Shorinjin Saito-Ryu Ninjitsu

[Karasu Tengu]

Its a funny thing to me that this is still going on. Chris Moon was suppost to have his "Hawaiian Historical Expert" contact me about Uncle David. Never heard from this expert or Chirs.

Yeah. Shorinjin is about as authentic as Ninpo, you know that word Takamatsu is claimed to have made up! Lets not forget the word Ninjitsu being right up there as well. I have a J2E Dictionary from 1956 and the word Ninpo isn't in it.

Don what you have asked for is documentation as would be seen in Koryu type organizations. Now I've alwyas given you credit for your knowledge of the Japanese language and such. But you are not all knowing when it comes to the total history of "Ninpo". I doubt there is anyone alive today who can claim that. You've referenced the BRD but it is limited. Very informative but still limitedsince it deal with Ryuha that were known public. Saito, a sirname, was most likely adopted after the Meji Restoration by the family when peasents were finally allowed to have sirnames and therefore were not of the ruling class. They (peasentry) were most likely illiterate until after that time so how and why should they document a family art never before taught outside the family? It was never taught in "Offical Dojo's" as a Ryuha. It is being taught that way now and Mark Saito Jr. is getting family documentation and research together now, though not to provide proof to you or anyone else but to preserve his heritage.

Face it you don't know squat about the Saito's art and none of your so called experts have ever really seen much of it . You don't practice the art so you are not privy to what is taught. Neither Wayne, Dr. Friday, Dave Lowery have sat down with any of the Saitos to discuss it. They never seem to go to the source. I will say I was not present when Dr. Friday met with Master Phelps for the AWMA article so I don't know what he saw or if he only saw the some still photo's.

So unless you are goig to post some records from Fukushima or have some expert on Farmer Clans and thier method of documentation them I wouldn't bother posting your information.

As for Ihab. You may be involved the art but you don't appear to know much about it from your posts. You would be better off staying out of these discussions.

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Its a funny thing to me that this is still going on. Chris Moon was suppost to have his "Hawaiian Historical Expert" contact me about Uncle David. Never heard from this expert or Chirs.

So you say someone didn't take the time to contact you so you don't have to prove anything, eh?

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Yeah. Shorinjin is about as authentic as Ninpo, you know that word Takamatsu is claimed to have made up! Lets not forget the word Ninjitsu being right up there as well. I have a J2E Dictionary from 1956 and the word Ninpo isn't in it.

Ooops, you just walked into the one. Takamatsu did not make up the term ninpo, that is an internet rumor that Jay Bell helped disprove. Takamatsu may have polularized it, but the term Ninpo was used as part of the title of a manual published in 1728. You can find the book listed in the book "Ninja no Subete" page 449.

See how easy it is to give sources in Japan!

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Don what you have asked for is documentation as would be seen in Koryu type organizations.

Blaaat! Wrong! I have asked for any documentation to back up your claims. I can provide plenty of proof that I study martial arts. No one has provided any proof that Saito learned martial arts like he said he did.

And lets face it, the stories from the Saito ryu are just plain wrong and show a great ignorance of the subject matter if you know what to look for. There were no Shaolin priests in Japan. The Japanese went gaga over actual Chinese monks coming to Japan and there would have been records. There are not and there is no records of the shaolin being part of literature in Japan prior to the modern age so that their appearence in the legend of the Shorinjin is like an Aztec temple being part of Technopunks story of the axe methods he learned from the Vikings.

So any source, any source at all would be nice. You do not know much of anything about Japan, its martial arts etc and are just pulling things out of you **** to try to make sense to people who do not know better. Do you know the literacy rate for peasents during the Edo period? I do and you are just blowing smoke as to why there are not written records.

So please stop the smoke screen and get us some facts.

 

[Ihab]

I DONT KNOW WHY YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING

HOW MANY TIMES DID WE SAY THERE ARE NO WRITTEN RECORDS OF THE ART, IT WAS MADE PUBLIC TO THE WORLD IN 1966

IF YOU READ PHELPS'S ARTICLE YOU WOULD KNOW SHORINJIN IS NOT A JAPANESE WORD
I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE REFFERING TO IN SHAOLIN IN JAPAN

TENGU THANKS,
I'M NOT KNOWLEDGEBLE IN JAPANESE HISTORY BUT I KNOW SAITO HISTORY

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
HOW MANY TIMES DID WE SAY THERE ARE NO WRITTEN RECORDS OF THE ART, IT WAS MADE PUBLIC TO THE WORLD IN 1966

And there are no written records of the International Illuminati.

There would have been some sort of proof to Mark Saito sr's claim if there was any truth to it. As I said, I can prove my own training history through a variety of means. And there would be no reason for the Saito art to be secret from the Japanese after the war or so. None that does not involve something that sounds like a bad comic book.

There are civilian arts in Japan from the Edo period. Take a look at the Nagao ryu. They have written records. No secrecy, no conspiracy theories, no silly stories that involve guys like Shaoling monks that the Japanese would not have been aware of and no Japanese terms (example- "shorinjin") so bad it makes every Japanese I know of laugh themselves silly.

Originally posted by Dale Seago
Personally, I'd like to know more. Please?

Well Dale, my question really was directed at the Saito ryu guys and of course they don't want me to reveal just how wrong their story is and instead say that unless I can prove that the International Illuminati does not exist we should act like it is just as legitimate as the DMV. Ooops, of course I should have said "Saito ryu" instead of "International Illuminati" even though the logic is the same.

How about you tell us about the little incident you witnessed between Mark Saito sr and Don Angier?

 

[Karasu Tengu]

And show the picture to prove it as well!

 

[Ihab]

DON YOU SHOULD GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT
IT WAS MARK SAITO JR AND DON ANGIER
SR HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT

FOR 2ND TIME SHORINJIN IS NOT JAPANESE

SO IN ORDER FOR A MARTIAL ART TO BE LIGETAMATE IT NEEDS TO BE REGISTERED WITH THE INTERNATIONAL ILLUMNAI ! HUMM

ABOUT PROOF
PLEASE DONT TURN WORDS AROUND I SAID YOU SHOULD TALK TO SAITO SR BEFGORE CALLING HIM A LIAR

 

[Ihab]

i agree
if you have anything show it

 

[Ihab]

my last post was a TYPO
i would like to see what other "CREDIBLE" evidemce Don can provide

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
FOR 2ND TIME SHORINJIN IS NOT JAPANESE

Exactly my point! So if Mark Saito sr said that it was the word that a native speaker used when teaching him that kind of indicates that he is lying about it since a native speaker woudl not have used it.

Originally posted by Ihab

SO IN ORDER FOR A MARTIAL ART TO BE LIGETAMATE IT NEEDS TO BE REGISTERED WITH THE INTERNATIONAL ILLUMNAI ! HUMM

I can't tell if you are trying to confuse the issue or if you really lack the ability to understand the humor I was using. Using all caps kind of says that you are not the most polite or the most bright guy on the block.

BTW, you may have forgotten that I asked you to contribute some sort of independently verifiable proof to this debate. You don't seem to be able to provide any such proof AT ALL and we are back to the same type of arguments that we see from Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan and Frank Dux.

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Don, Ihab is confused.

 

[Ihab]

huh
at least you have a sense of humor
to make up for your serious lack of knowledge

if you read like you say you did
you would know what is the shorinjin, where its from, and why it doesnt make sense in japanese language

you wrote so much about mistakes saitos have in their story
i've asked you a few times what do you have? show me

but you like to keep spining off to a different poit everytime i ask you

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
huh
at least you have a sense of humor
to make up for your serious lack of knowledge

Yep, now we are down to the insult stage of the thread. Never fails. When a group of frauds is pushed into a corner due to lack of fact and lgic, one of their number is designated the flamer and starts attacking.

Originally posted by Ihab
if you read like you say you did
you would know what is the shorinjin, where its from, and why it doesnt make sense in japanese language

Excuse me, have you actually read the article Phelps wrote? I have, but even Steve is saying that you are a confused person.

Originally posted by Ihab
you wrote so much about mistakes saitos have in their story
i've asked you a few times what do you have? show me

Ok, I just want the moderators to realize that I ahve been asked to show the numerous mistakes in the Saito story and such. I am only responding to a request that they made.

And I will give you all a few hours to wait for the other shoe to drop.:EG:

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Hey at least it will be interesting Don. I do hope it will include some actual research from Fukushima and Farmer Families as well as the names of experts and how to contact them vice "The people I spoke to" comments. Anything less is hearsay and nebulous.

As for Uncle David. When someone tells me that they are going to have 'Thier Expert' prove to me how FOS someone is and they don't follow through then I attribute it to the "Baby Bird Syndrome".

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu :
Yeah. Shorinjin is about as authentic as Ninpo, you know that word Takamatsu is claimed to have made up! Lets not forget the word Ninjitsu being right up there as well. I have a J2E Dictionary from 1956 and the word Ninpo isn't in it. [\quote]

Followed by don Roley
Ooops, you just walked into the one. Takamatsu did not make up the term ninpo, that is an internet rumor that Jay Bell helped disprove. Takamatsu may have polularized it, but the term Ninpo was used as part of the title of a manual published in 1728. You can find the book listed in the book "Ninja no Subete" page 449.

See how easy it is to give sources in Japan!

Ok the word Ninpo was made up in 1728 and not put into any dictionaries!? That's not quite ancient and not very good documentation for such a festidious people if you ask me. Then it was revised (read as rediscorvered) by Takamatsu who was given credit for its origin by more than just a few BJK people. So if the word "Shorinjin" were written or referenced even only once some time before 1900's there would be no argument then?

OK maybe you can answer this for me Don.

Out of the roughly 120+/- Ninja Clans that are thought to have existed in the Iga/Koga region, why is there not more documentation as to thier techniques, methods and lineage? Shouldn't there be more densho surviving in museums somewhere? I'm trying to be as legit with this question as I can.

With the exception of a few Koryu Ryuha that include aspects of Ninjutsu in their training, the BJK the only "Full Ninjutsu Ryu" with such "detailed documentation". (I will remind you that this documentation has been noted by experts you have quoted in arguments against everyone else, to contain descrepancies.) Doesn't this violate your rule of the Japanese documenting everything?

As for you Illuminati reference. There are over 500K references on the net. Some are listed by the Catholic Church. So what was your point? Documention?

All: I and everyone else who practice the Saito art have nothing against the BJK, it's members or Hatsumi. This is an old argument by some of this group who have never seen nor trained with any of us. I remind you that Hastumi's own writings state that the history of Ninjutsu is open to interpretation by those scholars who endeavor to define it.

Finally Don. The woman you mentioned on another board was the one who invited Phelps to Japan.

OK time to go to another board and see this dead horse get beaten all over again.

Later

 

[Don Roley]

Hey at least it will be interesting Don. I do hope it will include some actual research from Fukushima and Farmer Families as well as the names of experts and how to contact them vice "The people I spoke to" comments. Anything less is hearsay and nebulous.

Oh, more of your line of "unless you ask EVERYONE in Japan and they ALL say no, then we have to accept my words as truth". I guess it would be too hard to ask the people making the claim that Saito ryu existed prior to Mark Saito sr to provide some sort of proof, eh?

Ok the word Ninpo was made up in 1728 and not put into any dictionaries!?

Did I say it was invented in 1728? no I did not. I said I found a book listing it as part of it's title that has been dated to 1728. How long it had been in use before that I do not know. And (chuckle) did you check ALL the dictionaries, even those only in Japanese?

The problem with the term "Shorinjin" is not only that it does not exist in Japanese, but that it is GRAMMATICALY INCORRECT. It is like saying "header instructinger" in Englsih. Native people laugh at it, including my wife and co-workers.

Out of the roughly 120+/- Ninja Clans that are thought to have existed in the Iga/Koga region, why is there not more documentation as to thier techniques, methods and lineage? Shouldn't there be more densho surviving in museums somewhere? I'm trying to be as legit with this question as I can.

There are some damn good documentation out ther for some. But there is no documentation for the Saito ryu in Japan or prior to Mark Satio sr AT ALL.

We know that there were groups in several regions known as ninja. There is no more reference to the Saito ryu version of events as there is for Vikings running around in Heian period Japan.

As for you Illuminati reference. There are over 500K references on the net. Some are listed by the Catholic Church. So what was your point? Documention?

Oh God. I forget that you have to be as dense as a Neutron star to take the Saito ryu story seriously enough to study it.

There is no proof to the theory that there is a international conspiracy controlling the world called the Illuminati. Nothing. Infact, several facts dispute the theory's version of events. People who believe in this crack pot theory point to the fact that there is no proof as proof in itself that there is a very effective conspiracy going on.

The logic is exactly the same as that used by the Saito ryu. There is no proof. There is nothing in Japan, there is nothing prior to Mark Satio, there is nothing in records and many of the things Mark Saito says (like the use of Shorinjin) contricts known facts. So, you guys just say that it is all because of an old need to be secret. And there is no reason to be secret that does not sound like a bad comic book plot.

Finally Don. The woman you mentioned on another board was the one who invited Phelps to Japan.

Give her name and tell the story again. I want her to hear exactly how you paint her and her involvement. No beating around the bush. I want a story to send to her and give you no room to excuse your way out of it. Better yet, how about Phelps himself post the details. He is a registered member here. He can type can't he? If you say something and this person says it is very, very wrong, I know you guys will just say that it was your mistake and not Phelps lying.

In fact, I say this. Unless Phelps posts the story himself, I see no reason ti believe it. As long as he is afraid to post, I see no treason to believe heresay from you.

Yes, yes, at this point you talk about how Hatsumi wil not post here, etc. Seen it before, but Phelps is a member here and he is not standing up to verify this story. So I don't see why we should believe it.

And of course, once HE says it, there is no way he can make excuses for it not being true. So we will never see him post again.

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Don you know the story about the invitation. You have her name and she is referenced on the TFAM website as well. Again you are not following through with you comments. You say you will ask but you never do. Same old rhetoric. :idunno:

There are a number of logical reasons why there is no documentation available in Japan.
First, as has been stated on other boards, the Saito art was not a Ryu in the context of Koryu Tradition which is what opponents of the Saito's are going by. It was a family art not taught to those outside the family until 1966. Since it is now being taught then it can qualify as a Ryu, school, method...There are plenty of people who studied with Mr. Saito in 1966 who attest to the fact that he always called it Ninjitsu. He is not claiming Koga or Iga affiliation like Dux or Kim or Duncan nor is he making claims to have started the "Ninja Craze" that's Hayes's dubious distinction. All he claims is that his art was passed to him by his Grandfather. There are still many things including another "Ryu" who is not public, does not teach to anyone outside its "family" and claims to be of the Ninpo lineage. Again I have only heard of its existance. I have NOT been told who they are only that the person who is familiar with them stated that they DO have their Densho attesting to thier lineage. If I had any other info on them I would surely share it.

Second. The Saito's by Pre Meji Japanese Social Cast were rice farmers from Fukushima. Again you continually fail to state any contradictory reference as to how and by what method this Peasent Class documented anything. You are in Japan so this should be relatively easy for you. We also know historically that public education and literacy were practically non existant for the majority of this class outside the context of their "Life Assignment" as dictated by the Tokugawa's prior to the Meji Era and the erradtication of the Shogun System. So you are still avoiding this documentation question.

Third. Hanshichi (the correct spelling) Saito did immigrate in the early part of 1900 (1906/7). He is stated by the Saito's (Mr. Saito's late mother as well) as being the last remaining family member holding Mastery of this art. Now we all know Saito is a sirname and that you have a problem with Hanshichi being Mr. Saito's Maternal Grandfather. You have stated that "No Japanese with the same last name ever marry". Again this would be incorrect. Who knows what the families in the village called themselves BEFORE 1886. They took the name, as many of the peasent class did, either from the area or ruling family. Just because they may have the same last name does not mean they were "blood related". Also marriages were more than likely arranged by parents as well.

Language: Yes know more about this than I but I'm working on it. What I know of the language is that regions had different dialects. Fukushima is 200km north of Tokoyo and had/has a different dialect. Also, the language spoken today is different than that of 100+ years ago. So the possibility and probability of a local or even village word of pre 1900 usage being laughable by modern Japanese is OK with me. 150 years ago English was spoken differently and many words that were once used are laughable today.

Saito/Illuminati: So what's the conspiracy. The Saito's want an organization with over 150,000 members and 10,000 Shihan and dominate the world? Not! None of the Saito's are actively teaching and they collect no revenue from the art so what's thier motivation? They merely want the art to continue...that's all.

Don you also have NEVER answered this question. What did Hatsumi say to you personally, since you have placed yourself in the position as his internet mouthpiece because he does not own a computer and is not registered on this board, when you asked him about Phelps's visit with him? Or did you even ask. I as well as many other would like to know. Actually Hatsumi is probably the only person, with the exception of those who were with him during the Phelps visit, that actually witnessed this art.

Did I say it was invented in 1728? no I did not. I said I found a book listing it as part of it's title that has been dated to 1728. How long it had been in use before that I do not know. And (chuckle) did you check ALL the dictionaries, even those only in Japanese?

I checked several J2E dictionaries available to me. The oldest one had over 2000 pages. Why did you?

Everyone, this has all been discussed to death. The only one who keeps bringing it up is Don. Rather than refer questions about the art to Saito people he starts this all over again. We do not talk about the discrepancies that have been found in the BJK. I am the only one who brings that up but only as reminders for Don. On the contrary. We even tell people who inquire into our art who are outside our school areas (other cities and Sates. etc) to seek out the Bujinkan and Genbukan. So we do not have any animosity toward them. As it is this topic isn't even allowed on ebudo because nothing was resolved. I will say this. Mark Saito Jr. is actively working on his family's geneology and is planning a trip to Japan to do research. What he brings back will be the official word on the matter.

 

[Don Roley]

Don you know the story about the invitation. You have her name and she is referenced on the TFAM website as well. Again you are not following through with you comments. You say you will ask but you never do. Same old rhetoric. :idunno:

The invitation never happened as you say it did. Provide proof that it did please. Hatsumi did not know who Phelps was when he was asked about it by one of my friends. (He beat me to it and I do not see a reason to repeat the question.) So provide some proof to your claim. Oops, rather, let us see Phelps himself try to state the story and provide proof. I have seen the whole thing of a "master" sits back while an underling tells lies and when the lies are exposed he steps forward and says that he never said the things that he was supposed to and it was all a mistake of his underling. Now we see Phelps not give a name or give his account of how things happend. And no proof of course.

There are a number of logical reasons why there is no documentation available in Japan.

Yes, Mark Saito sr made it all up is the easiest and most logical one. Either that or we start believing things that sound like Illuminati conspiracy theories. Ever hear of the Nagao ryu? Civilian art, not samurai, that existed during the pre-Meiji era. It has WRITTEN records and what it says does not contridict known historical facts like the Saito ryu does. Go and get a copy of Serge Mol's book on classical Japanese arts and you will see that the peasent class in Japan did indeed have the ability to produce some sort of records and they were not secret arts for fear of being eliminated like you try to present the story.

Let us face facts, there is no more substance to the story of Mark Saito sr than there is for Frank Dux, Ashida Kim or other well known frauds. You have the same lack of proof, the same discrpencies in your story and use the same tactics and excuses. So, you should not be surprised when you are treated like them. If you don't like it, then show some proof and quit trying to get people to accept you until you do.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Honestly, having nothing to do with Ninjutsu... I find it painstakenly hard to grasp the idea of sooo many Ryuha existing in the Feudal Era of Japan, and only so few surviving till this day. Then again, I don't have much knwledge of this subject. Ignorance is bliss?... :idunno:



:asian:
THuNdeR_FoOT

 

[Cryozombie]

Everyone, this has all been discussed to death. The only one who keeps bringing it up is Don.

Actually, I belive IHAB brought the argument back up.

And I am no expert on the subject, but I do find the lack of evidence astounding... I can accept that the "Peasant Farmers" who created this art couldnt or wouldnt write it down...

But I have a hard time with some of the facts as presented...

Like the fact that No examples of the "Tengu Sword" exist outside of the Saito clan, but if the art is that old, SOMEWHERE there have to be ancient examples of the blades.

Also the fact that They call it Ninjitsu (and I dont care about the spelling) but state very plainly it is not... That would be like me creating something like, I dont know, A Pocket Knife for example, and calling it "A Fully Automatic Assult Rifle" by taking the name of somthing illegal in the country of origin and calling something that isnt even a rifle a rifle... Why would you do that?

I still say the entire thing sounds like my "Viking" art from norway.

 

[Don Roley]

Honestly, having nothing to do with Ninjutsu... I find it painstakenly hard to grasp the idea of sooo many Ryuha existing in the Feudal Era of Japan, and only so few surviving till this day.

There was not all that many ninjutsu ryuha. There was only about a hundred thoughout history.

And the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten starts listing schools on page 9 and goes on to page 922 with about eight schools per page. There is nowhere near that many schools being practiced now.

There was a huge dying off of classical schools once Japan entered the modern age. There just was no more need for them. There was no conspiracy or attempt to stamp them out. It was just a case of them being about as relevent to most modern Japanese as a butter churn is for us.

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Originally Posted by Karasu Tengu
Don you know the story about the invitation. You have her name and she is referenced on the TFAM website as well. Again you are not following through with you comments. You say you will ask but you never do. Same old rhetoric.


The invitation never happened as you say it did. Provide proof that it did please. Hatsumi did not know who Phelps was when he was asked about it by one of my friends.

Lets see.. I saw and read the email invitation.
I tasked you to ask Hatsumi over a year ago and you never came through on that. Now you say "a friend" has "asked" but not you. You seem to only do what is convienient to your argument Don. Too many people without names or ways to contact them to verify your stories. When ever anyone questions you on this you come back with "its not about us its about you".
You have not traveled to Fukushima to even attempt to verify anything.
You have never attempted to witness any of our techniques and provided no proof by anyone who says they have. Including Mr. Aniinger (sp). If he has no documentation on his experience (i.e. pictures) then why should I believe it took place. Because he or you say so. Hardly.

You keep refering to Classic Japanese Arts and Ryu. I've answered this question already. I am sure one can find a good number of family techniques covering various occupations (farming, carving, fish hook construction. etc) not listed in established historical records written by the ruling class.

Though you have no reason to believe me, and I don't hold that against you because I do understand your position. I would love to get ahold of records of the art or even another family member in Japan. I believe I stated Mark Saito Jr. is working on this.
I do have two students, on who's parents are Japanese (1st generation immigrant), and another who's Grandmother is Japanese and also an immigrant who have seen what we do and have no questions about it not being of Japanese origin. So basically until the Mark Saito Jr. publishes his findings this debate of authentisity will continue. Or you can come by the schools and see for yourself.

If anyone wants to wade through the 15 pages of the original ebudo thread click the link. e-budo Saito Thread