Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Brian King, May 22, 2015.

  1. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    So, here's the thing. As jks9199 said, if you see it in the news, it's likely not all that common. So, I've no doubt we can find some news articles, but it's in the stats that we actually see how common or rare these things actually are.

    Regarding the tools such as a taser or pepper spray, sure some training could be wise but how long would it take to become proficiently? 12 years?

    Regarding the rape stats, we surely do have an issue. The large concentration of young people. The lack of adult supervision. The peer environment. The promotion of excessive drinking and partying. It's a real issue. And, it appears that 12 hours of instruction can make a significant difference. While we do have some information suggesting that this curriculum was effective, I haven't seen any data to suggest that extensive martial training is more effective than, say, crossfit or parkour training in reducing the number of attempted or successful sexual assaults.
     
  2. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yet, we have martial practitioner's that have defended themselves as document to that success. It is not just some articles as I could list more and more and more if I wanted to. I cannot help it that you just throw away a few reports that I found in a couple of seconds while hardly even looking. That is convenient to your argument.

    Statistics of crime reported is a good base measuring point on what is going on. The problem is do you want to be a statistic? Do you want your family to be a statistic? Training in a comprehensive manner can give you, your family an edge. I do get it that you train for fun, recreation, to be fit, etc. There are a lot of people that train for other reasons and many people train to be more physically effective. Some because they have experienced violence and some because they do not want to experience violence. Some because it will help with their profession, etc.

    In regards to firearm training, pepper spray, tasers, etc. can be readily trained in a short time and be effective. Yet, if you practice regularly and often as with any physical skill set then you will be better than someone with a short brief period of training. I would argue that even less than 12 hours can make a difference in training that covers awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, threat indicators, etc. plus physical training. Yet, if someone invests more time they will in turn be better at these skills than someone who invests minimal time. I would give someone who has a lot more training under their belt a greater chance of success. Though there are a lot of factors involved.

    In regards to rape at Colleges and Universities the University or College has a stake in simply making it go away. Watch the entire VICE program I recommended and you will see there is even more of a problem than simply young people, excessive drinking, lack of adult supervision, etc. Anyone sending a young woman to College should have some concerns regarding this issue and how Colleges and Universities across this country are treating rape victims.

    We can go around and around Steve but really we are probably just wasting each others time here as this thread is going in a direction other than what the OP intended and we should probably get back on topic discussion what people feel are the Fundamental Pillars of Self Defense.
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    and there are many others of people with zero martial arts training who also successfully defended themselves. Finding the few who provide anecdotal support for your predisposed position is questionable. Once again, learning martial arts is great, but I see no real evidence to suggest that it's preventing more crime than crossfit training.
    everyone is different. Certainly, people with a professional interest in martial skills will want effective training. And if it makes you feel safer, great. For some people, some modest amount of martial training could be very helpful. Some people are at greater risk of violence than others. And shoot, it can fun.

    And to be clear, I'm not saying self defense training is a bad idea for anyone. What I'm saying is that martial skill, for most, is a red herring. It may actually be distracting you from training actual, useful self defense skills that might save your life. Bang for the buck, given limited time and money, there are many other things that will likely keep you safer than martial arts.
    Yeah. Okay. Fwiw, I think we agree on the issue. And I think that learning martial arts is useful, provided self defense isn't your primary goal. Or said the other way, if one is strictly interested in self defense, a martial arts oriented program is probably not the most efficient path.
     
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  4. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    is the most efficient path to SD out there already Steve would you say? if so, what is it? if not, what might it be? Jx
     
  5. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    In regards to this thread, here's my question - Does Martial training change anything about you? I don't mean taking a course, or spending a few months in a "working out phase", but actual training for a period of time.

    Think about what you've learned. Think about the various people you've been forced to deal/train with day in and day out. The strong people, the fast people, the agressive people, the experienced people. Do you know more about body language than you did before you started? Do you know more about the body, both yours and his, than you did before? Do you know how to get out of a headlock? Do you know how to read a room? Do you trust your instincts more than you did before you trained? Are you in better physical shape? Better mental shape? Can you see a punch coming better than you could before? Can you run for a longer time than before? Have you spent any nights in the dojo talking about crime and avoiding/defending crime? Can you deal with someone trying to push you into a doorway better than you could before? Can you size up a person more effectively than you could before? Do you have a better knowledge about weapons than you did before, any weapons? Do you know more about balance than you did before? His balance? Your balance? Can you create force better than you could before you trained? Do you understand more about position than you did before? Are you more experienced with bearhugs and armgrabs than you were before? Are you stronger than you used to be? Are you quicker? Can you control your breathing better than you used to? Do you have a better general knowledge of self defense law than you did? Is your physical endurance greater than it used to be? Do you think you could defend someone standing beside you better than you could before? Do you think you are a better judge of what practical self defense wisdom is than you were before you first trained? Can you control your temper better than you could before? Can you use your elbows and knees for things other than bending your limbs? Can you take advantage of being behind someone better than you could before? Do you recognize when you're being sized up better than you did before? Can you hit someone harder than you used to? Can you take someone down better? Are you more patient?

    Remember those days/weeks when you were too damn tired to go train...but you went anyway. Remember those days at work where you were so sore, achey and bruised that you almost moaned yourself to sleep at your desk? Remember that month when your knee wouldn't stop hurting so you wrapped it tight, prayed and just kept going? Maybe Joe Smoe walking down the street picking a victim will pass you by....just because. Or maybe if he picks you - he's picking a person who's different than they used to be.

    Maybe training in Martial arts isn't the most efficient path, maybe it's the most difficult one. Could be, I don't know. But we get to own that path. And it comes with a heavy toll. Both to us and especially to poor Joe Shmoe. I'd say may he rest in peace, but F him.
     
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  6. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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    Another $.02

    I think some sort of unarmed technique is necessiary in a SD "program". But not necessiarly "martial arts". IMO I think the biggest hurdle the new SD student has to jump is simple aggressiveness and moving/striking with speed and power. Someone who can punch/kick/stab with a pen aggreesively who is given a few simple techniques would suffice as a base of unarmed techniques in a basic SD program.
     
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  7. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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    I also think that "some" MA schools who claim to provide SD training do their students a disservice if those students cant walk out of the school on the first day with some form of viable advice/technique to defend themselves.
     
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  8. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I would say that there may or may not be great training out there. We just don't know.

    The thing is, if someone trains in a self defense program and survives an assault, the experts will say, "See, Steve. I know that some of my students have used the skills they've learned. The survived to tell me about it." The implication is that they survived because they were prepared, and boy, aren't I the a-hole for questioning that.

    But if someone who has not trained survives an assault, such as the woman I mentioned earlier who trained for American Ninja Warrior, these same guys would say (as they did in this thread), she survived because she was lucky. Pure luck. What else could it be? She wasn't "trained." This is a perfect example of confirmation bias.

    Given what we can see statistically, only a small fraction of a percent of people are assaulted, and this is disregarding any analysis of risky behaviors. And of those, only a very, very small percent are killed. In other words, even if you are assaulted, your chances of being killed are miniscule. It happens. Sure. But it doesn't happen often.

    So, how do we know that those people who "used their self defense training" survived because of it? We don't. Statistically, it's pretty likely that they would survive either way, trained or not. Or as I said earlier, there's no data suggesting that someone who has trained in TKD, BJJ or anything else is more likely to avoid an assault or survive an assault than someone who trains in crossfit or parkour (or tae bo or cardio kickboxing classes). Feeling safe vs being safe.

    And what happens when a person who has self defense training IS killed? Tragic as that may be, can we conclude that the training is inneffective or without merit? No. Of course not. That would be the same faulty logic at work. The likely response is to suggest, sadly, that this person was unlucky. And the person who has no training who may be killed in an assault? Well, that person was unprepared and/or untrained.

    Can you see the issue here? How self serving this is?

    Are these programs effective? We don't know. And from the emotional reaction we witnessed here to my use of the term "data," I don't think there's much interest in finding out.

    Which is why I was so excited about the coed assault program and the study that surrounded it. Here we have a program that was designed based upon a sincere effort to identify what actually makes women safer on college campuses. Not makes them feel safer. But what would make them less likely to be assaulted, and if assaulted, less likely for the assuault to be successful. The result was a 12 hour program.

    There was a structure in place for evaluating the effectiveness of the training. In other words, there were standards. They identified key metrics that they were interested in improving, and they did. We can see evidence that the training directly impacted the incidence of assaults, among other things.

    And even here, you can see the reaction in this thread is to qualify the results. "Well, it's good, but if there were more martial training, it would be better." Really? Where's the evidence of that? Maybe it would be better, but we don't know that. All we really know is that it would be longer.
     
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  9. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Excellent post.
     
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  10. pgsmith

    pgsmith Master of Arts

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    But you see Steve, this is a martial arts forum. Of course the resounding opinion here is going to be that anything is better with more martial training. It's what we do and what we believe in. It's like arguing on a Christian church forum that going to church isn't really necessary. :)
     
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  11. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    LOL. I think the comparison to religion is very apropros, Paul!

    For the record, martial arts training is fun and as Buka very eloquently wrote above, there are a gazillion great reasons to train. But self defense training and martial arts training are not the same thing. I don't think I'm too far off the reservation saying that.
     
  12. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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    Basic training gave me some "self defense" training too I guess. Fitness, firearms, some unarmed fighting training (a little bit...but some), bayonet/pugil stick fighting, etc....

    But the intent was to train me to work as part of a team in order to kill other people and break their stuff vs just protecting myself.

    But it is a fairly history proven method of making people "capable" in a short period of time.

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
     
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  13. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Hey Steve,

    Absolutely not off the reservation saying that martial arts training and self defense are different! Yet there is crossover. ;)


    If we look at statistics.
    The thing about statistics is quite often they can be statistically wrong or right or some where in between. While I definitely believe that the NEJM study is probably pretty spot on I do wonder at trying to extrapolate it to far. Instead it is one source and hopefully we will have a lot more in the future and or have some new ones shown to us soon. Case in point regarding statistics there is a lot of grey area at times. I personally know of several firearm studies statistically done at the University level that easily tie in with self-defense because while done on firearms a realistic program of personal protection would have firearm training or advocate firearm training for their participants.

    Here are two studies one lauded by firearm enthusiasts as justifying concealed carry and responsible firearm ownership as the way to go and the other well picks it apart: and find almost the exact opposite:

    http://scholarlycommons.law.northwe...G=&as_sdt=1%2C33&as_sdtp=#search="gary kleck"
    analysis: http://www.supertrap.com/ST_Downloads_files/GunStatistics1.pdf

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1615397/pdf/amjph00463-0112.pdf


    People have used the above studies either as a mantra or decried it as being very flawed. Both of the first two studies reportedly have money behind them from various interest groups so take that for what it is worth. Personally, I feel that Kleck study is very flawed and does in no way match the reality of crime data that we have. (the numbers are really high) However, even flawed there are some statistics within it that appear correct based upon the small data sample he had.

    Unfortunately when I was in school for Criminal Justice oh so many years ago I had to read case studies like this a lot on different things. ;) So I have come to almost categorically hate them. However it really made me appreciate the direct forwardness when I went through the Law Enforcement Academy! Law enforcement has a long history around the world with layers upon layers of specific skills and techniques built over time. They look at incidents as case studies as well as court rulings to determine policy actions and corrections. People outside of the field can look and learn a lot from this field and the people who work within it!

    Here is one study that Brian King mentioned earlier on police performance that does work and emphasizes regular continuous training. I do not have the full study at hand but you can see a short synopsis here:
    http://www.bioportfolio.com/resourc...rformance-under-anxiety-of-officers-with.html

    Here is a army military study:
    Hand-to-Hand Combat and the Use of Combatives Skills An Analysis of United States Army Post Combat Surveys from 2004-2008
    Anyone interested in BJJ will find this one a good read.

    Would love to see a study by the Marines but I am not aware of one. The MCMAP (Marine Corp Martial Arts Program) is very, very different from the MACP. (Modern Army Combatives Program) One is designed to keep and deal with the enemy at distance and one is designed to close with the enemy.

    Those two studies advocate for continuous training for our police and military!


    Through the course of this thread we have come I believe to the conclusion that a good, viable self defense or personal protection program would have training in Awareness, avoidance, verbal & non-verbal de-escalation skills, tactics, strategy, knowing your local laws regarding protecting yourself, understanding pre-conflict, conflict and post conflict situations, physical skills, post conflict skills to deal with the aftermath, etc.

    jks9199 had a nice paragraph earlier on this:
    As you mentioned before you and I agree on most things!
     
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  14. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Brian, there is certainly crossover. But picture a vin diagram. In some cases, such as for a cop, a bouncer, a security guard or anyone who has a professional likelihood of encountering violence and that crossover area is going to be pretty large. For some, there is a competitive interest in violence, such as MMA fighters.

    For most people, the crossover may still exist, but it is a sliver relative to the actual threat of violence, and is grossly exaggerated in training. There are lots of great reasons to train in martial arts, not the least of which is just a simple desire to be more capable in a violent situation. But if the sales pitch is based on the likelihood of being a victim, that's fear mongering.

    Or maybe to be more clear, and I wish I had 10 minutes to actually create a couple of vin diagrams. You guys, in all of the rhetoric, emphasize how important the "other stuff' is to self defense: deescalation, detection, awareness, common sense, communication, fitness... etc, etc. Many of you have said that any actual, physical altercation is what happens when self defense skills have failed. I agree. Further, we can see looking at crime stats that actual violence against the average person is exceedingly rare. It suggests that area of crossover in training should be modest and proportional.

    So, in the rhetoric, the crossover on a vin diagram of violence and self defense is small. But in the training, it is completely reversed. The "other stuff" gets shunted off to a sliver, and we essentially have two circles that lay almost entirely one on top of the other. Grossly exaggarated.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  15. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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  16. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Steve,

    I would say that many instructors claiming to teach self-defense give lip service to the "other stuff". However, there are a lot of people that do not. Also if you look at a few Reality Based guy's I would absolutely say they do "fear monger" and yet the majority do not that I have met.

    As to violence in general happening to you that also can depend on where you live, how you live your life, what age or gender you are, etc. For some groups there is a stronger likelihood than a "sliver". Also for some groups as has been shown before in the thread there is a large under reporting of violence that happens to them.

    Violence happens Steve, the chance that it happens can be low depending on where you fit in but... it does happen. Some people, who have experienced it do not want to experience it again. Other people never want to experience it. Then there are people who work in and around violence who know they need skill sets to survive. Many of those people seek out professional training to enhance their chances and that is exactly what they are looking for and if that is there goal then that is fine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  17. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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  18. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    But of course I would...everyone's heard of a "Vin diagram.

    vindiagram.jpg
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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  20. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    You guys are SOOO funny! :D

    But maybe a venn (or vin) diagram isn't the best. I was thinking it's really more like this.


    Real Life

    Training
    Chances of being in a situation where verbal skills, awareness, de-escalation techniques, “verbal judo,” emotional intelligence, education on high-risk choices/
    behavior, sexuality or a host of other, non-martial arts related skills would be useful or contribute to keeping someone safe or reducing their risk of becoming "a statistic."
    Time spent in a “self defense” course training to injure, maim or kill a bad guy in a physical altercation or attack.
    Time spent on this in "self defense" trainingRealistic chance of ever needing these skills
    123
     

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