Shorinjin Saito-Ryu Ninjitsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Cthulhu, Sep 1, 2001.

  1. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    I do have a question here...

    Are there any examples of things like the special swords they use, etc... in any of the museums or open collections in japan?
     
  2. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Wow Steve! What a great example of hate and rudeness on your part! I say that you guys have shown no more proof than Frank Dux or Ronald Duncan, and instead of providing even the SLIGHTEST bit of proof outside of Mark Saito's word, you go on the attack. You attacked Me, you attacked Dave Lowry, you attacked Wayne Muromoto (again) and you attacked Karl Friday. It makes me feel good to be part of this international conspiracy against the Saito ryu.

    Let me deal with just one part of your hate-filled, but fact deficient, post.

    Here we go,

    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/sho...erpage=15&highlight=kevin millis&pagenumber=9

    I used the term "you" in this case to mean the defneders of mark Saito's claims. As you can see, Kevin Millis and Glen Morris are mentioned. Now we read your (in this case the singular) post saying that there were two Bujinkan practicioners (unamed) who visited and were rude. Hmmmm.

    And I am still waiting for some sort of facts from you. Facts that I can go and check for myself instead of trusting your word. You say someone invited Phelps to Japan. I want to hear that from himself. He is a registered member here. If it turns out that everyone other than he said he was invited and that turns out to be false, then he can simply say it was a mistake on your part and not deception. But if he makes the claim himself on this board, then he can't use that excuse. Again, he is a registered member who has posted and his silence on this matter woud indicate he might just want to give himself some defense when the story turns out to be a fabrication. Of course, he could just post the name and circumstances of his trip to Japan and set this to rest- but I am not going to place any heavy bets on him doing so for the reasons I just gave. :D

    Oh and Technopunk, no to your question. No physical evidence like that, no mention in a historical or other work and no back up for key parts of their story like Shaolin monks coming to Japan. :rolleyes:
     
  3. Karasu Tengu

    Karasu Tengu Guest

    Don I am so glad you can see so clearly into people. So when I defend myself or my position against you or anyone else , or I point it out when someone who is a "Professional "Writer" is venomous and has not done thier own research and then publishes statements that effect, or I point out that experts you have personally referenced who really don't don't lend that much credence to what you practice or Hatsumi claims then that is considered hate. Very well, so be it.

    FYI, here's Mr. Lowery's response.

    I see Wayne has graduated from High School Graphics Teacher, Martial Arts online magazine publisher and skilled Martial Artist to "authority". I take that to mean in every Japanese Martial Art since Mr. Lowery is "a professional writer whose livelihood depends on getting my facts straight and telling the truth".

    As for swords. I'm sure every weapon and artifact that ever existed in Japan is in its national musuem. Maybe "we" should send them one.

    As for you link to ebudo I believe this is the what you are refering to:
    I fail to see your point. As for the two BJK members whom I spoke of, they were probably in their early to mid 20's and had come down from either northern San Diego or Orange County I do not rightly recall. I also did say on another thread that I had worked out with three BJK members onboard my last ship. Two were EOD Team and one I have known for over 20 years.

    For future reference Don, If you want Phelps or Saito to respond to you, which they won't because who are you anyway, come see them for yourself. I'll lay odds that Hatsumi will not come to me if I demand it in the same manner you do. And for someone who professes to be so engulfed in the Japanese Culture you sure as hell do not display it. BTW did you ever get that Carbon Dating done on Hatsumi's Densho as I requested? Oh I'm sorry, that's the standard turn around attack.

    Everyone, all of this has been discussed on ebudo. Go there and do a search and read it all for yourselves. John Lindsey no longer allows the topic to be discussed on that board but it is in the archives. It is rather pointless to do it all over again.
     
  4. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Wow, more hatred!

    Andof course, Hatsumi is not registered here, but Phelps is. But for some reason, Phelps just can not take the responsibility of making his own statmenets, and thus there is some plausible deniability when mistakes are made. Like in his terrible Japanese translations. People keep saying he is fluent in the language, but he does not show any great ability in the language.

    And I would jus tlike to point out to people who do not know the facts, Wayne Muromoto offered to look over the research that supposably is going on by the Saito ryu. That was when the accusations that he was racist started. The Saito ryu likes to claim that no one who says they think the art is a creation of Mark Satio sr fromt he 80s has looked at their research. But they won't show that research to anyone and have attacked those that make the effort to offer.

    Again, Frank Dux and Ashida Kim have just as many red flags associated with their story and the same lack of proof for their claims. If the Saito ryu guys don't like it, then the best way to mand that would be to provide some sort of proof that does nto rely on their word and can be independently verified. Kind of what Koyama Ryutaro, Nawa Yumio and a few other guys in Japan did for the4 Togakure ryu.
     
  5. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    Per Admin request, please keep it civil you two
     
  6. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Ok Jay. I can keep it civil, but it has been my experience that when folks have nothing they can point to as facts and their arguments are shot down they tend to start trashing their detractors.

    To summerize so far...

    There is nothing that anyone can access for themselves to back up the claim that Mark Saito sr learned his art instead of creating it about 1980 or so. The Saito ryu talks about certain things as if they were facts, but can't show us where to look on our own.

    There is no documentation for this school in Japan.

    (Perhaps I should say that I can find no more documentation here than I can for Ashida Kim just to forestall the excuse of, "well did you ask EVERYONE in Japan about this?"

    There is no example of their secret weapon in Japan.
    (And the thing looks like a Pineapple knife from Hawaii.)

    There is no tales of Shaolin monks in Japan- which means that tales of them appearing in a legend like the Saito ryu one are as out of place as Mayan pyramids in historical legends of King Arthur.

    The Japanese used by the Saito ryu is said to have been passed down form a native speaker who taught Saito sr. Yet no one with proven Japanese ability says that their examples are anything other than bad jokes.

    No person who has lived in Japan, speaks the language, studies a martial art that can be found in Japan and/or has a reputation for knowing a lot about pre-modern Japanese arts has said they believe the Saito ryu was created in Japan.

    The people who match the above description (Karl Friday, Dave Lowry, Wayne Muromoto) who have made comments about the Saito ryu all said they believe it was created by the Hawaian Mark Saito sr and not taught to him as he claims. They have all been attacked and their charecter, professionism and competence have been called into question by the Saito ryu at every oppurtunity.

    The Saito ryu tried to quell comments from Bujinkan members by saying that Phelps was somehow invited, helped or had a meeting set up with Hatsumi by an influential American shihan. Yet Phelps himself refuses to give his account of the tale and no one in the Saito ryu seems able to even give the name of this person who supposably acted as a go- between for Hatsumi and Phelps.

    There we go. Not very flattering, but all true with as little emotional baggage as possible.
     
  7. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Let me see if I've got this argument summed up here:

    - The organizations spelling is wrong.

    - The back history can not be verified by outside sources.

    - Some of the terminology is also questionable based on established arts of similar nature.

    - This debate has been beated to death on other forums, and the links to those debates posted.

    - A couple of those involved here, have 'heat' from another board.


    Now, I've got some grumbling from a few folks due to what they perceive as a rehashed pissing match brewing. Personally, I don't see too much worth me worrying about in here at the moment, but if the tempers can't be kept in check, and no one has anything -new- to add to the arguments, then it's best to let this one die out. I think most points were made.

    :asian:
     
  8. Karasu Tengu

    Karasu Tengu Guest

    Kaith - you are right. Its a dead horse. The problem with "Terms" stems from two words that we have always said were incorrect and have explained why we choose not to change them.

    Yes Don, you are right, its not very flattering but at least its civil.

    As far as the people you mentioned being attacked by me and me alone as the case may be. I have never attacked Dr. Friday but merely pointed out the neither he nor anyone at Koryu.com has any interest in discussing Ninpo/Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu related topics. Just because I use his quotes and comments and those of the people he has intervied pointing out discrepancies with Hatsumi's claims, suddenly I am attacking you and the BJK personally. Dr. Friday stated that he did not research the Saito's art but that it did not look like ninjutsu he had seen (I assume he means BJK). To me that statement is truthful and I have never had a problem with it.

    I pointed out that Mr. Lowery, as a professional writer, and who may be considered an expert in many traditional Japanese martial arts is not an expert in Ninpo/Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu, did not do as he stated in his email that was forwarded to me. So my point was this, what does that say about his character? A writer is known by his words and a man by his actions as well, correct?

    As far as Wayne is concerned, perhaps since he is in Hawaii he should make his offer, if it is truly genuine, to the Saito's and not me. Mark Saito Jr. is working on the history and is planning a trip to Japan. This would be the proper course of action since, as you always so adamently and constantly point out, it is thier responsibility and not that of thier students to provide proof. And as I recall someone not involved in Saito Ryu also mentioned that a different statement from the same article could be construde as having racial overtones as well. So it wasn't just me.

    Kawika Sensei (Mr. Phelps) has already responded on this board and to emails. If he does not wish to respond to you over the internet that's his perogative. I for one am not going to tell him he must do this. Yes he does own a computer. So you mean in the 21st Century Hatsumi cannot purchase a computer and get on line to answer questions about his claims? He doesn't have to and chooses not to. Its beneith him. Hatsumi does not respond to rudeness so why should anyone else. I think you need to go back and re-read the Rules of the BJK and maybe counsel with Hatsumi as to your behavior. Being genuinly inquisitive is one thing. Questioning documentation and history is fine. Being accusational and repugnant is another.

    Jay. As with all the other threads on Saito Ryu I think this one is dead as well so I am done with it.
     
  9. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    This is putting it mildly. There is no evidence to support the personal training history of the still living Mark Saito sr. Just like Frank Dux or Ashida Kim, he makes claims of being taught something, but will not show even the slightest bit of proof that such training actually happened. Everyone I know can show proof of their training, why can't Mark Saito sr? So, if we treat the Saito ryu guys like we do Dux and Kim, they really have no complaint until they show that proof.

    And many aspects of their claims are actually contridicted by established facts. Couple this with the many, many problems that have cropped up with Saito sr (like his half second "duel" he forced on Don Angier)and his story and you see why we do not want to treat them as anything more than another Ashida Kim.

    It is not questionable Japanese, as one person (not a Bujinkan member) wrote, it is hysterically bad Japanese. Supposably passed down from a native speaker. Thus it is kind of doubtfull that Saito's story of being taught by his grandfather has any merit. Couple that with the lack of proof for that training and the rather silly history and you see why no one in Japan I know of give them any credit.
     
  10. Ninway J

    Ninway J Guest

    Being a practitioner of Saito Ninjitsu, I never really wondered about the history and lineage of the art as opposed to just concentrate on learning and practicing the art. I must say that everything said is very interesting. Sure, there is no evidence, but I don't think it discounts that Mark Saito Sr. was taught by his maternal grandfather. If not his grandfather, I think he was taught AT LEAST by someone.

    I find that Saito Ninjitsu is an effective and complex art encompassing over 120 dances and schemes. My sensei, Sam Ishigo, opened his school in the mid-1980s. Could the art really have been created by Mark Saito Sr. in 1980 or so, and have my sensei learn everything in California in time to open up a school in Hawaii? While my sensei was living in California a while back, he initially was learning Kung Fu, but quit when he found that Saito Ninjitsu taught ground-fighting and other things his Kung Fu sifu did not teach at the time. My point is that the art is too complex to just have been created by Mark Saito Sr.
     
  11. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    I have heard the same argument from other groups that have turned out to be complete frauds. In fact, there if very little in what anyone in the Saito ryu has said that I have not heard from the followers of frauds like Jack Stern, Honraku Hoshino, Ron Duncan, etc.

    Go over to e-budo and look up a guy named Richard Price. He used to practice "Fuma- ryu" and said it was a great, effective art. He said it was just too good and complex to have been made up by the guy calling himself Honraku Hoshino. I sparred with him on the boards for months before he got a chance to ask Hoshino about the things I said. The answers, or rather lack of them, caused him to leave the Fuma ryu and study another art. A few years later he now says that the Fuam ryu was a complete waste of time and dangerously stupid based on his new experiences.

    Richard Price is my one big success in advising people away from frauds. Most of the time, people have invested too much time in training and do not want to admit they were stupid enough to follow an incompetent con-man. Richard was the one guy who had reached instructor status but was not bound by his ego and made the break. Today he is much better than he ever could have been under the Fuma ryu guys.

    So, your arguments all sound like ones I have heard before from frauds and you can not show any sort of proof. Is it any wonder you are not treated as anything other than those you resemble?
     
  12. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    I don't know much about your art, other than what I have read on their website, but I would like to point out that many "complex arts" have been created by Individual people...

    Many very accomplished martial artists, as well as frauds. "Jeet Kun Do" was "created" by Bruce Lee. "Dux Ryu Ninjitsu" was "Created" by Frank Dux...

    Theoretically It is possible for Mr. Saito to have studied say, Judo, or Karate, or Aikido, or a combination of arts, and blended them and called it "Ninjitsu" (I am not saying he did this, I am just saying that its something that is possible for anyone to do)

    Someone who does this may be a very accomplished artist, who simply lies about the origin of their art to give it more credibility... (Agian, not referring specifically to Mr Saito, its a general statement of caution...)
     
  13. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Just in case anyone is led astray by your comment and related ones....

    Your comment would only be relevent if Dr Friday, Dave Lowry, Wayne Muromoto and everyone who 1) has lived in Japan, 2) has great experience in Japanese martial arts, 3) has demonstrated fluency in the language, etc, said that the Saito ryu was not a ninjutsu tradition. What they said was that the thing called the Saito ryu is not even a Japanese created art. You can not dispute the expertise of these people and others I have not mentioned are such that they KNOW what comes from Japan and what was created by someone like Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, etc. Quite simply put, when looking at the Saito ryu, all of these experts on what is Japanese and what was created outside of Japan, as well as every other person studying martial arts in Japan is that the art is not Japanese which would mean that the most likely explination is that Mark Saito sr made the art up rather than have been taught by a native Japanese as he claims but can not prove.

    I challenge anyone with the same expertise to provide a person with years of living and training in Japan with a similar level of expertise in the language, history, etc to say that the art taught by Mark Saito sr shows signs that it was created in Japan rather than being created by Mark Saito sr. The facts are that there is no proof that Saito learned it like he claims, there are several points that raise red flags and the Saito ryu claims that no one who decries its claims has seen the proof they hint at having while refusing to show that proof to anyone like Dave Lowry, Karl Friday, and Wayne Muromoto. Instead, such people are labled with claims of being "racist" and the like, which no one outside of the Saito ryu seems to agree with once they know the facts. Take a look at this thread and see how Steve Mcgovern was not willing to back up his accusations when facing the person he accused of beign a racist and no one other than the Saito ryu folks thought that Wayne Muramoto really made a racist comment.
     
  14. Seig

    Seig Grandmaster

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    Mr. Roley,
    I think you have made your point, several times in fact. Please discontinue the "Fraud Busting." I am not taking sides nor am I disputing anything any one has said. I am simply saying, you have made your point, it is time to stop.
    Seig
     
  15. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    No problem. I have stated my case. I will just sit by and relax until some point worth responding to is made, or my name is once again brought up in this thread.:wavey:
     
  16. Ihab

    Ihab Guest

    Hi
    My name is Ihab, I’m a student of Shorinjin-Ryu Saito Ninjitsu
    I study under Grandmaster Mark Saito Jr. “soke”
    I have been training sine April ’96, my rank is shodan

    I read a few of the messages about the art, and I would like to clarify a few points

    Shorinjin-Ryu Saito Ninjitsu is an art developed by the Saito Clan of Fukushima ken Japan. It is 100% Japanese, and is over one thousand years old. It is not a ninja art, that's why its spelled Ninjitsu.

    This art was passed down for many generations from grandfather to grandson

    In early 1900’s Hanschichi Saito moved to Hawaii with his wife, and daughter. Years after the daughter gave birth to Mark Saito, at age 4 he began his training with his grandfather
    He concluded his training at age 13

    April 4, 1966 Mr. Saito opened the first ever public school of Shorinjin-Ryu Saito Ninjitsu. Mr. Saito is an 8th degree Ninjitsu master

    He taught his 2 sons Mark Jr. and Maui Saito
    Only 3 students received the rank of Judan Sensei Mark Saito Jr, Sensei Maui Saito, and Sensei Shanon “Kawika” Phelps

    This is a very ancient martial art, and to this day it is taught the same way it was taught hundreds of years ago

    Saito Ninjitsu teaches the use of many weapons one of which is the Tengu sword It has a 13 inch double-sided blade, that is round, not pointed The sword is spun around the body, and is used for traditional cuts

    For more info about the art you can log on soke’s website
    www.spiritaloha.com
     
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  17. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Black Belt

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    And your evidence of all this is. . .what, exactly? Please read the rest of the thread before you respond so you'll know what has already been covered.

    (Haud ontae yer haggis, lads, here we gang again!!!)
     
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  18. Ihab

    Ihab Guest

    Sir

    There have been some evidence found in the past to substanciate this about the Saitos

    but i dont have anything in my hand to give you

    i have seen soke give many demonstrations
    i have never seen anybody do what he's done
    it was nothing short of amazing

    i'm not saying this of naievity
    i have met many great martial artists such as Toyoda Sensei, Ikeda Sensei and many others. they were all great,
    i have such profound respect for them

    i dont think i can change your mind, all i can say is
    if you've seen what i've seen soke perform, i think you would have a different view about this.

    i fully believe the saito story, to me it makes sense
     
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  19. Ihab

    Ihab Guest

    i would like to add to my previous message

    as i stated the saito art was passed down from grandfather to grandson. it was an oral tradition as well as physical training

    the in between generations never heard of their family art or had any idea of it

    hanschichi saito did not pass the art on to his son
    tsenamoru saito in fact he was asked about it much later in his life and he knew nothing of it. hanschichi did pass it on to his granson mark saito

    this is why there is not a recorded history of this art
     
  20. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    We get a lot of that, don't we guys? :rolleyes:

    I can say I have never seen anything that substantiates the claim by Mark Saito that he learned a martial art from his grandfather. All we basically have to rely on is Mark Saito's word. I know guys who train with Ashida Kim who says it is the best art in the world, so people on the internet claiming that an art is too good to have been made up is just not convincing to me anymore. There is always someone willing to say the art is fantastic no matter how bad it is.
     

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