Self Training...

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Having read through this thread, it strikes me as an interesting debate.
Both sides seem to have interesting points.

You have the experienced practitioners who have spent years, and in some cases decades training in an art that realistically today, has no battlefield use. This of course does allow them to focus on perfecting parts such as draws, cuts and stances, without worry that tomorrow they will have to test their knowledge in a life or death manner.

On the other side, you have the argument that there is no "secret", you don't need a "master" to teach you how to swing a long sharp blade around. They also have the lack of worry that tomorrow they will have to test their experience, and if found lacking, end up maimed or dead.

Both sides have a point. It doesn't take a genius to swing a sword. Any peasant in the middle ages could swing a sword. That didn't make them a knight. Knights and Samurai, in fact much of the "warrior class" through out history had some "code" to define what made them different from common rabble with sharp sticks. A code which had been defined and revised by generations of fellow warriors, not by themselves at their own whim. They were also considered to be adults by their culture, as warrior status was often a "right of manhood" awarded after passing some brutal trial. Those who failed, often died, and those who survived were not considered adults. I don't believe our young friends here can be considered "masterless Samurai", as they would have to have been a Samurai, or born into a Samurai family first. Aspiring to follow the code of the Samurai is noble, however I think one should seek the whole, not just cherry pick it for what you like, in order to be in a position to consider yourself one. There is also the question of who awards the 'title'. One, even in this day and age would be a bit presumptuous to simply say "I am a Master". I think you can without expert training figure out how to swing a sword. I think to learn to the level of the masters, especially today, when you do not test your mettle in life or death contests, you need an experienced teacher, and some years training.

In parting I leave you with these words of wisdom: Let all men who go to don armour tomorrow remember to go before they don armour tomorrow.

 

[arnisador]

The two swords were not a trademark. They were a symbol

Hmmm...let's see what trademark actually means:

• 1. Abbr. TM A name, symbol, or other device identifying a product, officially registered and legally restricted to the use of the owner or manufacturer.
  2. A distinctive characteristic by which a person or thing comes to be known: the shuffle and snicker that became the comedian's trademark.

(Emphasis added.) So...what exactly are you disagreeing with here?

 

[Charles Mahan]

The issue was not really about efficacy. It was an issue of safety. If the posters in question wanted to beat themselves bloody with sticks, great. As long as they weren't claiming to practice any particular style, I don't think many of us would have cared a whit beyond warning them that what they were doing was dangerous. The thing that bothered most of us was the insistence that they should train with live blades. That's potentially VERY dangerous and was worth a little extra effort in the attempt to dissuade them.

 

[Cryozombie]

Mr, uh, Blackadder...

One night, I was at a party, and there were a bunch of Dagorhier (or however you spell that) people there, all of whom were "self taught" swordspeople.

A couple of them kept goading me to swordfight with them, because the hostess of the party who was an employee of mine at the time mentioned that I had some martial arts training and that I could use a sword.

I have, in all honesty, had very little formal sword training, but, yes, some. At the time of that party it was more limited than it is now, but I had done some sword on sword and empty handed VS sword at the time.

I finally was encouraged to fight after one guy kept popping me with his boffer sword to try and make me mad.

I killed all three of the "swordsmen" that I fought that night, despite the fact that they "train" and "fight" a lot, and I had very little formal training.

My take based on that???

Real Training is Better than Self Learning.

Oh and... the two things all 3 of them had in common? 1) They took HUGE back or overhead swings drawing the sword so far behind them, that I had plenty of time to strike using a more "proper" stance, and 2) The would draw their bodys backwards while "reaching" forward to poke with the tip of the sword, allowing me to sidestep, strike the sword arm, and then "ride" the arm up to their neck and effectivly kill them every time. (which pissed them off to no end, because apparently strikes to the head are illegal)

So you never know, when you might be called to test what you know in (snicker snicker) Life or Death combat.

 

[shesulsa]

Darn it! forgot about this thread. I'll have to agree with Technopunk.

It doesn't take a genius to swing a sword. Any peasant in the middle ages could swing a sword. That didn't make them a knight.

Training in weapons has been around since weapons have been around. Fathers have taught their sons how to use the spear, the knife, the bow and arrow properly. Swinging a sword makes you ... a biped swinging a sword. Whoopee. No, it doesn't take a genius to swing a sword - it takes proper training, time and correct practice to make you a swordsman.

Knights and Samurai, in fact much of the "warrior class" through out history had some "code" to define what made them different from common rabble with sharp sticks.

This is not all that separated them from lower class peasantry. Demonstrated skill with weaponry, in wartime and other times requiring skill and more than gallantry along with proper training would win you knighthood. Not just ... swinging a sword around with your buddies and thinking that you really are quite good.

I'm curious - what is sword training like across the pond?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Some folks know I'm a fan of pro wrestling. 22 years of watching it, and frame-by-framing it, plus chatting with a few actual pros lets me know a little bit on how they do things. I can probably put on a 20 minute match at a respectible work level. But, you win't find me doing moonsaults, powerbombs, and 480' senton bombs off the top turnbuckle. That stuff requires expert training, and some serious concern for safety. I see swordsmanship the same way. You can swing a long sharp things around, and probably look half way decent (at least to those who don't know any better), but to be a true 'master', requires expert training, and a serious commitment to safety. IMHO.
:asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

Formalized training will always make you better and safer with a weapon. Whether it is swords, knives, guns or sticks. Yet, this debate keeps cropping up no matter how many times it is demonstrated.

Shooting, in particular, is notorious. There are a lot of people across the country that think when they buy a gun they need absolutely no formal training in order to learn to use it. They'll just go down to the gravel pit and shoot and everything will be great.

This may be true to a certain extent, anyone can pull the trigger and get the darn thing to work. Yet, if you put someone like that...and he may have practiced like that for 20 years, next to someone like my uncle, who was trained by the US Marines, there is absolutely no comparison.

There is a saying that is applicable here and I use it with my students when teaching weapons..."Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."

Formal training with a good teacher will teach one how to practice perfectly.

 

[shesulsa]

"Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."

My teacher's favorite saying. Lending to it is the fact that bad habits are HARD to break if you're practicing them all the time and it's even worse if you don't know they are bad habits in the first place.

 

[Walter Wong]

Mr, uh, Blackadder...

One night, I was at a party, and there were a bunch of Dagorhier (or however you spell that) people there, all of whom were "self taught" swordspeople.

A couple of them kept goading me to swordfight with them, because the hostess of the party who was an employee of mine at the time mentioned that I had some martial arts training and that I could use a sword.

I have, in all honesty, had very little formal sword training, but, yes, some. At the time of that party it was more limited than it is now, but I had done some sword on sword and empty handed VS sword at the time.

I finally was encouraged to fight after one guy kept popping me with his boffer sword to try and make me mad.

I killed all three of the "swordsmen" that I fought that night, despite the fact that they "train" and "fight" a lot, and I had very little formal training.

My take based on that???

Real Training is Better than Self Learning.

Oh and... the two things all 3 of them had in common? 1) They took HUGE back or overhead swings drawing the sword so far behind them, that I had plenty of time to strike using a more "proper" stance, and 2) The would draw their bodys backwards while "reaching" forward to poke with the tip of the sword, allowing me to sidestep, strike the sword arm, and then "ride" the arm up to their neck and effectivly kill them every time. (which pissed them off to no end, because apparently strikes to the head are illegal)

So you never know, when you might be called to test what you know in (snicker snicker) Life or Death combat.

Thank you for sharing that. That must have been fun to expose the weakness in self training.

Your background is Bujinkan I see from your profile. I'd put my money on you over any selftaught swordsman.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

I'm curious - what is sword training like across the pond?

Honestly? I don't know. I'm more interested the history than actually picking one up and swinging it about.

 

[Charles Mahan]

There is a fair amount of Kendo and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu iaido. A few other things. A lot of the UK crowd hang out over at http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/index.php

 

[Cryozombie]

Your background is Bujinkan I see from your profile. I'd put my money on you over any selftaught swordsman.

Eh. Im not that good, they were just that bad.

 

[Knarfan]

Honestly? I don't know. I'm more interested the history than actually picking one up and swinging it about.

Of course your not interested in picking one up & swinging it about. People who like to train do that , they not only are interested in the history but, they also like to do their own swinging & learning. The way I see it is there are two types of people in this world the doers & the talkers. The doers are the people who actually have some formal training & love to learn, the talkers are the self taught who really don't want to do any serious training but, they want to reap the benefits & take credit for skill that they actually don't have, why? because there is somthing missing. it actually takes somone who has the drive to actually pick up a weapon put out some of their hard earned money & get off their lazy rear end & put in some serious training time & effort to learn & learn how to respect somone elses skills. I see it all of the time in my training , the fact is people want it to be easy they don't want to work for it but, they will always have plenty to say about the subject, but thats ok, talkers talk & doers TRAIN....

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Darn it! forgot about this thread. I'll have to agree with Technopunk.


Training in weapons has been around since weapons have been around. Fathers have taught their sons how to use the spear, the knife, the bow and arrow properly. Swinging a sword makes you ... a biped swinging a sword. Whoopee. No, it doesn't take a genius to swing a sword - it takes proper training, time and correct practice to make you a swordsman.

I believe that was my point.

This is not all that separated them from lower class peasantry. Demonstrated skill with weaponry, in wartime and other times requiring skill and more than gallantry along with proper training would win you knighthood. Not just ... swinging a sword around with your buddies and thinking that you really are quite good.

Again, that was my point.

To be a true swordsman, through out history, required a level of skill, that was not just picked up by swinging a sword around, but through practice, under the eyes of an experienced instructor, and real world battlefield testing. The European knights had a system of training, squires and all that, the gladiators had trainers, the Romans had weapons masters, etc.

 

[shesulsa]

Ah. Must have gotten lost in the translation - either by the writer or the reader - not sure which.

 

[Knarfan]

I believe that was my point.



Again, that was my point.

To be a true swordsman, through out history, required a level of skill, that was not just picked up by swinging a sword around, but through practice, under the eyes of an experienced instructor, and real world battlefield testing. The European knights had a system of training, squires and all that, the gladiators had trainers, the Romans had weapons masters, etc.

Well put Edmund!

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Of course your not interested in picking one up & swinging it about. People who like to train do that , they not only are interested in the history but, they also like to do their own swinging & learning. The way I see it is there are two types of people in this world the doers & the talkers. The doers are the people who actually have some formal training & love to learn, the talkers are the self taught who really don't want to do any serious training but, they want to reap the benefits & take credit for skill that they actually don't have, why? because there is somthing missing. it actually takes somone who has the drive to actually pick up a weapon put out some of their hard earned money & get off their lazy rear end & put in some serious training time & effort to learn & learn how to respect somone elses skills. I see it all of the time in my training , the fact is people want it to be easy they don't want to work for it but, they will always have plenty to say about the subject, but thats ok, talkers talk & doers TRAIN....

Are you saying sir, that just because I do not train this weapon, I should have no opinion of it, it's use, it's training, and it's history? That I should hold my tongue and that historical information has no bearing on this topic?

I find the training of ancient weapons to be a quaint, but mostly pointless practice. I am not likely to be attacked by someone weilding a sword and wearing armour, or from horseback, or swinging a rice flail. However, the practice does have a traditional value, and the skills and knowledge should be preserved, so I find no fault with those who choose to do so. I admire those who do commit the time and effort to do so, it's simply not my thing.

 

[shesulsa]

Looks to me like he might have been addressing the general "you" there, Ed. May I call you Ed?

 

[Knarfan]

Are you saying sir, that just because I do not train this weapon, I should have no opinion of it, it's use, it's training, and it's history? That I should hold my tongue and that historical information has no bearing on this topic?

I find the training of ancient weapons to be a quaint, but mostly pointless practice. I am not likely to be attacked by someone weilding a sword and wearing armour, or from horseback, or swinging a rice flail. However, the practice does have a traditional value, and the skills and knowledge should be preserved, so I find no fault with those who choose to do so. I admire those who do commit the time and effort to do so, it's simply not my thing.

Not at all sir. I was talking about people who don't train at all, not you. Your opinion sounds like it comes from an educated point of view. I was speaking in more general terms, you definatly weren't the subject that I was talking about. I apologize, I really wasn't talking about you. I guess I may have made an error in my presentation? My apologies ....

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

No harm. My apologies as well for being a little short in my reply.

And Shesulsa, you may. But not Mr. Ed please.