Shorinjin Saito-Ryu Ninjitsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Cthulhu, Sep 1, 2001.

  1. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    There is also a Shorinjin Saito-Ryu Ninjitsu. Note that they use "-jItsu" rather than the more common "-jUtsu". They also implement a rather odd sword, which they call the 'Tengu sword', where the sword is 'backwards' from a typical katana or ninja-to. To be more specific: from outward (sheathed) appearance, the swords seems to be your typical sheathed blade. However, What is normally the scabbard (saya) on a normal sword is actually the long hilt/handle of the Tengu sword. The short blade (maybe a little longer than a tanto) is sheathed in what appears to be a normal sword's handle. The Journal of Asian Martial Arts ran an article by a Rev. Shannon Phelps which had pictures of the sword, as well as techinques of the system. If anyone is interested, I can try to dig up the volume and number of that particular issue.

    Cthulhu
     
  2. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Whoops, need to correct on error:

    The system I was speaking of is actually called Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu. The article is in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 5, Number 4, 1996.

    Cthulhu
     
  3. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    Cthulhu,

    Saito ryu NinjItsu. Do wonders never cease..

    The sword you are speaking of doesn't come from Saito ryu. Nor is Saito ryu a legitimate school of Japanese martial arts in any way, shape or form.

    The sword that Saito ryu calls "The Tengu Sword" *chuckle* is from the Togakure ryu. This is what in history was referred to as a shinobi-to. It's blade is 21 inches (very short for a katana), yet the tsuka and typical size (13-15 inches). This gave the opponent the idea that a full length katana was being used.

    In situations where batto was used, the opponent could reach over to draw their sword. The shinobi-to, being so short, simply involved a flip of the wrist to draw and set the blade against an opponent's drawing arm. As the opponent drew their blade, they would cut themselves from the motion.

    :soapbox:

    (suggestion: have a smiley that is a dog barking :D)

    PS - No sword of traditional Ninpo was ever straight
     
  4. higuma

    higuma Guest

    Hey guys,

    Jay you are correct but I think you and cthulu are discussing different things. The "tengu sword" is not Shannon Phelps name for the ninjato. It is an entirely different animal, likely a product of Phelps' overactive imagination. This came up recently on another board and a friend of mine (who is also in San Diego) answered some questions about the weapon in question. I am attaching his comments on the subject below.

    And I would like to clarify (for the non-ninpo types on the board) that while I cannot vouch for the effectiveness or non-effectiveness of what Mr. Phelps is teaching, I can say... it is not ... I say again... NOT ninpo, ninjutsu, etc.

    ps. Jay did you really call me a bully over at kutaki...? :p :D
     
  5. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Well, I'm not speaking for the validity of the system, just tossing it out their for others to see. The fact that they spell in 'ninjitsu' rather than the correct 'ninjutsu' instantly separates it form the bujutsu.

    Jay, Higuma is correct about the 'tengu' sword. It is not the ninja-to, but another bladed weapon entirely, where the blade is less than half the length of the handle. I believe Higuma's description was better than the one I offered.

    Again, I'm not saying anything about the validity of the system. This is a board for sharing information, so I chose to toss this up on the forum because many probably have never even heard of the system before.

    :cheers:

    Cthulhu
     
  6. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    Higuma,

    haha...the whole lot of ye! :D
     
  7. higuma

    higuma Guest

    Hey guys,

    Here is the link to a pic of Phelps' arsenal... including the "tengu sword".

    http://www.fullautumnmoon.com/background/swords.jpg

    Again, based on this photo alone, I have to say that what ever this guy is studying/teaching is not ninjutsu :nuke: . Sorry, cthulu, but I have this need to call a spade a spade... Just ask Jay. :shrug:
     
  8. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    Yeah...what he said.

    :D
     
  9. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Sigh. Again, I'm not making any claims as to what this Phelps is teaching. I believe I did mention that they make their own distinction from ninjutsu by intentionally spelling it ninjItsu.

    In the Journal of Asian Martial Arts article, practically nothing Phelps demonstrated is similar to 'classical' ninjutsu. Again, I'm just tossing this up on the forum to share with others. I'm not claiming that this is 'authentic' ninjutsu.

    Cthulhu
     
  10. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    Cthulhu,

    Understood...we aren't hammering a flush nail here. He was just agreeing with what I had said about them not being traditional.
     
  11. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    How widely accepted is the notion that it should be -jutsu not -jitsu? I use the two variants more-or-less interchangeably. Is there an accepted standard for transliteration that insists on -jutsu rather than -jitsu?
     
  12. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    I don't know of any 'official' standard, but it is generally accepted that the correct romanization is '-jutsu'. The pronounciation of the Japanese word is definitely a 'u' sound rather than an 'i'. However, BJJ systems usually use the '-jitsu' spelling, possibly to further distinguish themselves from Japanese jujutsu.

    Also, every published work written by a qualified, and often degree holding, author has used the '-jutsu' spelling. This is also true of translated works and works written by people fluent in English and Japanese. The '-jitsu' probably originated as a corruption of the more correct spelling. I can see how some people may find it easier to use an 'i' sound rather than the 'u' sound.

    Cthulhu
     
  13. higuma

    higuma Guest

    Roughly translated... jutsu = art or skill jitsu = truth

    There are standards but they are not necessarily difinitive. The Japanese language is a bit undefined where romanization is concerned. The two kanji (jutsu and jitsu) are definitely not the same.
     
  14. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    I haven't seen the kanji for the Saito-ryu ninjitsu, so I don't know if they intended to use the 'truth' character.

    As for BJJ, I don't think I've ever seen that rendered in kanji.

    Cthulhu
     
  15. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    Yeah..that's pretty much it. 'jitsu' means "Truth"...which I shouldn't probably say, because every neo-ninja on the planet is going to say that their art means "Truth of Perserverance" :D

    Example - Kyo jitsu - interchanging truth and falsehood

    That said, jutsu means 'methods' or 'art of'.

    I remember reading at one point about Don Angier sensei and his videos on 'Hojojitsu' and 'Kenjitsu'. Something along the lines of it being the original romanization. I wish I had more information on that and could remember half-assed what was said...but I thought it was pretty interesting.
     
  16. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    I suspect that there is something to that. Look at:
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...0314/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/104-0730448-6126362
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0897501225/ref=pd_sr_ec_ir_b/104-0730448-6126362
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0804830274/ref=pd_sim_books/104-0730448-6126362

    The last is certainly by someone who appears to know Japanese and English. I suspect that -jitsu was one of the earliest transliterations, perhaps along with -jutsu.

    It's not clear to me that it's standardized yet; Amazon shows 19 hits for a search on jujitsu in Books and 8 hits for a search on jujutsu. There are also numerous hits for jiu-jitsu which I also think of as an older transliteration. No hits for bujitsu but 4 hits for bujutsu. Ninjitsu, 1 hit; ninjutsu, 48 hits.

    It looks like -jutsu is the preferred style everywhere except possibly in jujitsu/jujutsu. It isn't just the Brazialian forms-- the -jitsu style seems popular in jujitsu.
     
  17. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    Maybe it all comes down to simple personal preference then :) Unless the system is purposely trying to differentiate between the 'truth' or 'art' meaning, then I guess we can use whatever the heck we want :D

    Cthulhu
     
  18. gozanryu

    gozanryu Orange Belt

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    Hey Guys, just to try to clarify. The sword in question is NOT a Shinobi To. Firstly, it is not pointed (no kissaki) the tip is rounded. Why? Because it is double edged, from Hibaki all around edge of blade. Thus, it can cut in both directions. Thus, it is not a Nagimaki either
     
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  19. Tatsukin

    Tatsukin Guest

    Aloha,

    You seem to know quite a bit about the Tengu sword. Have you studied Saito Ninjitsu?
     
  20. RyuShiKan

    RyuShiKan Guest


    Just to add to that:

    Jitsu= actually, honestly, day (as in “honjitsu” meaning "this day”)

    Perhaps since Phelps “claims” to be fluent in Japanese he can shed some light on to the “Saito” meaning of the word since my Jap/Eng dictionary doesn’t give any martial meanings for it.
     

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