Shorinjin Saito-Ryu Ninjitsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Cthulhu, Sep 1, 2001.

  1. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Excuse me, still waiting on the name of the person who supposably invited Phelps. You say it happened and that Hatsumi and Phelps had a discussion, it is up to you to prove it. So far, nothing. I have no reason to aks, sicne I trust my friend more than you and the burdon of proof is on you. Actually, Phelps is not saying that he was invited, so how can you say it happened? Let us see hm give his version of events and the name.


    Jesus, are you seriously suggesting I knock on every door in an entire prefecture and ask people if they know anything about a cheesy ninja group?

    And I have asked for something in Japan that I can go and look for myself, but you can't give it to me. But you expect me to run all over an entire prefecture to try to find somethign that is YOUR responsibility to back up.

    The name is Angier, and if you will not beleive the drubbing he gave Saito happened just because he says so and it was witnessed by others, then why should we believe you when you say that "XXX can verify that the Saitos were training as children, hmmm?

    So there is no mention of fishing AT ALL in records in Japan. Because there is no mention at all of the Saito ryu or its story in any record in Japan. My friends here can tellyouu what their relatives were doing five generations back in some cases. You can't provide proof for anything prior to rock music like Frank Dux and Ashida Kim.

    Oh man, and a person whose grandmother is Japanese is an expert on what is and is not a Japanese martial art? Most Japanese today know no more about what is a pre-meiji era martial art than the typical American can tell you the difference between Apache and Cherokee face paint.

    You are really getting desperate.
     
  2. Ninway J

    Ninway J Guest

    Don, or anyone else that knows Japanese language,

    I have a language question. I've taken japanese language for 2 1/2 years. Don, I know you say you live in Japan, so you probably know more than me. Wouldn't it be possible for shorinjin to mean "shaolin person", since nihonjin means "japanese person" and amerikajin means "american person?" Or is the "-jin" only used properly in the context of country names?

    Also, I was taught, by my sensei, that ninjitsu means "the study of man." I already know about the discrepancies regarding "-jitsu" and "-jutsu." However, it makes sense to me. But is this incorrect? Or would it depend on which kanji were used?
     
  3. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    It is really complicated. So why don't you ask your teacher (native speaker I assume) why not. Be prepared for some mirth on their part when you try to use the phrase. All the native speakers I have shared this with (junior high school teachers for the most part) almost fall out of their seats in laughter is is sooooo bad. Essentially it runs down to the fact that peasents that can not read would not be using the onyomi. That is one reason, but not the only one. It is not a matter of dialect or anything else anymore than "more gooder" is in English.

    How in heck are we supposed to believe this explination when Phelps runs around with a belt that uses the same kanji as the arts that call themselves 'ninjutsu' in Japan. Mark Saito sr can not read or write Japanese by his own admision so we can count this out as a desperate attempt to cover up a mistake. You would have to make one heck of a stretch to believe this definition. Strange that it would so closely mirror the term used in the west to refer to ninja without having any relation to theterms they use.
     
  4. Ninway J

    Ninway J Guest

    I'd love to ask my teachers (both native speakers), but it's been years since I've seen them. I'll try asking someone else, and I'll try to post here with the results.

    Yeah, I cannot really say why Kawika sensei would use that kanji, that is, if it is incorrect. If "ninjitsu" does mean "the study of man", then it would seem to be incorrect, because there isn't the kanji for "man" or "person" in there.

    From what I know about the ninja arts, I can truthfully say that our art is not the art of ninja, except for probably some taijutsu. Our art is more like "japanese kung fu"...at least how my sensei taught it.

    A few years before Kawika sensei wrote his article, my instructor, Ishigo sensei, did say that nobody knew the kanji used for "ninjitsu"...not even the Saitos. So I'd probably go as far to say that the kanji wasn't "known" until around the time Kawika sensei wrote his article.

    I'm not putting Kawika sensei down. I just want to make a point that not everyone in Saito ninjitsu was in accord over certain issues about the art at that time, or even nowdays.
     
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  5. rutherford

    rutherford Master Black Belt

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    Lets have a moment of silence for this thread too. There was no reason to bring it up a year after the last post.
     
  6. Ka'alako

    Ka'alako Guest

    If you don't think Uncle Davids' passing was a good enough reason, I pity you.
     
  7. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    Ka'alako,

    I think that a thread about his Passing in the Hall of Rememberance would be a better place for it. Would you like me to move this there?

    Or Perhaps you could post about him in there, a brief note about who he was...
     
  8. Ka'alako

    Ka'alako Guest

    That would be great. Thank you for the offer.
     
  9. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    I split the initial Post about his passing into the Hall of Rememberance.

    I did see afterwords that Mr. Bishop also posted about that In there.

    :asian:
     
  10. Shinkengata

    Shinkengata Green Belt

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    I'm another Don Roley Success story. :ultracool
     
  11. Shannon Phelps Validity and the arts validity is proven by Uncle David Nueva. However due to his passing you can ask his family of Shannon Phelps Validity.
    Also hatsumi sensei refers to Shannon as kawika phelps
     
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  12. Kizaru

    Kizaru Purple Belt

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    Okay. Can it be proven by "Saito Ninjitsu Kid"?

    I am sorry to hear of his passing.

    That's a difficult fact to argue with. Tell you what. If you send me an address (prefecture, city, block and street number must be included), or better yet, a phone number of someone here in Japan who can verify the validity of Saito ryu Ninjutsu, I'll confirm it myself. If the ryu is too secret to post that information on the net, you can send it to me by private message (PM). If the ryu is too secret to give out that information at all, then I question the validity of the ryu itself (how would a non Japanese find their way into such a group? Why would someone from such a group admit the group existed on the internet? Why would someone from such a secret group violate their code of secrecy and come out on the internet admiting that not only the group exists, but that they are also part of it?)

    I look forward to your response.
     
  13. [​IMG]

    i believe this is a picture os Phelps and Hatsumi
     
  14. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Black Belt

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    Which is supposed to prove what?

    Thousands of people have gotten their pictures taken with Hatsumi sensei over the years. Out of most of those photos, he would have no idea who the individuals were if you showed them to him.
     
  15. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    :roflmao:

    You have learned well, my young apprentice. Soon we will initiate our plan and bring down the republic. :duel:

    Seriously, Kizaru is hitting the nail right on the head.

    And to add to what Dale said, not only is a photo of Hatsumi and Phelps not any sort of proof, but the idea that someone would try to use it as such hightens the impression that the group is not honest about what they do.
     
  16. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    Which is the reason there is only one picture of me and Hatsumi sensei, in which I'm standing with my arms crossed...:ninja:
     
  17. redmongoose

    redmongoose White Belt

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    hey I would really appreciate it if you would get in touch with me about Shorinjin-ryu ninjutsu. I would really like to know what you know, I actually have been trying to gather as much info about this as I can, and I think you would be a great start.
     
  18. eyebeams

    eyebeams Purple Belt

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    What? On IAIDO-L archives, Karl Friday passed on a frank admission from Saito Sr. that the Ninj*tsu element was an invention. Friday's theories about the technical origins of it are pretty sound. As for Phelps, his CMA and military backgrounds are legitimate.
     
  19. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Oh? I am not a member so this is news to me. So he said that the story of him being taught by some mysterious member of the family in the ancient art of Saito ryu was a lie?

    Do you still have the passage and can you post it here?
     
  20. eyebeams

    eyebeams Purple Belt

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    http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0004&L=iaido-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=17829

    "
    I met Mark Saito about 15 years ago, when I was a grad student in
    California. He's a very impressive guy and a clearly talented martial
    artist. At the time, he told me that he used the name "ninjitsu" only as a
    kind of marketing tool (this was the height of the Stephen Hayes-led ninja
    boom), but that the art he taught had nothing to do with ninja; it was just
    a defensive art for Japanese peasants. This is somewhat different from
    what the web page now claims."
     

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