Self Training...

[Knarfan]

I'm reading Rey Galang's new Masters of the Blade book and am surprised how many groups insist on extensive live knife training. Yikes!

Most groups including the group I'm involved in believe in live blade training . Speaking for my group , most of the live blade partner training is done by the highest ranked people in the system & they take safty precautions . Of course solo live blade training is more common throughout the group test cutting, drawing, projectile training. Sayoc kali is a feeder based system so I'm not sure how you would do much partner training with live blades (I'v done a minimal amount), it does have alot of benifits, but, you have to have a tremendous amount of trust in your training partner . The best & safest ways so far that I'v seen to do partner training with a live blade is to have a very highly skilled feeder either feeding a highly skilled reciever some controlled familar drills or a very controlled free flow feed , just hard enough so that the reciever feels a little uncomfortable . I think that these types of drills are very benificial but, both parties have to obviously be very skilled . There are a handfull of people who I train with who I would trust to feed me a live blade . It would be a tuff thing to self teach , it takes alot of skill & control .

 

[Ronin Wolf-master]

Well i will admit that when i was first getting into swords me and my friend went blade to blade with some wallahngers. yes i know, very,very,very,very,very,very,very BAD idea :whip:

but we both trusted each other enough, and we NEVER got hit but each other,well execept that one time he was using hollow metal antenas and hit me right above the eye with them, it was quite funney once the pain wore off, we both laughed at it. But unless i had complete control over the one i was fighting with, so that i know everymove he is going to make, so i know where not to swing so i dont hit him, or if we both trust each other and i know we will aim for each other weapons... yeah its fun, but with a real sword,#1 i would not want to messup my blade and #2, they are alot sharper and i will not ever try that, unless in a dojo, with a teacher.
again common sence should come into play, and wallhanger swords... well i dont recomend it be cause they could break at any moment, infact we dont do that any more, now that we know better.


Ronin Wolf-master

 

[Knarfan]

Well i will admit that when i was first getting into swords me and my friend went blade to blade with some wallahngers. yes i know, very,very,very,very,very,very,very BAD idea :whip:

but we both trusted each other enough, and we NEVER got hit but each other,well execept that one time he was using hollow metal antenas and hit me right above the eye with them, it was quite funney once the pain wore off, we both laughed at it. But unless i had complete control over the one i was fighting with, so that i know everymove he is going to make, so i know where not to swing so i dont hit him, or if we both trust each other and i know we will aim for each other weapons... yeah its fun, but with a real sword,#1 i would not want to messup my blade and #2, they are alot sharper and i will not ever try that, unless in a dojo, with a teacher.
again common sence should come into play, and wallhanger swords... well i dont recomend it be cause they could break at any moment, infact we dont do that any more, now that we know better.


Ronin Wolf-master

So I guess I was right about the temptation to use live blades ? Remember I'm a little older then you so anything that you may think of doing I probably have already tried, it's just human nature , you got it out of your system without any accidents . Hey there is nothing wrong with some controlled live blade training but, you need some intense training with a good instructor & you need to take every safty precaution possible . As long as you remember this you should be ok . Keep up the hard work with your training sword & when you can afford some instruction you can work on your live blade stuff . In the meantime try & treat your trainer like a live blade , thats what I do . Remamber training blades are your most valuble learning tool , don't underestimate them .

 

[Ronin Wolf-master]

Well once my Paw Paw's house gets build then he will teach me some TKD, he is a black belt, and once my Uncle comes down to see us, he will teach me some sword stuff, he was trained in Japan, but his specialty is Nunchucks, but he still knows a good bit. But in the meantime, i remain a Ronin, and i take as much safety as i can... and still move. :lol: (get it cause to much safety gear on and you cant walk... :lol: )


R.W.-M.

 

[Walter Wong]

Until you are training under the watchful eye of a legitimate sword instructor, you will be viewed just as the rest of the self taught fantasy swashbucklers out there. You are not different from them. They think they got the common sense as well and think they're doing it smarter and safer without a legitimate teacher just like you. So you won't be taken seriously as a swordsman. Like I said earlier, there are subtleties that mean life and death in sword fighting that won't be revealed through self teaching.

If your uncle is well trained in sword under legitimate instruction from Japan, well, you should wait til he gets to your house to start teaching you. Learn from someone that knows how to use a sword. Curious, what style of sword did he or he is training in Japan?

 

[Franc0]

Another way to look at this is to realise when going to an instructor, you are shown certain nuances that you, as a previously self taught practitioner, already knew or discovered. This will validate certain aspects of your self discovery into your training, which in turn makes your advancement in training personally acceptable . At the same time, the instructor will give you new and different perspectives on the same nuances that you didn't see before. So to me, even though Self Teaching/training is better than no training at all, there are times when you need more experienced insights to help your expansion of martial knowledge, be it swords, improvised weapons or H2H. When it comes to live blade training, we don't do it simply due to the Murphy's Law factor. If we want to see how well our knifework is doing, we feel marker drills are the next best thing.

Franco

 

[Ronin Wolf-master]

Curious, what style of sword did he or he is training in Japan?

you know.... i dont know, he says he knows Bushido.... wich i'm pretty sure thats not a "style" but a way of living... but i have no idea. all i know is he said he would show me some suff if he can come down before hes dead. :lol: .


R.W.-M.

 

[Charles Mahan]

Not trying to defend either point of view just asking some questions.

Would it be acceptable or correct to train with a live blade, by themselves if the student, any student, had an instructor?

Assumming it was with the instructors knowledge and consent, of course. In most schools of Iai, it is expected that all students will switch from iaito to shinken, eventually. There are certain aspects of iai which are almost impossible to learn without the feedback and potential danger of a live blade. I do not train with a live blade if I am completely alone. The danger of severe injury, one from which i may not be able to recover enough to seek help are too high. I only train with a shinken if there is someone else around. Doesnt' have to be another student or instructor, just someone who can call 911 and help with a tournequit and or pressure until help arrives.

Would be acceptable for a strudnet to practice shooting by themselves once they had basic hand gun safety and training?

You'd have to ask a gun person that question. I suspect the odds of seriously injuring your self while training solo with a gun are somewhat lower than when doing solo iai training with a shinken.

 

[Charles Mahan]

The MOST "training" i do with my live blade is drawing it and sheathing it, cause i cant do that with my bokken.

Have you looked at this yet?
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083&perpage=36&pagenu mber=2

All he was doing was sheathing his blade as well. I had hoped you weren't stupid enough to try shinken shobu. Seems you did, but at least recognize it as a stupid mistake. It's not you swinging at your friends with a live blade that I'm worried about. It's more like a reoccurence of what happened to the poor fellow in that link. He still can't move all his fingers properly from what i understand. I'm sure he thought he was being careful and had practiced it all out with a bokuto as well. He's forgotten more about knives that you're likely to ever know. Didn't save him when he thought to do as you did. You're 15 and think yourself indestructible. Fine. Have at it, but when you are loaded up in the ambulance, please don't tell the reporter that you were doing kenjutsu. It makes the rest of us look bad.

 

[Ronin Wolf-master]

Yes i have already read that thread, twice. I just try to get faster at drawing my sword, sheathing it.. well i try to get better while not looking, but i dont do it fast.... i know that i'm not good enough, and that i could do the same as he did.


R.W.-M.

 

[Charles Mahan]

Then why persist in this? Why not take the advice that EVERYONE has given you. Put the shinken down and don't ruin your life. Wait for proper training. You're only 15. You've got decades of time to learn this stuff.

Let's put it in perspective. In the MJER style that I study. I trained with an unsharpened iaito for 5 years before ever picking up a live blade, and I trained pretty heavily for those 5 years. Still it took that long before sensei was comfortable putting a live blade in my hands for solo iai training. Which is after all drawing and sheathing. It's not as safe as you think, if you do it well. It's god awful dangerous when done well. And don't think dismembering injuries only happen to the poorly trained and self taught. There was a relatively highly ranked individual out in California who'd been training a lot longer than I have who cut his thumb off drawing the blade. There are plenty of other stories of folks in Japan who have injured themselves. There was even a fellow in the dojo my instructor trained at in Chiba, who maimed the palm of his left hand so badly that he had to stop training altogether. This stuff does happen. Even to those with proper instruction.

BTW, I do wish you had taken my earlier advice to search the forums for other threads similar to this one. You have not received a single piece of advice that has not been repeated over and over and over again.

 

[Ronin Wolf-master]

no risk, no reward.

 

[Charles Mahan]

For some reason my mercenary streak is failing me and i've continued to try to talk you out of your foolisheness. Why do you keep trying to convince us you're right? If it's validation you want, you won't be finding it here.

 

[Knarfan]

Then why persist in this? Why not take the advice that EVERYONE has given you. Put the shinken down and don't ruin your life. Wait for proper training. You're only 15. You've got decades of time to learn this stuff.

Let's put it in perspective. In the MJER style that I study. I trained with an unsharpened iaito for 5 years before ever picking up a live blade, and I trained pretty heavily for those 5 years. Still it took that long before sensei was comfortable putting a live blade in my hands for solo iai training. Which is after all drawing and sheathing. It's not as safe as you think, if you do it well. It's god awful dangerous when done well. And don't think dismembering injuries only happen to the poorly trained and self taught. There was a relatively highly ranked individual out in California who'd been training a lot longer than I have who cut his thumb off drawing the blade. There are plenty of other stories of folks in Japan who have injured themselves. There was even a fellow in the dojo my instructor trained at in Chiba, who maimed the palm of his left hand so badly that he had to stop training altogether. This stuff does happen. Even to those with proper instruction.

BTW, I do wish you had taken my earlier advice to search the forums for other threads similar to this one. You have not received a single piece of advice that has not been repeated over and over and over again.

You bring up some great points about the dangers of live blade training even for highly trained/skilled individuals . Some of the highest ranked people who I train with who I consider some of the best blade people in the world have told me that training with live blades is very very dangerous no matter how skilled you are . They also told me of training accidents that they have had . Heck , I saw a friend of mine almost cut off three fingers pulling a blade out of a sheath . Ronin , I think that Charles is giving you some real good advice based on FACTS & I think you should take what he says seriously . He's not a no it all , he is a person with experiance , who is offering you some valuble info .

 

[Ronin Wolf-master]

I am understanding all of this. i know the dangers of usig a live sword blade, thats why i am most of the time using me bokken. I am as careful as i can possibly be, if i were any better i would be twins. :lol: (its a joke)

I will try again to get "real" training, but i'm keeping my sword! and even if i have to self train, i'm keeping my sword, i have waited 2 years for it, and i WONT be giving it up, you would have to pry it from my cold dead fingers! :lol: (its another joke... sortof)


I will be careful, and yall can be protective like you are, and we all get along. I appretiate the cncern, but i assue you, i'm fine, and i will be fine.

no risk, no reward.


R.W.-M.

 

[Charles Mahan]

Nobody is trying to take your sword away from you. We're just telling you to put it down until you are ready for it. We're trying to teach you to respect your sword, so that your sword does not teach you that same lesson. If you do not treat it with the respect it deserves and leave it alone until you are ready for it, it will bleed you. Maybe not today maybe not tomorrow, maybe not for a few months, but sooner or later it will lay you open and you will wish you had waited. Just stick to wood. Find instruction and it will still be there when you are ready for it.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

dont you know that 14 yr old pubescent kids know everything?
you will never talk him out of playing samurai or into finding a real teacher...........but you will probably read about him in the paper when he cuts off his own arm or leg.
i also find it funny how he has maintained an audience on the board.

 

[kroh]

i also find it funny how he has maintained an audience on the board.

I think part of the reason for this is he did not go off in many of the directions of the self proclaimed samur-i-wannabe's. He didn't try to tell us he knew his stuff because he practiced on the tree with his stainless steel (which can cut down real trees, ya know). Instead he acknowledged his ingnorance of the subject, and after stating his age and reasons for not being able to train he respectfully said in effect:

I can't do it, I will continue what I am doing, and take your advice when I am able...

He seems like he is trying to be respectful and we can all remember being at that age saying, "i want to learn to use a sword." Back then no one could tell us different either.

I totally agree with many of the fine people on this board who have many years experience with edged weapons...Put the Katana down and step away with your hands held high. We all see what seems to be a good kid in a tough place. All of us on this board want to help. Wolf, you should take Charles' advice and put that thing on a stand till you can get the proper instruction.

Even though Wolf has said that his parents know he is being carefull, I personally think there is a parenting problem here. He has also said that he is being supervised. If he is not being trained, who is supervising him, and how is it they know enough about a three foot scalpel to feel confident enough to stand there? Some one had to go out and purchase an expensive DANGEROUS weapon (along with training weapon) capable of doing extensive damage to their child or some one else. But what really scares me is that they basically said...here ya go...and now are letting this young man swing this thing around. We have all seen the injuries in our dojo's (had one where I was training a few years back...thumb/saya...you do the math) and we are all praying this young man doesn't fall victim to one.

Another reason i think this thread is so popular is a lot of the people who post regularly and are extremely knowledgeable about this subject have been posting and the subject matter has been kept extremely civil without a lot of moderator shooting. This thread should probably be stickied so the next time a conversation like this comes to light we can say... See Also...

Regards,
Walt

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i just think giving a sword to a kid is like giving them a grenade with the pin pulled. you'll be careful for awhile, but one day you will get too comfortable and BOOM!

 

[Ronin Wolf-master]

Thank you for the kind words.
________________________________________________________________

I do respect my sword, and you know what, i'm going to be honest with all of you. It DID cut me. thats right it did, it sliced my finger.No peremanet damge, nothing real bad, just a slice on my finger. I take full credit and responsability for this, because i did screw up, i messed on one of my own rules. I was trying to sheath it quickly, and even had the bright idea to use my fingers to guide it in..... KIDS READING THIS..... DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!
It hurt.... it bleed. now its wrapped up, cause i hate bandades, so it is wrapped up with a red strip of fabric. My rule is only draw it quickly, once the enemy is gone or dead, take your time, nothing else is after you so take your time in sheathing it, the danger has passed, so dont be recklass. Yes i deserved it, i broke my own rule and now my finger is wrapped up.

I'm not claiming to know everything, yes i was very lucky. But out of 2 years of messing around with like 12" knives, and wallhanger swords, and now my real sword, and i only get one accidental injury.... i think its not such a bad record. it could have been worse, i could have lost my finger, also, i'm not quite sure how it cut me, when i slowly tried to reenact it... i could not, i guess i had the edge turned wrong.. i'm not sure, but thats not the point. :lol:

Yes i make mistakes, yall have even said that the students and teachers do to, and out of 2 years, only one scrach, i think i'm doing ok, for a self trainer. :wink:

(Now i relize i've probly dug my grave and jumped in now that i send this, i'll never hear the end of it, and hey, you will all be proven right, that i do messup. Well hey if you want to jump down my throat so be it, i just thought i would be honest with yall, and let it be known, no i'm not perfect, no i'm not imortal, i'm just me.)

Oh and my parents think i'm fine with it, so do i, so plz lay off of them. thanks. :wink:

thanks

Ronin Wolf-master