Should kata be symmetrical?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by skribs, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    21,711
    Likes Received:
    6,367
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I was picturing the latter - much more amusing that way. I can do the other, but it would lose the transition movements between the techniques (part of the actual purpose of the form).
     
  2. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5,597
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    The former could actually be useful, now that I think about it. I did something similar when I played piano. Especially for longer pieces, I would practice/focus on the start and middle, and not always the end as much. So my piano teacher recommended, for pieces I'd be performing, play the last measure of the song. Then the last two measures. Then the last 3 measures, etc... Would be interesting to do the same thing with a kata.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    21,711
    Likes Received:
    6,367
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    That approach would keep the transition movements the same, too.
     
  4. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,610
    Likes Received:
    844
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Spokane Valley WA
    Bastards! :cool:
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,686
    Likes Received:
    661
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Location:
    Australia
    "Noooo no no no wait wait do it with the OTHER hand..." XD
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    231
    Trophy Points:
    58
    You mean do a kata of kata? If you saw what a Japanese kinder can memorize in one go you would not think any kata as complicated.
     
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,618
    Likes Received:
    1,908
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Sometime the reverse order doesn't make sense. For example, you use

    1. kick to set up a punch.
    2. punch to set up a clinch.
    3. clinch to establish a throw.

    1,2,3 makes sense. 3,2,1 doesn't not make sense. Of course if you only care about performance, it won't matter at all.
     
  8. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5,597
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    Yup. And you could separate it so it's either done with individual strikes (punch, reset. Move-punch, reset. Block move punch, reset). Or groupings of techniques (block move punch reset. Look spin kick, block move punch, reset). That could actually help narrow down exactly what parts are causing you more difficulty, and help with repetition...I may have to try this!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5,597
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    This is me being nitpicky, but 3, 2, 1 can absolutely make sense.

    Person A is best at grappling, person B is best at kicking. They are stuck in close range. Person A wants to use a kick to set up a punch and close range, then punch to get a clinch, then use the clinch to throw. However, once they are grappling, person B now wants to position the clinch so he can break out of grappling range. Then punch to protect his transition back to kicking range. Both work, for different purposes.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5,597
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    What is a Japanese kinder?
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    21,711
    Likes Received:
    6,367
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    It might not make sense, but doing them in reverse order might help show where they don't - a useful intellectual exercise in and of itself.
     
  12. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,618
    Likes Received:
    1,908
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Let's use a much simpler example. You use hip throw to throw your opponent over your back. The reverse won't make sense. I also don't think the reverse of a punch or a kick can make sense.
     
  13. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5,597
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    It wouldn't be the reverse of the motion (pulling someone up over your back, or withdrawing your punch). It would be the reverse order of techniques (punch then kick instead of kick then punch).
     
  14. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    231
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Japanese kindergarten child (Yochiensei). Kinder1, Kinder 2 etc.


    To add to what I wrote about memorization. In a Japanese dojo you get two chances to correct anything. Screw up a third time? God help you. That's why it's an M.A dojo.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. donald1

    donald1 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    3,277
    Likes Received:
    592
    Trophy Points:
    213
    That would be nice but unnecessary. If the form is not symmetrical then do it twice once normal and once reversed. If you turn towards the right then punch with your left arm then turn towards the left and punch with your right arm.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    21,711
    Likes Received:
    6,367
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I think he wasn't talking about doing the technique backwards, but reversing the order (closer to what you said previously). As for doing them completely backwards, that, again, could be a useful intellectual exercise. It'd be a chance to examine movement and balance, perhaps looking for ways to get back out of positions, rather than how to get into them. With a partner, I doubt it would be feasible (weight shifts in the other direction would require different mechanics), but I could (slowly) manage to reverse the movements of most techniques. Most of it would turn into nonsense, but there would probably be some value in determining which parts are or are not nonsense.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Finlay

    Finlay Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur
    Excellent question

    I think it depends on your view of kata. For performance and for excerise then symmetry is a good thing.

    If you view kata as a record of techniques then symmtry is not so important. All of techniques should be applied to training partners, that is where the real combative learning will take place and be refined.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,618
    Likes Received:
    1,908
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    If you want to dig out information from your form, you should try to change your form in many different ways to make sense. For example, if your form has "front kick, straight punch", you should also train:

    - front kick, hook punch.
    - front kick, hammer fist.
    - front kick, uppercut.
    - side kick, spin back fist.
    - side kick, palm chop.
    - roundhouse kick, ...
    - ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    21,711
    Likes Received:
    6,367
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    IMO, that's not changing your form, it's just working combinations. It's only changing the form if you assemble a whole new form from those combinations.
     
  20. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    624
    Trophy Points:
    303
    Location:
    Houston
    That's only one approach, Drop. Another way is to open up their centerline, giving you access to vital striking points, i.e. eyes, point of nose, chin, throat, sternum & plexus, low-center gut, groin all of which are prime things to put a fist into and which are generally accessible if you are successful getting to the rear and/or flank.

    Granted, there's lots of stuff to put a fist into on the rear/flank, too. Just pointing out that the conclusory statement that you made above isn't the be-all, end-all of fight tactics. I personally do it that way myself, following a "close 'em up to soften 'em up, then open 'em up to finish 'em" method....
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page