"Which of you by taking thought....?"

[exile]

They come up with new titles or new belts or stories of how they can kill someone without ever touching them. All to feed their ego.
Humility, honesty, integrity and moral character is something that escapes these people and no one calls them on it.
The MA's is full of these false masters and it only hurts the arts as a whole.

See, what I find hard to get my mind around is this: looking at themselves in the mirror, first thing in the morning, do any of the kind of people we've been talking about really believe that the titles, belts and so on actually make them better even as MAists? I'm not saying that people don't improve, and as they do, getting better and better over time, they will accumulate advanced rank; but the satisfaction comes, surely, from knowing inwardly how much better at doing your MA you are now than you were a year ago. It's like in sports: yes, the 'most improved player' award must be nice to win—but only because the improvement it commemorates is something which can be itemized in terms of real, tangible achievements: more runs batted in, more touchdowns or completed passes scored, more saves or interceptions on the ice. That's what the player is getting satisfaction from: the looks of admiration and appreciation s/he gets, from fans and especially teammates, after actually doing something great. Not the award itself, or the trophy...

I mean, consider this scenario: someone gets some performance award, and later on discovers that the reason they got it over their chief rivals was because of an arithmetic error on the award committee's report—or, say, leaving out a whole category of achievement where other people massively outdid you. Or someone writing down your batting average as .378 instead of .178 for whatever reason of momentary mind-loss. How many people would still feel as good about their award after learning this information as they had felt before learning it? Wouldn't most people feel bloody awful? Would people actually say, 'Hell, doesn't bother me: I was awarded the trophy/prize/award and that's what counts—that's what I based my great feelings about myself on'? Hard for me to imagine...

So I keep wondering how advancing to a belt rank two higher than what you were wearing yesterday as a result of tit-for-tat promotions involving a pal in another association, or any of the zillion other kinds of similar things, could make you feel good about yourself. Ego, definitely; but what I don't see is, why would unmerited status, something not backed up by actual performance, feed anyone's ego? Is it a matter of people being so deluded that they believe that if they got the award or promotion or whatever in question, they must have done something tangible and real to earn it, regardless of the fact that they can't actually say what it was? To me, that sounds too weird for words, but what other explanation is there?

 

[kaizasosei]

recently i have had some contact with various spiritual groups.
upon experiencing the stories, talks and issues in a few different places, i came to the conclusion that there was often something missing. courage and expereince. like the courage and experience of a warrior. for example a mma. if some of those people could become spiritual authority or simply a community, it would have much greater success, i thought.

i feel for mma that they(=we) are some of the most real and tough martial artists, and yet i sense that many tma people curse mma and ridicule it in secrecy, often not even having the courage to test their own physical and spiritual abilities by getting into the ring.
i hope that mma does not become infected with this spirit of conceit, but i feel it deserves more respect as a truly martial tradition in the making.

j

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm not sure I understand you there kaiza - am I missing your point or is what you're saying somewhat at a tangent to the core of the thread?

 

[teekin]

See, what I find hard to get my mind around is this: looking at themselves in the mirror, first thing in the morning, do any of the kind of people we've been talking about really believe that the titles, belts and so on actually make them better even as MAists? I'm not saying that people don't improve, and as they do, getting better and better over time, they will accumulate advanced rank; but the satisfaction comes, surely, from knowing inwardly how much better at doing your MA you are now than you were a year ago. It's like in sports: yes, the 'most improved player' award must be nice to win—but only because the improvement it commemorates is something which can be itemized in terms of real, tangible achievements: more runs batted in, more touchdowns or completed passes scored, more saves or interceptions on the ice. That's what the player is getting satisfaction from: the looks of admiration and appreciation s/he gets, from fans and especially teammates, after actually doing something great. Not the award itself, or the trophy...

I mean, consider this scenario: someone gets some performance award, and later on discovers that the reason they got it over their chief rivals was because of an arithmetic error on the award committee's report—or, say, leaving out a whole category of achievement where other people massively outdid you. Or someone writing down your batting average as .378 instead of .178 for whatever reason of momentary mind-loss. How many people would still feel as good about their award after learning this information as they had felt before learning it? Wouldn't most people feel bloody awful? Would people actually say, 'Hell, doesn't bother me: I was awarded the trophy/prize/award and that's what counts—that's what I based my great feelings about myself on'? Hard for me to imagine...

So I keep wondering how advancing to a belt rank two higher than what you were wearing yesterday as a result of tit-for-tat promotions involving a pal in another association, or any of the zillion other kinds of similar things, could make you feel good about yourself. Ego, definitely; but what I don't see is, why would unmerited status, something not backed up by actual performance, feed anyone's ego? Is it a matter of people being so deluded that they believe that if they got the award or promotion or whatever in question, they must have done something tangible and real to earn it, regardless of the fact that they can't actually say what it was? To me, that sounds too weird for words, but what other explanation is there?

External locus of control? Seeking approval from others as a way to justify your actions? Maybe the applause and admiration of ignorant young kids is sufficient to drown out the little voice whispering " you are nothing" that repeats endlessly in the night in Soke's shallow and troubled mind. The fact that he continues to expand that Fantasy Land web site of his tells me he hasn't drown out the voices yet but has found some followers. (Care for some Kool-aid?) They don't want tangible, that would be incongrous and the voices would have something concrete to point to. The Fantasy must be maintened or expanded.
Power over others, repetitive Demonstatable power over others feeds not only the ego but Id and assures the frightened mind that you have Power and Power=Control=Saftey.

Exile, you can live in the real world. Soke ran away long long ago. I don't think he's coming back by choice. ( I have to admit, I'd love to go visit Fantasyland. It would be funny........ till you started to talk to the students)

Lori

 

[Big Don]

One says, hey, I was just doing what I like to do.

Find a job you love, and you'll never work again

 

[kaizasosei]

no biggie. just some fleeting thoughts and feelings. may not be more to it than that. i bet that at least some of the very issues i describe have already been discussed ad nauseum in other threads.


j

 

[morph4me]

The best fighters I've ever known have never taken a martial art, they've never competed, they don't have belts or golden gloves, they just do what they have to do. They walk with confidence because they've been there and done that, and survived it and came back stronger. The thing they don't do is brag to everyone how good they are, they mind their own business. They have a presence that says everything that has to be said, to those who are perceptive enough to hear and understand it. They aren't impressed by peoples titles, or ranks, or trophies or records. Most of us could learn alot from these kinds of people, if we could cut through the ******** and and ego and get a realistic assessment of our skills ,we'd be very suprised to find out how much is lacking .

 

[YoungMan]

Exile,
as usual you are waaay overanalyzing things. I practice for myself, help others see the beauty of Taekwondo, and try not to think about it too much.

 

[Cirdan]

Now look at the rank-hogging, posturing and pretense that we see so often in the MAs, with people strutting around at way-inflated belt levels, or arguing bitterly who was the designated lineage-carrier, or who was so-and-so's favorite student or got the Good Stuff that so-and-so reserved only for an elite in-group, or stuff like that... it's not a MA thing exclusively, but we do see an awful lot of it in the MAs. And it makes me wonder, does anyone think that in reality they've added one tiny little bit to their stature when they get an extra bit of paper distinction?

I think the thing with all the ultra grandmasters and their kind is that they don`t really know what the arts are. To understand this you have to spend some time on dedicated training with no nonsense instruction. They have either never had this or are just too plain stupid to even try. To them the certificates, glitter, cermonies and praise from their personal little cults, that really is the essence of martial arts.

Then there is the other more sneaky breed that have a clever scheme to earn $$$s. The difference is that those might actually be good at the arts but inflate their rank and teach crap to the gullible.

 

[exile]

Exile,
as usual you are waaay overanalyzing things. I practice for myself, help others see the beauty of Taekwondo, and try not to think about it too much.

I don't actually think I'm analyzing anything here—I'm just struck by the contrast between the case of those physicists on the one hand and what we often see in the MAs on the other. And it's not just the MAs, of course.

I think the thing with all the ultra grandmasters and their kind is that they don`t really know what the arts are. To understand this you have to spend some time on dedicated training with no nonsense instruction. They have either never had this or are just too plain stupid to even try. To them the certificates, glitter, cermonies and praise from their personal little cults, that really is the essence of martial arts.

That could be. It's hard for me to imagine what it would be like to actually have that attitude as one's default view of things, but it could well be true...

Then there is the other more sneaky breed that have a clever scheme to earn $$$s. The difference is that those might actually be good at the arts but inflate their rank and teach crap to the gullible.

I could almost understand these latter types better than the first kind—con artists are completely cynical, they know the score and their whole scam is based it. It's the first type, though, the ones who genuinely think that they really are better or more important MAists (or academics or whatever) because of these completely external bits of decoration they acquire... that just seems so strange.

 

[Cirdan]

It's the first type, though, the ones who genuinely think that they really are better or more important MAists (or academics or whatever) because of these completely external bits of decoration they acquire... that just seems so strange.

Hehe. Have you seen all the videos at youtube of so-called redneck ninjas practicing in the back yard with their 440 katana? They think they are experts at what they do. Swinging a mail-order sharp piece of metal makes them modern samurai in their minds. The sokey dokeys just take it one step further.

 

[YoungMan]

Keep in mind, America is the land of ego, flash, money, and Hollywood. It is only natural that this would filter into martial arts. You will always have people who live to impress with medals, certificates (legitimate or otherwise), fancy uniforms, fancy titles, and dreams of being the next movie star.
I just laugh it off and ignore it. What else can you do?