Self Defense from rape

[Steve]

Rape isn't about sex, it's about having power over your victim and hurting them in ways that also humiliate them.
Self defence is never bad but we also need to take into account that sometimes the best self defence is not to resist or fight back. It must be accepted that the victim should be respected for whatever action they take because they and only they can decide on the way they deal with it based on their situation, their instincts and their strength. We must never tell people that if they don't fight it wasn't rape, we must never tell people who aren't beaten up because they chose to take a passive way that they were wrong, they are never wrong.

Victim blaming is never okay.

 

[aedrasteia]

Rape isn't about sex, it's about having power over your victim and hurting them in ways that also humiliate them.
Self defence is never bad but we also need to take into account that sometimes the best self defence is not to resist or fight back. It must be accepted that the victim should be respected for whatever action they take because they and only they can decide on the way they deal with it based on their situation, their instincts and their strength. We must never tell people that if they don't fight it wasn't rape, we must never tell people who aren't beaten up because they chose to take a passive way that they were wrong, they are never wrong.

Thanks Tez. Survivors/targets/victims are told this every day - usually in the form of 'questions' from
family and 'friends'. And many MA/SD instructors and experts pay (very) brief lip-service to saying
' whatever you decide to do is OK' - and go straight to a technical speculation on what she 'could have done'
lots of opinions, assessments, critiques. Just like this and other threads.
Right in front of her. While she is right there, in front of them.

They want to 'help', you know.

 

[aedrasteia]

Victim blaming is never okay.

Thanks Steve. Lots of lip-service, and then right back to it. (not directed at you). I'm just so tired of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thanks Tez. Survivors/targets/victims are told this every day - usually in the form of 'questions' from
family and 'friends'. And many MA/SD instructors and experts pay (very) brief lip-service to saying
' whatever you decide to do is OK' - and go straight to a technical speculation on what she 'could have done'
lots of opinions, assessments, critiques. Just like this and other threads.
Right in front of her. While she is right there, in front of them.

They want to 'help', you know.

I think part of the problem is that some (many?) SD instructors confuse what a victim "could" have done with what she "should" have done. There are always different choices that were possibilities. That doesn't mean they were better choices, would have produced better outcomes, or ought to have been used. Only the person in the situation can make that decision, and they have to make the decision that is right for them in that moment, as best they can, with what options and personal abilities they have available.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks Tez. Survivors/targets/victims are told this every day - usually in the form of 'questions' from
family and 'friends'. And many MA/SD instructors and experts pay (very) brief lip-service to saying
' whatever you decide to do is OK' - and go straight to a technical speculation on what she 'could have done'
lots of opinions, assessments, critiques. Just like this and other threads.
Right in front of her. While she is right there, in front of them.

They want to 'help', you know.

People do that after a sports fight loss as well.

Doesn't help there either.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks Tez. Survivors/targets/victims are told this every day - usually in the form of 'questions' from
family and 'friends'. And many MA/SD instructors and experts pay (very) brief lip-service to saying
' whatever you decide to do is OK' - and go straight to a technical speculation on what she 'could have done'
lots of opinions, assessments, critiques. Just like this and other threads.
Right in front of her. While she is right there, in front of them.

They want to 'help', you know.

I had over 20 years of a few work colleagues doing this, the 'well, I would have...' when ever I dealt with a situation. They would tell me how they would have dealt with it. However I had dealt with it my way and nine and a half times of out of ten successfully, the real reason they were telling me is because I dealt with it as a woman and not a man, I'd talked, placated sometimes, tried for agreements and generally tried not to use unnecessary violence, they nearly always would be more 'butch', much more 'assertive' ( they thought actually it came over as more aggressive). When checking drunk squaddies for example I would go along with the mood, 'jolly' them along to check their IDs, check where they've been, if they knew anything about the incident etc etc, these few would stand on their authority and demand to be spoken to with 'respect', they turned the mood of the squaddies from jolly to aggressive, not what you want or need when you have a bunch of them. Perhaps I did look less authoritative, more approachable but then I never got threatened, the squaddies might have been more suggestive, more flirty even with me but by god I got the job done. After though I got the 'what I would have done', yeah whatever, at least I never had to call the dog section for backup or got thumped by a big Fijian soldier lol.

So many think self defence is all about 'fighting', being able to use martial arts techniques to get out of a situation, self defence is about coming out a survivor, not a victim. these days when you have politicians spouting off that you can't get pregnant during rape ( if you do it seems it wasn't rape ), that women are to blame for being raped ( it seems too that men don't get raped in these people's world), self defence is 'not wearing revealing clothes'. Obviously if you are beaten black and blue or murdered then perhaps there's a chance you didn't 'ask for it', but you have to be broken to have them think that.

The message should be ' do what you have to survive', then do that, survive and live your life to the fullest you can, you were and are right. What the rest of us should do is support that, to lobby politicians for proper sentencing for rapists, to help finance rape crisis centres, to have the whole idea of what is rape ( not just of women) turned around and seen for what it is and stop this macho nonsense of 'all you have to do is kick them in the nuts' and you 'have to go down fighting' attitude.

 

[drop bear]

I had over 20 years of a few work colleagues doing this, the 'well, I would have...' when ever I dealt with a situation. They would tell me how they would have dealt with it. However I had dealt with it my way and nine and a half times of out of ten successfully, the real reason they were telling me is because I dealt with it as a woman and not a man, I'd talked, placated sometimes, tried for agreements and generally tried not to use unnecessary violence, they nearly always would be more 'butch', much more 'assertive' ( they thought actually it came over as more aggressive). When checking drunk squaddies for example I would go along with the mood, 'jolly' them along to check their IDs, check where they've been, if they knew anything about the incident etc etc, these few would stand on their authority and demand to be spoken to with 'respect', they turned the mood of the squaddies from jolly to aggressive, not what you want or need when you have a bunch of them. Perhaps I did look less authoritative, more approachable but then I never got threatened, the squaddies might have been more suggestive, more flirty even with me but by god I got the job done. After though I got the 'what I would have done', yeah whatever, at least I never had to call the dog section for backup or got thumped by a big Fijian soldier lol.

So many think self defence is all about 'fighting', being able to use martial arts techniques to get out of a situation, self defence is about coming out a survivor, not a victim. these days when you have politicians spouting off that you can't get pregnant during rape ( if you do it seems it wasn't rape ), that women are to blame for being raped ( it seems too that men don't get raped in these people's world), self defence is 'not wearing revealing clothes'. Obviously if you are beaten black and blue or murdered then perhaps there's a chance you didn't 'ask for it', but you have to be broken to have them think that.

The message should be ' do what you have to survive', then do that, survive and live your life to the fullest you can, you were and are right. What the rest of us should do is support that, to lobby politicians for proper sentencing for rapists, to help finance rape crisis centres, to have the whole idea of what is rape ( not just of women) turned around and seen for what it is and stop this macho nonsense of 'all you have to do is kick them in the nuts' and you 'have to go down fighting' attitude.

Ok. But how do you then approach women who basically want to walk in front of a bus?

I know I go to the wrong place and say the wrong thing I will get my self flogged. It would nice if I could have the freedom of a safe society but it is not the case and it is my head if I screw up.

 

[Tez3]

Ok. But how do you then approach women who basically want to walk in front of a bus?

I know I go to the wrong place and say the wrong thing I will get my self flogged. It would nice if I could have the freedom of a safe society but it is not the case and it is my head if I screw up.

Sorry? I actually have no idea what you mean? I don't see how 'safe society' comes into this, I've said we need to sort sentencing out for rapists, sentencing as you should know comes after being found guilty and many people think that the sentence should reflect the crime. I don't see how you going somewhere and shooting your mouth off has anything to do with rape sentencing, rape crisis centres or indeed self defence.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry? I actually have no idea what you mean? I don't see how 'safe society' comes into this, I've said we need to sort sentencing out for rapists, sentencing as you should know comes after being found guilty and many people think that the sentence should reflect the crime. I don't see how you going somewhere and shooting your mouth off has anything to do with rape sentencing, rape crisis centres or indeed self defence.

None of the extra sentencing will stop rape. It will always be a risk that has to be managed by the victim.

 

[Tez3]

None of the extra sentencing will stop rape. It will always be a risk that has to be managed by the victim.

Excuse me? Where did I said anything about 'stopping rape'? I think you have got this all the wrong way around, sentencing is about justice for the victim, so that each one feels that taking their case to the police and the subsequent trial has been worth the effort it took ( and it is considerable). the sentencing should be appropriate to the crime because the perpetrator has to feel the punishment. Justice has to be seen to be done.
'Extra' sentencing? No, we need appropriate sentencing, not a sentence of a few months because the guilty is a really good swimmer, not a let off because the victim was an educated woman who therefore 'isn't vulnerable'.
You have fundamentally misunderstood what I have said and twisted into something it's not.

 

[senseiblackbelt]

Rape isn't about sex, it's about having power over your victim and hurting them in ways that also humiliate them.

God that is so fucked up.

Self defence is never bad but we also need to take into account that sometimes the best self defence is not to resist or fight back. It must be accepted that the victim should be respected for whatever action they take because they and only they can decide on the way they deal with it based on their situation, their instincts and their strength. We must never tell people that if they don't fight it wasn't rape, we must never tell people who aren't beaten up because they chose to take a passive way that they were wrong, they are never wrong.

Fair enough

 

[Tez3]

Myths about rape

Sexual violence overview

"Sexual violence is any unwanted sexual act or activity. There are many different kinds of sexual violence, including but not restricted to: rape, sexual assault, child sexual abuse, sexual harassment, rape within marriage / relationships, forced marriage, so-called honour-based violence, female genital mutilation, trafficking, sexual exploitation, and ritual abuse.
Sexual violence can be perpetrated by a complete stranger, or by someone known and even trusted, such as a friend, colleague, family member, partner or ex-partner. Sexual violence can happen to anyone. No-one ever deserves or asks for it to happen.
100% of the responsibility for any act of sexual violence lies with its perpetrator. There is no excuse for sexual violence; it can never be justified, it can never be explained away and there is no context in which it is valid, understandable or acceptable.
If you have been raped or experienced any other kind of sexual violence, no matter where you were, what you were doing, what you were wearing, what you were saying, if you were drunk or under the influence of drugs, it was not your fault and you did not deserve this.
It might help for you to know that, by law, a person consents to sexual activity if she or he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice. If you said 'yes' to something because you were scared for your life or your safety or for the life or safety of someone you care about, or if you were asleep or unconscious or incapacitated through alcohol or drugs, for example, then you didn't agree by choice and have the freedom and capacity to make that choice. If you froze or your body 'flopped' or went limp through fear, if you didn't say the word 'no' or weren't able to speak at all through shock, if you didn't shout or fight or struggle, it doesn't mean you gave your consent for what happened to you."

and in case you think this is just about women. Support for men and boys who have been raped

 

[Gerry Seymour]

People do that after a sports fight loss as well.

Doesn't help there either.

Probably more of a chance of it helping in a sports fight, since a similar scenario is likely to replay, assuming it wasn't just a crazy one-off. Mind you, it probably only helps if they know what they are talking about. If I ever give someone advice on how to win an MMA fight, just slap me until I shut up.

 

[Paul_D]

100% of the responsibility for any act of sexual violence lies with its perpetrator.

I am of the (somewhat unpopular I accept) opinion that 100% of your personal safety is your own responsibility (unless you are a child or vulnerable adult for example) and so if you decide to take that short cut through the woods at 2 in the morning, or you drink yourself into uncouncioussness, then you have to take some (not all, not most, but some) of the responsibility for those actions/decisions which have placed you in danger. You didn't deserve whatever crime you end up being a victim of, but to say it is 100% not your fault, I don't agree with.

 

[Tez3]

I am of the (somewhat unpopular I accept) opinion that 100% of your personal safety is your own responsibility (unless you are a child or vulnerable adult for example) and so if you decide to take that short cut through the woods at 2 in the morning, or you drink yourself into uncouncioussness, then you have to take some (not all, not most, but some) of the responsibility for those actions/decisions which have placed you in danger. You didn't deserve whatever crime you end up being a victim of, but to say it is 100% not your fault, I don't agree with.

However, rape happens in those circumstances very, very rarely when a girl walks through the woods at 2 in the morning. As for the drinking part, the case where the rapist was let off with a few months prison was one where he came across a girl who had passed out and he raped her. he was walking past, saw an unconscious girl and raped her. Yes it was her responsibility to not have passed out but it was 100% his fault he raped her. I have come across more passed out men than I care to think about but no one has raped them, no one did anything to them.
Former Stanford swimmer convicted of rape gets six-month sentence

It is never the victims 'fault', that word is inappropriate, you can say they were careless, unthinking or even ignorant etc but to say it's partly their fault is wrong, it is entirely the fault of the rapist who committed a serious crime.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Follow up on the victim's Situation. There is video on the website as well. Freaking 200 people signed up for the same self-defense class. Looks like it's time for one of my female students to get attacked in public lol... just kidding and making light of the 200 people and not the actual attack. 1000 attendees a month? I wonder if it's a free class. Maybe one that helps bring them into the karate school If he's pulling in that many a month then that's awesome.

There seems to be a lack of awareness of just how many women have been able to successfully fight off an attacker. Here's a quote from one of the attendees "It was definitely empowering," said Julia York, 35, one of the attendees. "I really loved that this was actually a story where the woman was able to fight off the attack. We don't hear about that."
Women and people in general don't actively search for things like this, but I know for many of us here, we see at least 1 or 2 examples of this every month.


After Seattle woman fights off attacker, self-defense classes boom

 

[Tez3]

So we peddle the story that taking a 'self defence' seminar is going to empower ( how I hate that word) women to fight back because unless they fight back they aren't really being raped/attacked.
What is it about allowing women to trust their instincts that isn't getting through? What is it about 'all women' must fight that is so attractive here unless it's getting paying customers in through the door. Make no mistake, women's self defence is big business.
A self defence seminar which empowers women, doesn't, it gives them a false sense of security that they can fight their attacker off easily. I've talked to women like that, the Cub leader who takes them after our Rainbows is one. She went on a course, she is now convinced totally that if someone comes at her with a knife she will successfully fight them off, not only that but disarm them to boot. Nothing I say will dissuade her that she is wrong, it worked when she did it with the partner she had so it works right?
There's plenty of common sense precautions we can teach, there's a fair few things we can also instruct to help but we need really to stop this idea that every time you can fight off your attacker, this dulls the mind, stops people coming up with inventive and instinctive moves that will actually help.
Yes some women do fight off their attacker but look at the rape figures, thousands don't, thousands are battered, raped and even murdered as opposed to the few who successfully ward off an attack. In the 12 months to June 2015, police recorded 95,482 sexual offences in England and Wales - an increase of 27,602 - with the numbers of rapes (31,621) and other sexual offences (63,861) at the highest level since the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in 2002/03. Strangely overall, serious crime in England and Wales was down 8% in the year to June to its lowest level since 1981!

Women have always known how to fight back, they don't need to be told to go for vulnerable points, they don't need to be told how to kick, bite, punch, scratch or anything else but what people need to understand is that whatever the victim decides to do is good, because only the person being attacked knows her strength, the situation, her abilities, her opportunities and she probably knows her attacker as well so will react instinctively in the best way for her.

It is good to read of women who have fought off an attacker and I am pleased they do but it's a rarer thing than you think, I would suggest that while it encourages women to join martial arts classes it also teaches women that they don't have any defences unless they do, it teaches them they are helpless until the martial arts instructor shows them the magic tricks.

Looks like it's time for one of my female students to get attacked in public lol... just kidding and making light of the 200 people and not the actual attack.

Not even slightly funny, in fact it's bang out of order.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So we peddle the story that taking a 'self defence' seminar is going to empower ( how I hate that word) women to fight back because unless they fight back they aren't really being raped/attacked.
What is it about allowing women to trust their instincts that isn't getting through? What is it about 'all women' must fight that is so attractive here unless it's getting paying customers in through the door. Make no mistake, women's self defence is big business.
A self defence seminar which empowers women, doesn't, it gives them a false sense of security that they can fight their attacker off easily. I've talked to women like that, the Cub leader who takes them after our Rainbows is one. She went on a course, she is now convinced totally that if someone comes at her with a knife she will successfully fight them off, not only that but disarm them to boot. Nothing I say will dissuade her that she is wrong, it worked when she did it with the partner she had so it works right?
There's plenty of common sense precautions we can teach, there's a fair few things we can also instruct to help but we need really to stop this idea that every time you can fight off your attacker, this dulls the mind, stops people coming up with inventive and instinctive moves that will actually help.
Yes some women do fight off their attacker but look at the rape figures, thousands don't, thousands are battered, raped and even murdered as opposed to the few who successfully ward off an attack. In the 12 months to June 2015, police recorded 95,482 sexual offences in England and Wales - an increase of 27,602 - with the numbers of rapes (31,621) and other sexual offences (63,861) at the highest level since the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in 2002/03. Strangely overall, serious crime in England and Wales was down 8% in the year to June to its lowest level since 1981!

Women have always known how to fight back, they don't need to be told to go for vulnerable points, they don't need to be told how to kick, bite, punch, scratch or anything else but what people need to understand is that whatever the victim decides to do is good, because only the person being attacked knows her strength, the situation, her abilities, her opportunities and she probably knows her attacker as well so will react instinctively in the best way for her.

It is good to read of women who have fought off an attacker and I am pleased they do but it's a rarer thing than you think, I would suggest that while it encourages women to join martial arts classes it also teaches women that they don't have any defences unless they do, it teaches them they are helpless until the martial arts instructor shows them the magic tricks.



Not even slightly funny, in fact it's bang out of order.

I agree with the overall concept, Tez. The only "right" choice is the one she makes at the moment. Nobody else (not even her future self) can remake that decision. Nobody else (including her future self) is in that moment trying to figure out what the right decision is.

That said, I don't agree that women (or men, either) don't gain from learning how to hit, kick, etc. Most people aren't very good at it. In a moment of need, if a person decides to fight, they are best served by having some training to improve the chances of that decision leading to success (however they define it).

I do think a short course isn't optimal. However, as long as it doesn't leave them feeling invincible (like the Cub leader you mentioned), it can still have value to them. I worked today on some very basic movements with a woman. She might or might not ever come back, but she had a chance today to practice some very simple things she can do in response to some very basic types of attack. If she comes back, she'll learn more and better responses. When I teach these things, I try to ensure people know what they are actually learning. Nobody becomes invincible, regardless of their training. It is a disservice to them if they are allowed to feel they are, because of the manner of training.

 

[Tez3]

That said, I don't agree that women (or men, either) don't gain from learning how to hit, kick, etc.

I know they do gain from learning but it has to be the right sort of learning such as you provide. The wrong sort of learning is a Facebook post which purports to show women what to do if attacked because every good attacker is going to stand waiting for his victim to poke him in the eye and let her kick him in the nuts, then of course there was the ground stuff just no. I saw comments on there thanking this women for her fantastic teaching!

There's a lot of money to be made from teaching women self defence, it's very fashionable right now and so much of it quite dangerous.

women self defence | Iain Abernethy. The discussions on Iain's site are very interesting, I very much agree with Ian's take on things especially the fact that nearly all self defence is taught by men and as he says even the female instructors have been taught by men, that male bias creeps in unknowingly in a lot of cases.

I also like Ian's " whoops wrong” vs. “you are to blame wrong” when it comes to putting the blame where it lies.

 

[drop bear]

Excuse me? Where did I said anything about 'stopping rape'? I think you have got this all the wrong way around, sentencing is about justice for the victim, so that each one feels that taking their case to the police and the subsequent trial has been worth the effort it took ( and it is considerable). the sentencing should be appropriate to the crime because the perpetrator has to feel the punishment. Justice has to be seen to be done.
'Extra' sentencing? No, we need appropriate sentencing, not a sentence of a few months because the guilty is a really good swimmer, not a let off because the victim was an educated woman who therefore 'isn't vulnerable'.
You have fundamentally misunderstood what I have said and twisted into something it's not.

Fair enough. My focus is more about stopping or preventing rape. I am for justice afterwards. But I would rather someone not go through it in the first place.