. At least that's what I agree with....
|
OTOH, I think most sports trainers, sporting enthusiasts agree with with your proposition. That's what make the style vs. style debate & competition so interesting. And MMA makes a great laboratory to observe the results.
|
Your statement is way broad, it needs to be better defined psychologically.... Only the more reason why the topic discussed here is so little understood by so many, and even more so little practiced. OP came up with a winner!

 

[Shai Hulud]

How is any of this tested? Or what is the basis of evidence to say one works over the other?

Excellent question, and honestly (albeit sadly), I have no conclusive data other than personal experience to back up any attempt to answer that.

From my own experience training as a Judoka and with the Keys Fighting Method for a while, I've concluded that jacking and firing myself up before a sparring bout or a fight helped to shake off any jitters helps, but didn't really work for me when the fight actually began. My current Sambo instructor keeps yelling at me to "center myself", pointing out that I shouldn't lash out flurries of techniques like a slugfest, but control and pace myself, and keep watch of my sparring partner.

|
I train traditional style karate, so that is why I refer to karate, as my frame of reference. And because the karate style is so popular.
|
The concept you set forth is vastly overlooked among so many participating in martial arts, particularly MMA, IMO. I believe the failing of so many karateka, whether it be in karate competitions, or in MMA (or self defense), is founded in your reasoning. What I refer to as Mental Discipline, you more accurately explain as "mental clarity" combined with "tactical skill & expertise."
|
To put this into the perspective of actual application, I like to say that the physically superior fighter (the athlete) /can not prevail/ over the mentally-adept fighter who is physically well conditioned (karate).

There's a lot of mind-work that goes into MMA too though. Like in any martial art, first statically drilling techniques then gradually adding resistance in dynamic environments conditions mind AND muscle memory, with the ideal end result being that you assimilate every technique as second nature - an almost immediate, conditioned response developed through training. The only real difference is that MMA borrows from a variety of arts, as opposed to an arsenal of techniques coming from one school alone. My art, Sambo, while it may not be as diverse, operates on the same principle.

Mixed Martial Arts fighters have to drill A LOT to make up for the diverse array of techniques they can run into, considering the spread of martial arts so popular as bases in MMA such as Judo and BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, even Karate and Kenpo. It takes a lot of hours put in training to get your act together for 3-5 5min rounds and not lock up while applying everything you've trained for. That too requires a good deal of mental focus and clarity.

 

[ShotoNoob]

|
Well, what a display!
|
I commented on the overall karate strategy I use in the previous thread. Philosophically speaking, let me say what I wouldn't do. Dance around exchanging punches with Bob Sapp. I'm not a sport-fighter like Bob Sapp's opponent. You have to disable your opponent quickly. That means hurting him so bad he can't continue. Obviously there's an ethics issue here. But against a Bob Sapp, to quote your proposition, you are in grave danger of being overpowered from the 1st second.
|
Traditional karate provides the tools. Perhaps an MMA example was Andy Hug's spinning wheel kick (tornado kick?) that took down Mike Bernardo, who had handily dominated & punched the crap out of Hug in an earlier bout. Traditional karate isn't about physical strength & cunning against same. It's about precision tactics that leverage the body's whole power into the opponent's vulnerabilities. Stand & bang or wrestle around with a polar bear like Sapp is OFF the traditional karate menu.
|
The mental dimension is what tilts / levels the playing field against a Bob Sapp. It's up to you / me to develop the Mental Discipline martial skill to bridge that gap. Clearly on a physical level alone , defeating a Mike Tyson, Bob Sapp, nigh impossible.

 

[ShotoNoob]

...My art, Sambo, while it may not be as diverse, operates on the same principle.

Mixed Martial Arts fighters have to drill A LOT to make up for the diverse array of techniques they can run into, considering the spread of martial arts so popular as bases in MMA such as Judo and BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, even Karate and Kenpo. It takes a lot of hours put in training to get your act together for 3-5 5min rounds and not lock up while applying everything you've trained for. That too requires a good deal of mental focus and clarity.

|
The Sambo bringing the principles, to me, is more important the a vast array of techniques.
|
In fact, my perspective on traditional karate is that there is a very great number of techniques to draw on. It's the actual application, especially in the grappling area that my style of karate is lacking. However, I think too, that looking much at the technical's confuses the situation and detracts from your standing premise in the last sentence ("mental focus and clarity").
|
The KISS of traditional karate techniques can really shine when that latter is powering it...

 

[RTKDCMB]

Mark three of my best posts in your opinion with a Like and I'll answer that question.

Want a clue? Manny Pacquiao vs Floyd Mayweather.

I'm not really that invested in getting an answer.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I have always got icecream out with a spoon. It gets the icecream out but the spoon bends. If i get icecream out with a knife it works better.

Or you could just use an icecream scoop like the professionals have always done..

 

[Dirty Dog]

Or just dive in...
Especially if it's chocolate ice cream.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not really that invested in getting an answer.

Threaten to dislike five posts if he doesn't give an answer.

 

[Zero]

they are not separate. Or opposing forces.

But bob sap is a good example where physical superiority can overcome a lack of pretty much else.

I don't like Bob Sap as an example in general (!!), as in so many ways he is/was such a poor fighter! : ) But you are right and as you say formidable size and go forward mentality (until he gets hurt) gave him wins over much better fighters, often those other fighters that were also, Bob Sap aside, considered large and powerful. They would make the mistake and still try to power through the likes of Bob and come to trouble.
Sometimes size, and when a bit of fight ability is thrown in on the side, is just too big a factor.

People that have not been in fights and against much larger opponents often go on about how their superior skill, speed, agility, technique will win the day. I can't stress how much BS that is!! When you actually come to grips with a much larger opponent and stronger guy it can be a pretty sobering experience. When I was fighting heavyweight and super heavyweight I came in at about 220 pounds and pretty much all muscle from weight and power training on the side of my fight training. There was this huge Samoan guy in our club that on his heaviest stages could weigh up to 300 pounds and a bit more, a lot of muscle but also a lot of fat. On individual power exercises like squat and dead lift I could shift more weight than him and on isolated exercises, such as bicep curls I could also beat him, to his annoyance. He was a monster of a guy but I had trained for years at lifting. That said when we would square, sometimes for a test or crazy laugh I would go head to head with him either wrestling or stand up. Need-less to say, I ended up getting thrown or knocked about by a rag doll.

That said, if you have the space and are able to take on a bigger opponent on your own terms, the chances can improve. I particularly enjoyed Mirko taking off the top of Bob Sap's head with one of his signature round houses, Sap almost started crying when he hit the ground.

 

[Instructor]

Ehh, wax poetical about states of mind after the fight when you've had time to think about it. During the fight, just fight!

 

[Zero]

Ehh, wax poetical about states of mind after the fight when you've had time to think about it. During the fight, just fight!

Interesting, I get what you are saying and the last thing you want to be doing when in the fight is thinking about the fight! : )
...But, given the split second decisions and often reflex/automatic responses that need to be made in a fight, particularly when you have two top fighters going at it, would you say that in that respect top level fighting is any different from say the likes of Formula 1, at least regarding the degree of micro second decisions/actions and reactions required at times during a fight?

It is generally accepted, well at least in the reading and documentaries I have watched, that the state of mind of most F1 drivers is a key factor to their success and on track ability.

Don't you think this could be equally so for a fighter? Why would it not be a good thing to work on and train one's state of mind in preparedness for fighting? This applies for competition and also separately for SD situations.

 

[Transk53]

Ehh, wax poetical about states of mind after the fight when you've had time to think about it. During the fight, just fight!

Yeah, really quite simplistic when all said and done. A person will probably spend more time for the kettle to boil than the time spent in a confrontation.

 

[Instructor]

I can't comment on formula one driving as I have never done that. Competitive fighting is not the same as fighting for your life. I have only sparred competitively on a small handful of occasions. I felt tense going in and downright trepidation going against particularly skilled people. But in the couple of times I've had to really fight for my life, I felt terror.

The work we have done with Mushin helped me more than anything in both cases. It's less about strategizing and more about just keeping your mind open and clear, free of clutter. Using breathing to try to convert fear into something more useful. Once I enter that mushin state though everything just seems to move in slow motion and I am able to function much better.

 

[Zero]

I can't comment on formula one driving as I have never done that. Competitive fighting is not the same as fighting for your life. I have only sparred competitively on a small handful of occasions. I felt tense going in and downright trepidation going against particularly skilled people. But in the couple of times I've had to really fight for my life, I felt terror.

The work we have done with Mushin helped me more than anything in both cases. It's less about strategizing and more about just keeping your mind open and clear, free of clutter. Using breathing to try to convert fear into something more useful. Once I enter that mushin state though everything just seems to move in slow motion and I am able to function much better.

Thanks for response. It is your comments on mushin I was more thinking of and that this is applicable both for tournament and SD equally.

That said, a particular mind-set, even if training and working on such, may be different for different people...I think back to when Mark Coleman was at his peak and in particularly good condition, he would appear (and possibly was) completely psyched up/jacked up/, just a charging enraged bull-like bundle of muscle. At times it seemed like he had the "red mist" going, I remember when Shogun dislocated his shoulder and the ref had to jump in, it looked like Coleman was going to chuck the ref out of the ring and keep going at Shogun until The Axe Murderer (Wanderlei) jumped into the ring and got in between them. Coleman kicked some serious butt at times and won himself a Pride grand prix in the mix. That seemed to work for him : )

 

[Blindside]

|
The concept you set forth is vastly overlooked among so many participating in martial arts, particularly MMA, IMO. I believe the failing of so many karateka, whether it be in karate competitions, or in MMA (or self defense), is founded in your reasoning. What I refer to as Mental Discipline, you more accurately explain as "mental clarity" combined with "tactical skill & expertise."
|
To put this into the perspective of actual application, I like to say that the physically superior fighter (the athlete) /can not prevail/ over the mentally-adept fighter who is physically well conditioned (karate).

What training elements provide the "mental clarity" that you have the karateka pursuing? How do you build that skill?

 

[Transk53]

What training elements provide the "mental clarity" that you have the karateka pursuing? How do you build that skill?

From my personal viewpoint, one is bestowed at birth

 

[Instructor]

I feel that mushin can be learned. It's a host of training factors that lead to it. Some people get it right away, some figure it out later, and some never seem to get it. We have found that simply doing your drills (whatever your style may have) while focusing on breathing and letting go of distractions one by one to be effective. Loose-tight pinpoint strikes against targets while focusing on breathing and letting go of mental clutter can work. Sometimes I find it useful to focus on one thing, just that one thing, then after I have that down I let it go and focus on nothing at all. It's incredibly hard to relate or teach but it's not insurmountable.