Self Defence AGAINST an officer

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Midnight-shadow, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. Midnight-shadow

    Midnight-shadow Black Belt

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    I'm sure we've all heard of the fiasco regarding the passenger who was forcibly removed from a United Airlines plane, to the point where he was knocked nearly unconscious and dragged down the plane by airport security. For those who don't know about this yet, here's the video of the event:



    Now this brings up an interesting question. If you believe you are being treated unfairly by any kind of law enforcement, or experience violence from an officer, are you allowed to physically defend yourself? For example, let's say for example that when the security guards grabbed that passenger, and the passenger lashed out against them, stopping their advance, what would happen? If it went to court would the passenger have had reasonable grounds to defend themselves? Of course I know it depends on the situation, but if a law enforcement officer or security guard attacked you, could you legally defend yourself from them?

    EDIT: As a side note, I have a friend who is ex-military and suffers from PTSD, to the point where if someone lays a hand on him in a threatening way he will instinctively strike them without warning. It's a completely reflexive action that he has very little control over. I can imagine him being that passenger, and the moment the security guards touched him he would knock them down. How would the courts treat that kind of scenario?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
  2. Paul_D

    Paul_D Master Black Belt

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    I would assume you would need to provide strong evidence to support why you did not follow the officers instructions, in the first place. Which, assuming they were reasonable, would be extremely difficult I imagine.
     
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  3. CB Jones

    CB Jones 3rd Black Belt

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    If they have probable cause to arrest you....then you have added the charge of battery on an officer...which is a felony plus resisting.

    In that situation, the passenger could have been arrested for remaining after forbidden.

    In my opinion, the officers should have instructed him that he was under arrest and if he failed to comply then forcibly removed him and added the charge of resisting.
     
  4. CB Jones

    CB Jones 3rd Black Belt

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    If you feel you are being wronged the best thing to do is comply and handle it through filing complaints and civil court.

    That way if you are wrong you are not adding charges or more problems for yourself.
     
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  5. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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    And in a situation where they either don't have probable cause to arrest you, or you are not resisting, then they starting beating you anyway? Are you still not allowed to defend yourself?
     
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  6. CB Jones

    CB Jones 3rd Black Belt

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    2 separate things

    1st

    It's is possible they do have probable cause and you are incorrect. Better to comply and handle it by complaints and court.

    If you are compliant, and they just begin beating on you then yes you can defend yourself...but that is a little extreme...for officers to all of a sudden without provocation to just begin beating on you.
     
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  7. Midnight-shadow

    Midnight-shadow Black Belt

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    Are airport security allowed to make arrests, or is that right reserved for actual police officers. And unfortunately we live in a world of extremes where the impossible is likely to happen.
     
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  8. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Airport Security cannot make arrests. Airport Police Officers can.
     
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  9. CB Jones

    CB Jones 3rd Black Belt

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    Most large airports have commisioned police with arrest powers
     
  10. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Master Black Belt

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    one word
    ....RAMBO....
     
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  11. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    The answer to that question is difficult. Mainly because anyone is allowed to defend themselves against an unlawful attack, but the question of whether or not the violence being applied is 'unlawful' is a question generally answered in retrospect by a judge and jury.

    I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. My opinion would be that the best path is to comply and leave when asked. You can always seek legal remedy later.

    If you defend yourself against what you believe is an illegal assault by a police officer or security guard and you later find in court that you were mistaken, it can be costly.

    But there's always this...

    The Gracies Break Down How to Defend Yourself from United Airlines
     
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  12. JR 137

    JR 137 Master Black Belt

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    Exactly what I was going to say.

    I didn't watch the video, but in general if you follow the verbal directions you're given, it most likely won't come down to a physical altercation.
     
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  13. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    They asked him to deplane and he refused. I don't think anyone got hit until after that happened.

    And it's really not a question about 'allowed to defend yourself'. You can defend yourself whenever you think it's right to do so. The question is what happens afterwards. The question about probable cause and whether or not you are resisting, etc, will be settled in court AFTER the beatdown.

    When I was in law enforcement, you would not believe the number of people I arrested who insisted that I had no probable cause, etc. They demanded this, they demanded that. OK, fine, if I don't have PC or you are illegally arrested, then we'll figure it out in court. But no, they were all TV talk show attorneys and they knew everything; they would order me to do this and do that. Read me my rights! I get a phone call! Take these cuffs off! I order you! Yeah, no.

    If I put the habeus grabbus on someone, they came along with me. Like it or not. Right or wrong. If they fought back, they got apprehended anyway. If it took more than one of us to secure that person, then that's what happened. There was never a situation where someone put their hand up to me when I was arresting them and I went "Oh, dude, my bad, off you go." Never happens.

    People are funny. They have all kinds of notions about what they can and cannot do or what I can or cannot do. Bottom line; if I decide to put the cuffs on, they're going on. One way or another. There is not going to be a discussion about it. Discussion is for courts.

    I always recommend people do a citizen ride-along with their local cops. Changes notions quickly.
     
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  14. JR 137

    JR 137 Master Black Belt

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    Is TSA police or security? By TSA, I'm (hopefully correctly) referring to the people at the metal detectors, bag x-ray machines, etc.
     
  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    legally its tresspass. Their property. you leave.

    Same as if I drag a guy out of a pub. Or you kick someone out of your house. even if you have paid. You don't get a tresspass exemption.
     
  16. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Neither, actually. They do not have a security team, nor any police officers as part of their agency.
    My guess is, eventually, TSA will have it's own law enforcement unit. I hope so anyway, sure would make my life easier. Especially with folks who show up too drunk to fly. Too drunk to walk in some instances.

    I do not like drunks.
     
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  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Total forcable restraints though?
     
  18. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Not where I am, security can't touch you.
     
  19. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Wow. here the cleaner could arrest you.
     
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