Shorinjin Saito-Ryu Ninjitsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Cthulhu, Sep 1, 2001.

  1. Tatsukin

    Tatsukin Guest

    Well, Don, I am not quite sure how to answer some of your questions. It seems to me that you would like to read about “the incredible Saito ninjas of Fukushima” somewhere. I will tell you; so would I. I don’t struggle with our history like you do though. I would love to go to Japan and find the village where it all started and see if there are any folks still practicing the art. I am quite sure, however, that it would not be called Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu, for a few reasons.

    Imagine if you will, a man named Bob Jones. Bob has a son named Bobby. Bob is a blacksmith, best in the land; dare I say… a master. Now one day when little Bobby is about 4 years old Bob decides it is time his son learned the Family Art. What do you suppose he told his son… “Come here Bobby. It’s time you learned Angelic Style Jones Blacksmithing, our family art. Probably not. I believe it would be a bit more like, “Come here Bobby. It’s time you learned the family art.” Don’t you? And so on like that until one day, one of the Jones’ decided to teach their style of Blacksmithing outside of the family.

    It seems to me there are certain things without which you will choose to say our art is not authentic:

    1. A dojo in Japan – there isn’t one. The first dojo was opened in 1966 in California.
    2. A written record of who taught whom in the Saito clan, going back to the village in Fukushima – there isn’t one. If there were I would know about it, and you and/or Mr. Muromoto would certainly have discovered it by now.
    3. Consistency in “the story” – this is oral tradition. Different people hear the story of our history in different ways and within different contexts. They then interprate and tell that history to others, in keeping with there own purposes and agenda. There is a fundamental flaw in oral history – any historian will tell you that. However, there is also a profound beauty in it – any mythologist will tell you that.
    4. Wayne Muromoto’s stamp of approval. – I’m sorry; I don’t even know how to respond to this one.

    I think before we go too much further we need to get clear as to what it is you are challenging, the authenticity of the martial art we practice/teach or the legend as penned by Shannon Phelps. Let us say, for the sake of argument that “the art was made up by Saito”. So what? How would that change anything?


    Aloha,
    Chris
     
  2. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    I just recalled something. Tatsukin, you gave a history of the Saito family and how they taught Mark Saito sr the art. But if you look at the article on their history of the art you find this,

    Note the word maternal. So it seems unusual that the people who taught Mark Saito sr the art have the name "Saito." People rarely marry people with their last name, and if my maternal grandfather trained me in something, I know that I would not be calling it the Roley family tradition.

    I know that oral tradition tends to get garbled in the passing, but this is something that happened to Mark Saito sr and he is still alive to ask questions of.

    It is this type of thing, combined with just an absolute lack of proof, that makes me look askance at this art.
     
  3. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Master of Arts

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    Well, family oral tradition aside, and claims to a tengu-taught art notwithstanding, what are the kanji used to write the transliterated "ninjitsu?"

    With the primary instructor being allegedly fluent in Japanese and Chinese (the same characters are used in both languages in the exact same style), this should be a simple matter to clear up...

    If it isn't "ninjutsu," but is really "ninjitsu," then the final kanji will be different. If they are not different, then what is it if not the art of the ninja? I know the Bujinkan folks have, in recent years, adopted the whole "we are spiritually oriented, in-th-now living actualized humans" schtick as opposed to the secret, black-garbed killers of the early '80s. Good for them. But they still toss a nod toward their Togakure-ryu roots now and again...

    Saying that what they study is "ninjutsu," but they are not ninja is like saying they study karate but are not karateka, or that they study an art that is called jujutsu, but doesn't do any grappling...

    I wait, but I don't hold my breath...

    Gambarimasu.
    :asian:
     
  4. heretic888

    heretic888 Senior Master

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    Yeah, and there was a reason for that. If people associate Ninpo with the black-clad assassins they see on TV or in the movies, then that tends to attract certain kind of people you may not necessarily want to be involved in your art.

    I believe Hatsumi-soke also said that many people in the Bujinkan had become 'stuck' with the image of the ninja, and that was one of the reasons for the name change. Also, only four ryuha within the Bujinkan actually teach ninjutsu per se (if by 'ninjutsu' we are referring martial arts ryuha that focus on the so-called arts of 'stealing-in'). Then again, most of the other ryuha are historically 'ninja ryu' (even though they may not strictly be 'ninjutsu'), so.....

    Most of the ryuha within the Bujinkan have 'ninja roots'. Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu, Shinden Fudo-ryu Dakentaijutsu, Kukishinden-ryu Happo Hikenjutsu, and Gyokko-ryu Shitojutsu (which later became Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu and Koto-ryu Koppojutsu) all come from Hakuun-ryu Ninjutsu in varying degrees. Gikan-ryu Koppojutsu and Gyokushin-ryu Ninjutsu come from Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu, as well. Most (if not all) of these ryuha were historically part of the martial collective now called Iga-ryu Ninjutsu (and many of the 'founders' and soke of these schools were Iga-ryu jonin, or students of Iga-ryu jonin).


    I believe I once heard someone reffered to the Bujinkan students not as ninja but as ninjutsuka. I thought that was pretty good.....
    ;)

    I think the difference is what a 'ninja' is is still open for debate. Is a ninja simply one that studies Ninpo?? Is a ninja a member of some Japanese intelligence network in fuedal Japan, and thus no longer exist?? Or.... is a ninja something else??

    I shall quote Hatsumi-soke:

    "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people
    and to learn to endure in whatever social
    condition one is in; to know and accept one's
    fate, and to live for human beings and all other
    creatures. The person who masters all of these
    is a ninja."

    'Nuff said.
     
  5. gozanryu

    gozanryu Orange Belt

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  6. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Master of Arts

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    The kanji are on the pages listed by Ken above...

    The correct Romaji spelling to reflect the Japanese pronunciation is "ninjutsu."

    Interesting note... I was visiting with a friend of mine from Japan this past weekend, and we cracked open his electronic pocket dictionary to figure out what the answer to this ongoing question is. Interestingly, the "jutsu" character is often mispronounced by native Japanese speakers (at least in his experience - he is a 26 year old kendo nidan, so he isn't ignorant about martial arts), which may have led to the original misspelling...

    Whatever. He and his girlfriend (also a native speaker who works in an English language tutoring school - we met them both when we were living in Japan, and they were visiting Seattle two weekends ago, and Canada last weekend) both agreed that the correct Romaji is "jutsu," not "jitsu."

    Argument seems to be resolved regarding what is proper. Now, if Mr. Saito continues to use it in an incorrect spelling, at least he can just say that he continues to use it, though he is aware it is incorrect, because it was "traditionally" handed down to him misspelled...

    His argument about the alternate interpretation of the term "ninjitsu," however, is completely in error... Wrong character to interpret in that context.

    Gambarimasu.
    :asian:
     
  7. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    Dang. I have a long way to go.
     
  8. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    As for Saito Ryu, I have no real idea of the history but there are 2 practitioners of it on my own forum. They are pretty knowledgable of what they know.
    All possible fraud aside, they seem to have a pretty good grip of what it is they do. Which is a damn site more than I see from some of the larger orgs.
    Pretty nice guys too.
     
  9. gozanryu

    gozanryu Orange Belt

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    Dave, we ARE NOT nice guys! We are purveyors of a sham! We dont know what were talking about. Are opinions are not valid. Everyone knows more than us about our art. We will be absorbed!:cool:

    But thanks....
     
  10. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    cheeky!

    go to http://unv.aimoo.com

    they are there, in the protected forums. You will need to make a test post first for me to change access.
     
  11. Tatsukin

    Tatsukin Guest

    Don, Matt,

    I came to the forum carrying an olive branch. Sincerely willing to share my knowledge of the system. If you would like to know what I know, which is quite a bit, you will have to stop taking semantic pot shots at what I share with you; or I will be encouraged to talk with you no longer. I would like to clear something up here. I asked you before, who are you attacking? Shannon Phelps? Mark Saito, Sr.? Saito Ninjitsu? The Japanese for writing in squiggly lines which can be misinterpreted/pronounced by non-native speakers? The non-native speakers for misinterpreting/pronouncing the squiggly lines? Me, for having the gall to speak up without having uncovered the coveted book: History and Tradition of the Saito Ninja of Fukushima? I have zero need to argue/fight with you. If you have questions, I am here. I love this stuff. I find all of it fascinating, and will do my best to answer any sincere question. I will poke my head in every once in a while to see. But an intellectual discussion this in not… yet.

    Ball’s in your court kids.

    Peace, Love & Aloha,
    Chris
     
  12. gozanryu

    gozanryu Orange Belt

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    Chris, If I may go out on a limb here. The argument is that "they" are not attacking at all. "They" are just requesting that the system justify itself. Of course, "they" are not particularly polite about it. If you re-read the posts, and visit other threads on other boards on this subject, you will see some pervasive (if illogical) lines of reasoning. I do not think you can make much headway here.
    Here are some reminders:

    "The sword that Saito ryu calls "The Tengu Sword" *chuckle* is from the Togakure ryu. "

    an expert opinion on something that the speaker knows nothing about. When the truth is stated:

    "The sword in question is NOT a Shinobi To. Firstly, it is not pointed (no kissaki) the tip is rounded. Why? Because it is double edged, from Hibaki all around edge of blade. Thus, it can cut in both directions. Thus, it is not a Nagimaki either"

    no response, no " Oh, I didnt know that" why?

    My point is this: You are wasting your time on this subject. Any facts that come to light or discrepencies in the argument are ignored or glossed over. Its almost like the facts are really whats wanted, whats really wanted is to discredit and prove the art a fake. Re -read the threads here, and over at e-budo. No matter how much posturing that is done, the true "nature" of the argument is apparent.
     
  13. heretic888

    heretic888 Senior Master

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    Heh. Comedy.
     
  14. Ninway J

    Ninway J Guest

    Here's a pamphlet that my sensei wrote and printed out for a martial arts exhibition back in 1997 in Hilo, Hawaii. Many copies were handed out publicly at the exhibition. Ishigo Sensei retired from teaching in 1998, so Ninway Ninjitsu Academy is currently closed. Although Shannon K. Phelps and Sam Ishigo did train together under Mark Saito Sr., there are some slight differences between their teachings. Any questions? Feel free to ask.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    NINWAY NINJITSU ACADEMY

    NINWAY NINJITSU ACADEMY offers a 2,000 year old mystical and magical martial art system encompassing 40 different martial arts. It's knowledge has been handed down through generations. NINJITSU is the art of Man and not the art of the Ninja (Ninjutsu). It is the art of enlightenment and not the art of destruction. It makes the impossible possible. To be a Ninjitsu master, a lifelong student of Man, one must not only be able to dismantle (physically and psychologically) a human, but also be able to reassemble the human both in body, and spirit. Consequently, graduates of Ninjitsu are found in the medical, healing, teaching, computer, engineering, etc. sciences.

    SHORINJIN (SHAOLIN)
    There are two levels of instruction. The Shorinjin (Shaolin) Level deals with the physical instruction. A student here learns about his physical body, it's capabilities and incapabilities, against another human being. Through the art of Fushido (the mat work), the ground becomes his ally and not his enemy. His training literally begins from the ground up. Through basic stances, he learns to be grounded and draw power from the earth. He learns to roll forward, backward, and side-wards to get out of danger or to protect himself. He also learns how to break his fall should he be thrown or his legs cut out from under him. Through his practice in ancient ritual dances and it's derived training in karate/kung fu kicks and punches, he then learns to use his fists, feet, elbows, knees, arms, legs and fingers in defending himself against any conceivable attack situation. By mastering Kiai-jitsu (spirit shout), he can stop time, freeze, or move people. With the use of Shinkeido (nerve shattering), he can momentarily freeze his opponent allowing him to apply a restraining hold or a disabling technique. Using jiu-jitsu and aiki-jujitsu techniques, he learns to throw his opponents, grapple and restrain them using a finger, a wrist, and arm, a leg, and choke holds. He also masters the countermoves to the above techniques. Through his intense knowledge of the human mechanism, he is able to dislocate parts of the human body. However, by the same token, he learns to relocate any dislocated parts. By mastering the most ancient and ritualistic “The Dances of the Gods”, the student learns to defend himself against multiple attackers. Less becomes more. Swiftness of movement overcomes brute force. Once he masters the respective schemes (techniques) of the Shorinjin, Jujitsu, Aiki-jujitsu, Pa Sai, Shinkeido, and Self Defense arts, the student is so well trained, his defense, at his option, becomes a blur of movement. Magically, it seems, his opponent is down or incapacitated. How the attacker is defeated is irrelevant. That the attacker is down and out is of the only importance. Like the principles in Zen, he is trained to react according to what is presented to him. His reaction is instinctive and immediate. No reflection is necessary. As he progresses, if deemed worthy, the student is then taught the art of weaponry. He first learns the art of the Yawara, a six inch by 1 inch diameter dowel. It’s principles can be practiced with the use of a yawara, a pen, or a quarter. The next weapon is that of the Tengu sword. It is a spinning, double-edged, double-sword-fighting art. According to ancient Japanese mythology, the Tengu, a half-bird/half-man creature that dwelled in the forests of Japan occasionally would teach mortals such as Yoshimitsu, a great warrior in old Japan, Miyamoto Musashi, the greatest swordsman in Japan, and Uyeshiba, the founder of modern Aikido, some of its sword-fighting secrets. Through ancient ritual dances, and the aid of the instructor, the student learns to unlock the secrets of the Tengu double-sword-fighting techniques. Another weapon is that of the Bo, the long staff, whose length is determined by the height of its wielder. Here again ritual dances play a major part in mastering this weapon. Other weapons mastered are the Tonfa, Nunchaku, the Sai, the Handkerchief, and the Coin. It is said that a graduate of the Shorinjin Ninjitsu level can have a black belt in any of forty martial arts within 6 months. This has been proven many times.


    NINJITSU MASTER
    Once all the principles and techniques of open-hand and weapons are mastered, the student then enters the NINJITSU MASTER training. He learns more about the human body, its strong points, its weak points. Points of the human body to sedate, notify, stun, resuscitate. He learns to rehabilitate injuries and heal the sick. He is able to recognize and increase his aura and that of other people. He looks beyond the surface of man to seek the truth of their intentions. To develop further, he must hear without listening. He must see without his eyes. He must sense before he touches. He must smell without the use of his nose. He must taste without the use of his tongue. Only then will he be capable of developing his sixth sense. Then he must learn to communicate without speaking - Telepathically. Thus, he would then be ready to enter the fourth dimension and let Time work to his advantage. He uses the innate power of Man to effect changes in his fellow man through love. But above all, the NINJITSU MASTER is a student of Man. He is grounded to earth, governed by a Higher Power, and a free-flowing spirit of ever-increasing knowledge.


    Sam I. Ishigo
    Founder
    NINWAY NINJITSU ACADEMY
    P.O. Box 8
    Honomu, HI 96728
    Tel: 808-963-6128
    Fax: 808-963-6750
     
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  15. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    That was horribly painful to read.
     
  16. Karasu Tengu

    Karasu Tengu Guest

    Yea Jay I almost agree. Just like reading your Traditional Russian MA website. I like the part about after the Communist Takeover how these arts faded into obscurity do to the oppression and pain of imprisonment for those who passed on this secret impromtu knowledge. So your saying it was practiced in secret under one of the most paranoid and watchful government's in history and no one knew about it? I'm sure you have all the documentation as to the Russian lineages. You know, who taught who from the begining. And to paraphrase the shoe pounding Nikita - didn't they discover it first, the martial arts that is. :shrug:

    New Line

    I will say this. I believe Mr. Ishigo only obtained 5th or 6th dan. Tatsukin might know more about that though since he is in Hawaii.

    Also, since Saito Sr. first taught his family's NinjItsu in 1966 isn't that well before the American Ninja Boom of the early to mid 1970's? Yet he does not lay claim to starting said boom. So what's his motivation?

    I also know that Mr. Muramoto did not go to the Saito's to ask about thier art but instead sought out a former practioner who may or may not have gained BB ranking and addmitted that he had not practiced the art in many years and was not 100% in his recolection. He was teaching some form of karate or other MA. Why did Mr. Muromoto do that? He writes descent commontary but is hardly an authority on Ninpo (ninja arts) or a certified Japanese Historian (at least according to his Bio on Koryu.com).

    Dr. Karl Friday also admitted that he never took the time to research the Saito Art. He also stated on Koryu.com that "they", Koryu.com and their associated historians, do not research Ninjutsu and could really care less about it since it is not Koryu bujutsu. He even went as far as to point out the "questionable aspects" of Hatsumis claims.

    Many of you comment on pictures from the TFAM website and about the Tengu-to and its effectiveness. I'm glad so many of you all knowing masters can tell from a few pictures the total effectiveness of an art's techniques and its entire philosophy. So far to date only three people from the BJK have visited the school. Two were extremely rude even though they were shown common courtiousy. They pased up and down the viewing area as if they wanted to get on the mat and go for it. The only civil BJK member to visit the school is Dan Wiedeman (6th dan I believe). He asked some good questions and was very open and upfront. The most he has said is that it is not BJK. I think a lot of Don Roley's distain stems from him feeling slighted when Phelps Sensei was invited to Japan by a Ranked American Student ( a female Lawyer from the Mid West I believe) of Hatsumi's to visit with him for I believe a week or two and no one coordinated it throught Don.

    I understand that Mark Saito Jr. is planning a trip to Fukushima, Japan with his Japanese wife who is fluent in the language to do family/historical research on the art.

    I think everyone needs to just go train in your own art and stop worrying about what others are doing. If it really bugs you that much go kick thier *** or sue them for fraud. :rolleyes:

    Steve McGovern
    Saito NinjItsu
     
  17. Karasu Tengu

    Karasu Tengu Guest

    BJK Club

    Looks like there need to be some regulation within thier own org.
     
  18. Jay Bell

    Jay Bell Master Black Belt

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    If you would do some reading there, chief, you'd see that those old lines of Russian arts are still very much in existance today. As far as documentation, Russian arts don't document lineages in the same way that Japan does. Nice try...but apples and oranges only have the similarities of being fruit.

    **Another note. Sokoli Stalina were practitioners of what is today Russian Martial Art, as were the KGB. Today, it is the training for Spetsnaz GRU, MVD units.

    As I said before...painful to read.
     
  19. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    One sign of someone on the ropes who can't prove his dubious claims is he attacks the guys who doubt those claims. It is a sign of desperation. Instead of providing proof of those claims, they try to put the doubters on the defensive. That is what we see above. Of course, Steve McGovern also gained some noteriety for his conduct as documented by Dave Lowry in this article,

    http://www.e-budo.com/html/snobb.htm

    In case you can't tell, Wayne Muromoto was the guy who was accused of "anti-Polinisian" snobbery and Steve was the guy who did it. It would be nice if instead of attacking others, people like Steve could show the slightest bit of proof to the claims of Mark Saito sr.

    Last Saturday I worked out with two guys who trained in Systema. One of them had even been to Russia and trained with a guy named Mikail (sp) and others. So we know that the Russian martial art Systema esists in Russia. Can the Saito ryu provide the slightest bit of proof (outside of the word of Mark Saito sr of course) that Saito ryu existed prior to Mark Saito sr in the 80s and in Japan? So far, I have not seen any proof. The folks in it all say that it exists, but they can't point me to anything I can access on my own to back up their claims. No newspaper knew they existed, no source outside of their dojo was aware they existed. Just like Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan, etc.

    Proof please. Ron Duncan claims to have been teaching ninjutsu since the 60s, yet no one outside of his inner circle claims to have been aware of it. Talking like it existed does not make it true.

    Let me guess, you can not point me to anything outside of a trip to San Diego and your teacher, right?

    Oh, did I say that I knew it's entire philosophy? What I say, and will repeat again, is that the things that Phelps does in it shows a complete lack of knowledge about swords and no one I know in Japan would do the things he does witha sword. Want an example? In one technique he is not in danger of being cut, but leaves his sword so that it's edge is hit by the attackers sword edge. No one I know who does any type of sword work would do that kind of thing. In my view, it shows a complete lack of skill in sword work. Coupl this with the way Mark Saito sr was shown up by Don Angier and you can ssafely say that the Saito guys have shown no skill with a sword.

    Congratulation. I had stopped posting since Russ left, but the above mention of my name brought me back. Deal with me.

    What I want to know, is why you are now changing your story. Before, you were claiming Hatsumi invited Phelps thorugh an American Shihan. Now you are saying that she did it on her own. Damn, you are trying to cover you tail pretty damn hard.

    And you also used to mention that Kevin Millis and one other (name temporarily forgotten) trained with you and said the art was similar to the Bujinkan. Now you are saying that only three people have visited your school and two were rude and only Weidman commented (negativly) on its similarity to BBT.

    How about you get Phelps (who speaks English, has a computer and is registered here UNLIKE HATSUMI (so don't try to use that dodge)) to give the name of this person who invited him? I want to know if she initiated the trip, or if Phelps did. And I want Phelps to say her name so that when the person I think it is (Regina Brice) says she was contacted first you guys can't say it was just a mistake.

    And if you can't get the name of this person, then we can treat your story like we do Frank Dux's story about his teacher Tanaka- also without any proof to back it up.

    To sum up this thread. The Saito ryu claims it is a Japanese art with a thousand year old history. Yet they can not show one bit of proof in Japan that the art esisted there. (Oh yeah- Mark Saito is Asian so he must have been taught ninjutsu like he claims :shrug: )

    They also can show no proof that Mark Saito recived the training he claims or that the art existed prior to him.

    The Japanese terms they say was passed on by Native speakers is so bad it is funny. The history they claim makes Japanese laugh (Shaolin monks training ninja in secret- :rolleyes: ) and the stuff they do has little relation to what is seen in Japan.

    In short, Frank Dux may find them good company, but few others should.
     
  20. Karasu Tengu

    Karasu Tengu Guest

    Don, put up the post where I said Hatsumi invited Phelps. You can't becuase it doesn't exist. I have always stated that Phelps was invited by a BJK Member. Therefore you are again talking through your hat.

    Oh and I did read Lowery's article after someone emailed me a discussion he had with him. Seems Mr. Lowery is ripe for getting his info secondhand and not checking things out for himself as well. He went off Wayne Muramoto's information. As it was Lowery didn't even get THAT right. I guess that's what can be expected from a "Professional Writer". I did not accuse Wayne of being"anti-Polinisian" I said the statement he used about "Cheese smelling foriengers" was a racist. Since Wayne stood by his statement that would make him racist in that respect. So why didn't the reknowned Mr. Lowery just print my name as the accuser in his article? Why did he not name the Saito's as frauds? Because he wouldn't want to be suied for liable that's why.

    Who's Kevin Mills and please put up the post where I said this. Another non-existant Don Factiod. I do know a David Mills.

    You seem to have this big deal about who learned from who. Saito learned his art from his Grandfather. Maternal or paternail why does that make a difference? He was also taught by his mother as well. Oh but I guess historically women were never taught the arts. And your point about same-named people marrying. Were not the Lower Classes in Japan authorized Sir Names only after the Meji Restoration? That would mean that even thought two people might have the same last name they were not necessarily blood related. If Wayne Muramoto or Dave Lowery really wanted to investigate the art, there are plenty of people around who studied with Saito Sr. in the early years who are qualified to talk about it still around who can verify this fact. Professor Kaito (David Nuuiwa, sp) who has NEVER stuided Saito Ryu and has been around a long time in the MA community has known Saito Sr. since he was a kid and knows of his Grandfather as well. He's not in "The Circle" Why didn't they ask him? He teaches Phelps the Lua art and that has nothing to do with Phelps's involvement in Saito Ryu.

    Actually Don you no absolutly nothing about the Saito art. You've never seen it and never investigated it other than reading the TFAM Website. You merely comment on its lack of Koryu type documentation. Since they were not of the Samurai Class but the Farmer Class I can see no reason, historically from the Japanese perspective and I do have you to thank for starting my studies in this area, why they would do so. As far as the sword technique you looked at, that's because they don't use this sword or understand the reasoning behind it. That's good. The sword is not our soul. Its a piece of metal stuck in wood. If it is damaged, broken, whatever it doesn't matter, we make another one.

    As far as pointing you in directions. You're in Japan and close to Fukushima go search it out for yourself if you are really interessted. No matter what I present to you, Phill or anybody else you will not take it at face value anyway so you might as well go look around for yourself. Put you money where your mouth is or wait until Mark Saito Jr. publishes his findings.

    Rigina Brice. I'm not sure of the name. The all old email was dumped when the old server went down and a new server was established. Yeah pretty convienent huh. However I did mention this awhile ago. But if this is who you think it was why don't you just ask her?

    As far as using terms. Its Baseball not Basabaru (phonetic), an American word. The Japanese don't even spell it the same or even make the attempt to pronounce it correctly so by your reasoning the Japanese are not playing Real Authentic American Baseball merely an imitation.

    Hey why don't you give Hatsumi a computer and register him here. Better yet, translate for him.
    :rolleyes:

    Jay, Yes I know that we westerners do not document things like the Japanese. I was merely making a point. Just because something is not public knowledge doesn't mean it did not, doesnot or could not exist (have existed). I believe Don had stated on another board, and I'm paraphrasing here, that the tradition and practice of purely oral transmission of information did not exist in Japan.
     

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