Self Defence AGAINST an officer

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

They asked him to deplane and he refused. I don't think anyone got hit until after that happened.

And it's really not a question about 'allowed to defend yourself'. You can defend yourself whenever you think it's right to do so. The question is what happens afterwards. The question about probable cause and whether or not you are resisting, etc, will be settled in court AFTER the beatdown.

When I was in law enforcement, you would not believe the number of people I arrested who insisted that I had no probable cause, etc. They demanded this, they demanded that. OK, fine, if I don't have PC or you are illegally arrested, then we'll figure it out in court. But no, they were all TV talk show attorneys and they knew everything; they would order me to do this and do that. Read me my rights! I get a phone call! Take these cuffs off! I order you! Yeah, no.

If I put the habeus grabbus on someone, they came along with me. Like it or not. Right or wrong. If they fought back, they got apprehended anyway. If it took more than one of us to secure that person, then that's what happened. There was never a situation where someone put their hand up to me when I was arresting them and I went "Oh, dude, my bad, off you go." Never happens.

People are funny. They have all kinds of notions about what they can and cannot do or what I can or cannot do. Bottom line; if I decide to put the cuffs on, they're going on. One way or another. There is not going to be a discussion about it. Discussion is for courts.

I always recommend people do a citizen ride-along with their local cops. Changes notions quickly.

I'm not suggesting that in the video the person was defending himself/there was no cause. I'm just speaking in generalities.

As for the rest, I know full well that probably 99% of the time the person was resisting/there was probable cause/etc. But, LEOs are people too, and there are some real a*holes that are people. If someone is beating the **** out of you, and they aren't wearing a uniform, they have the opportunity to defend themself. According to what you're saying, if someone is beating the **** out of you, and they are wearing a uniform, you have no opportunity to defend yourself, and just have to get hurt/hospitalized/killed (which does happen), then go to courts later. And chances are the courts will go along with the LEO. That's what I have an issue with.


As for the "Bottom line; if I decide to put the cuffs on, they're going on. One way or another. There is not going to be a discussion about it. Discussion is for courts." I agree with that. But if you come up to me and punch me in the face, throw me on the ground, taze me, etc. that's when I'm going to defend myself.

Regarding "I always recommend people do a citizen ride-along with their local cops. Changes notions quickly." My dad was a police officer for over 20 years. He's had me go on ride alongs in the past. I never witnessed my dad, or his fellow LEO do what I'm referring to. But if one of them did, that's when there would be an issue.

 

[CB Jones]

According to what you're saying, if someone is beating the **** out of you, and they are wearing a uniform, you have no opportunity to defend yourself, and just have to get hurt/hospitalized/killed (which does happen), then go to courts later.

I don't think anyone has said that.

Of course, if Cops just attack you for no reason you can defend yourself. I think most us thought that goes without saying.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If someone is beating the **** out of you, and they aren't wearing a uniform, they have the opportunity to defend themself. According to what you're saying, if someone is beating the **** out of you, and they are wearing a uniform, you have no opportunity to defend yourself, and just have to get hurt/hospitalized/killed (which does happen), then go to courts later. And chances are the courts will go along with the LEO. That's what I have an issue with.

Actually I did not say that and I hope I did not imply that. I have never said I would take a beating just because the person beating me was a police officer.

What I said was that if I was asked to deplane and refused, something like this might happen to me. If I resisted or defended myself, on the grounds that I felt the officer's actions were illegal, then it would be up to the courts to decide who was right and who was wrong. If the courts found against me, I'd be facing some mighty poor choices for my future. Now, I didn't say don't defend yourself. I said consider the outcome and make your decision.

Under no circumstances in the above scenario are you going to defend yourself and then walk away without being arrested. Do you think so? Do you think the cops will understand that you only beat them up because you were defending yourself against an unlawful arrest? This is the real world, that will not happen. You will be arrested. Whether it takes one cop or twenty, if it is decided that you are coming off the plane, you're coming off the plane.

As for the "Bottom line; if I decide to put the cuffs on, they're going on. One way or another. There is not going to be a discussion about it. Discussion is for courts." I agree with that. But if you come up to me and punch me in the face, throw me on the ground, taze me, etc. that's when I'm going to defend myself.

That is for you to decide, and I understand your feeling. I am stating facts - if you defend yourself, right or wrong, you're going to lose.

Regarding "I always recommend people do a citizen ride-along with their local cops. Changes notions quickly." My dad was a police officer for over 20 years. He's had me go on ride alongs in the past. I never witnessed my dad, or his fellow LEO do what I'm referring to. But if one of them did, that's when there would be an issue.

So maybe it doesn't happen that cops just take it into their heads to start beating people up for no reason very often. That seems like a possibility.

 

[Steve]

Steve, instead of arguing politics and we agree to disagree on whether he was wrong or right.

And simply agree that if you choose not to comply you run the risk of additional charges and/or problems. And that is a decision each must make for themselves.

I'm not arguing politics. I am trying to point out that complying with the cops isn't always in ones best interest. Usually? Maybe. But always? Nope.

It seems to me that this thfead isn't well served by recommending blind compliance.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

"I recommend blind obedience to authority."

Words not spoken by myself or anyone in this thread that I've seen.

My opinion - and it is just an opinion - is this. Based on the escalation of the incident, the doctor would have been better served by getting off the plane when asked. Note that this is before any beating was administered. He would not be national news, the 'problem' assuming there is one in United's CoC would not have been highlighted, and he certainly would not have a high-powered lawyer offering to sue everyone on his behalf. But he'd have been compensated and would have gotten another flight. The fact that he's a doctor and needed to be on the flight is certainly an issue. But lots of things can affect airline travel. Weather, traffic on the way to the airport, a forgotten nail clipper in a carry on bag, bad directions, a failed alarm clock, you name it. Stuff happens. One does what one can.

What did NOT happen in this incident is that the police or security guards simply boarded the plane, picked out an asian dude, and started whupping up on him. HAD THAT HAPPENED, I would be the first to suggest he should have defended himself.

As far as I can tell, some people are intentionally conflating the notion of deplaning PRIOR to the beatdown with some kind of generic submission to authority which includes simply putting up with random strangers whupping up on a person, which NOBODY has said anyone should do.

Escalation:
1) We're overbooked, looking for volunteers, here's some money. Nope, not taking it.
2) Still overbooked, still looking for volunteers, here's even more money. Nope, not taking it.
3) Still overbooked, if we don't get any volunteers, we're going to pick some people at random.
4) Still overbooked, we've picked out four people, please get off the plane. 3 people get off the plane, one guy refuses.
5) Security guards tell guy to get off plane. Guy refuses. <--- THIS IS WHERE HE SHOULD HAVE CHOSEN TO EXIT
6) Security guards drag him off the plane, hurting him along the way. <--- THIS DID NOT HAPPEN IN A VACUUM, SEE ABOVE ESCALATION

If Joe Schmoe walks up to me and starts swinging, badge or not, I'm going to defend myself. I think anyone with a brain should do so. If Joe Schmoe with a badge walks up to me and tells me to absquatulate, I may refuse, at least at first, but if he tells me I'm going to go squat elsewhere, whether or not I like it, and three other dudes with badges join in telling me that, perhaps it is time to reevaluate my machismo versus my very expensive new teeth and decide that discretion is the better part of valor.

Just a thought.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't think anyone has said that.

Of course, if Cops just attack you for no reason you can defend yourself. I think most us thought that goes without saying.

Actually I did not say that and I hope I did not imply that. I have never said I would take a beating just because the person beating me was a police officer.

I didn't assume either of you were saying that. That's what i was suggesting in my initial post...that in the particular situation of a police officer attacking me for no reason I think you should be able to defend myself. I gathered from the responses that I didn't make that clear, so I tried to clarify it.

So maybe it doesn't happen that cops just take it into their heads to start beating people up for no reason very often. That seems like a possibility.

I absolutely agree with this. But the very often means that it does happen, no matter how rarely. Most cops wouldn't, but suggesting no cop would is making a blind generalization about cops. In the situation were the cop is the type of person that would/is doing that is the situation in which I would be defending myself. I highly doubt I will ever be in that situation, luckily.

 

[drop bear]

I don't think anyone has said that.

Of course, if Cops just attack you for no reason you can defend yourself. I think most us thought that goes without saying.

Yeah. But even then. They have guns. It is a big risk.

Even if you are justifiably restraining a cop and another one comes around the corner. You are going to get bashed.

I would still feotal up and ride it out.

 

[Steve]

And now it is revealed that the flight was overbooked.

 

[jobo]

And now it is revealed that the flight was overbooked.

well that's debatable, it was overbooked, but they got rid of some passengers at the gate, so there were enough seat for all the passengers, but then more passengers who worked for the air line arrived, and they wanted room for them, as they didn't have tickets, its hard to say it was over booked

 

[CB Jones]

Yeah. But even then. They have guns. It is a big risk.

Even if you are justifiably restraining a cop and another one comes around the corner. You are going to get bashed.

I would still feotal up and ride it out.

You have a point.

Its kinda like what Ron White said, "I didn't know how many it would take to whoop my a**, but I knew how many they would use."

 

[Steve]

well that's debatable, it was overbooked, but they got rid of some passengers at the gate, so there were enough seat for all the passengers, but then more passengers who worked for the air line arrived, and they wanted room for them, as they didn't have tickets, its hard to say it was over booked

Err... no. Not debatable. United now admits that the flight was neither oversold nor overbooked. It was full. full is not overbooked or oversold.

United says Flight 3411 wasn't overbooked. It just had no open seats left

 

[Steve]

To the point of the thread, the best self defense when you're on the wrong side of a cop is a camera and hopefully some witnesses. That's about your only protection against abuse of authority, if that is occurring.

 

[Buka]

I have a couple of thoughts. I'm a person first, a Martial Artist second, and a cop after that. I do not let what I do for a living define who I am. I wasn't there (Chicago, was it?) I only saw and read what everyone else did. As I said, it's not how I would have handled it. Speaking from experience, I've escorted people off of planes before. Never had a problem. Probably because I have good verbal skills and can be incredibly charming.

Also, where I work, we don't take orders from airlines. But as anyone who has been in the military, or law enforcement, know, they are rank and file systems. Your superior officer gives you an order, you go do that task in the lawful manner in which you are trained (within reason, I hope that goes without saying, nobody if going to slaughter villages because you were ordered to) HOW you do that task might depend on your level of skill regarding that particular task.

As for police, hard to generalize, at least for me. I've spent a lot of time in L.A over the years. But I stopped going, despite having a great gig. I won't go there any more. Not because of the gangs, like the Crips, who I've done some work with, but because of the LAPD. I don't ever want to be around any of them. Yes, I know, there's good people on that force, good, honest, hard working public servants.(there must be) And my heart goes out to them. But I will never again be in that city with that force policing it. I went there last July, on my way here, but it was to say good bye to my good friend, Dorothy, who is 94 years old. I knew I'd never see her again if I didn't stop that time. And the whole time there, I kept looking over my shoulder for you know who - LAPD. (I know too many people in L.A, professional people, who feel the same way.) I nearly got shot there in 94 for committing a crime I didn't know I was committing. I jaywalked. (yes, shot) Look, I'm a cop, I don't exaggerate about things like this. And I have witnessed other incidents, far too many of them to dismiss.

Back to the United flight thing. They didn't handle that well. (gee, ya think?) But the gut feeling I have is - Doctor Douche is just that. And the guys that took him off that plane are also the exact same thing. Doesn't make it right, just saying.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm sure we've all heard of the fiasco regarding the passenger who was forcibly removed from a United Airlines plane, to the point where he was knocked nearly unconscious and dragged down the plane by airport security. For those who don't know about this yet, here's the video of the event:

Now this brings up an interesting question. If you believe you are being treated unfairly by any kind of law enforcement, or experience violence from an officer, are you allowed to physically defend yourself? For example, let's say for example that when the security guards grabbed that passenger, and the passenger lashed out against them, stopping their advance, what would happen? If it went to court would the passenger have had reasonable grounds to defend themselves? Of course I know it depends on the situation, but if a law enforcement officer or security guard attacked you, could you legally defend yourself from them?

EDIT: As a side note, I have a friend who is ex-military and suffers from PTSD, to the point where if someone lays a hand on him in a threatening way he will instinctively strike them without warning. It's a completely reflexive action that he has very little control over. I can imagine him being that passenger, and the moment the security guards touched him he would knock them down. How would the courts treat that kind of scenario?

I haven't read many of the other posts yet. but "Defending yourself" is more than just attacking. A person can defend themselves against police by doing what you can to prevent your head from hitting objects, by using words to help diffuse or calm the situation, or even by making a scene "yelling" to attract the attention to others. People who are near become witnesses.

I wold never recommend to physically attack a police officer as a for of self-defense. It'll not only weaken your court case, but it will also decrease your safety. Keep in mind that police carry guns and other equipment. So the best defense that you'll have are the ones that will minimize your risks for injury. As for the guy on the plane, he did a good job in acting "the screaming part" and he'll get a big payday for having 2 front teeth, a broken nose, and a concussion. The other day I heard on the news that he agreed to be kicked off the flight and then changed his mind. Does that warrant the abuse, nope. But it will set up the reason for why the airline was trying to get him off the plan. It's unknown if the guy communicated with the airport that he changed his mind.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

"I recommend blind obedience to authority."

Words not spoken by myself or anyone in this thread that I've seen.

My opinion - and it is just an opinion - is this. Based on the escalation of the incident, the doctor would have been better served by getting off the plane when asked. Note that this is before any beating was administered. He would not be national news, the 'problem' assuming there is one in United's CoC would not have been highlighted, and he certainly would not have a high-powered lawyer offering to sue everyone on his behalf. But he'd have been compensated and would have gotten another flight. The fact that he's a doctor and needed to be on the flight is certainly an issue. But lots of things can affect airline travel. Weather, traffic on the way to the airport, a forgotten nail clipper in a carry on bag, bad directions, a failed alarm clock, you name it. Stuff happens. One does what one can.

What did NOT happen in this incident is that the police or security guards simply boarded the plane, picked out an asian dude, and started whupping up on him. HAD THAT HAPPENED, I would be the first to suggest he should have defended himself.

As far as I can tell, some people are intentionally conflating the notion of deplaning PRIOR to the beatdown with some kind of generic submission to authority which includes simply putting up with random strangers whupping up on a person, which NOBODY has said anyone should do.

Escalation:
1) We're overbooked, looking for volunteers, here's some money. Nope, not taking it.
2) Still overbooked, still looking for volunteers, here's even more money. Nope, not taking it.
3) Still overbooked, if we don't get any volunteers, we're going to pick some people at random.
4) Still overbooked, we've picked out four people, please get off the plane. 3 people get off the plane, one guy refuses.
5) Security guards tell guy to get off plane. Guy refuses. <--- THIS IS WHERE HE SHOULD HAVE CHOSEN TO EXIT
6) Security guards drag him off the plane, hurting him along the way. <--- THIS DID NOT HAPPEN IN A VACUUM, SEE ABOVE ESCALATION

If Joe Schmoe walks up to me and starts swinging, badge or not, I'm going to defend myself. I think anyone with a brain should do so. If Joe Schmoe with a badge walks up to me and tells me to absquatulate, I may refuse, at least at first, but if he tells me I'm going to go squat elsewhere, whether or not I like it, and three other dudes with badges join in telling me that, perhaps it is time to reevaluate my machismo versus my very expensive new teeth and decide that discretion is the better part of valor.

Just a thought.

You know, reading all this I'd be very interested to know exactly what was said to the passenger prior to the guards grabbing him. For example, did the guards tell the passenger that they would remove him by force if he didn't comply, or did they just grab him the first time he refused. I guess we'll never know, but hearing the conversation leading up to the incident might explain a few things.

 

[CB Jones]

You know, reading all this I'd be very interested to know exactly what was said to the passenger prior to the guards grabbing him. For example, did the guards tell the passenger that they would remove him by force if he didn't comply, or did they just grab him the first time he refused. I guess we'll never know, but hearing the conversation leading up to the incident might explain a few things.

Initial news reports said two officers instructed him nicely to get up and leave a couple times and he refused. Then the third grabbed him and the tussle began.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In my day, we followed these simple rules:
1 Ask 'em.
2 Tell 'em.
3 Take 'em.

There's no room for endless argument and bickering. Be nice, be professional. Ask them to please leave. If they refuse, tell them they must leave and explain that they will be taken by force if they refuse. Then lay hands on them and compel them to exit.

If you let them egage you in explaining and arguments and etc, it will never end. Ever.

I pulled a Marine lieutenant out the broken window of his Corvette once. Asked him to get out, he refused. Told him to get out, he rolled up his window. Busted his window with my mag lite, hauled his sorry *** out through the window, and applied the hand irons after a short wrestling match. Yes, he got mussed up some.

When I say get out of the car, you are getting out of the car. Your choice how that happens, but it's going to happen.

Ah, memories.

 

[Steve]

In my day, we followed these simple rules:
1 Ask 'em.
2 Tell 'em.
3 Take 'em.

There's no room for endless argument and bickering. Be nice, be professional. Ask them to please leave. If they refuse, tell them they must leave and explain that they will be taken by force if they refuse. Then lay hands on them and compel them to exit.

If you let them egage you in explaining and arguments and etc, it will never end. Ever.

I pulled a Marine lieutenant out the broken window of his Corvette once. Asked him to get out, he refused. Told him to get out, he rolled up his window. Busted his window with my mag lite, hauled his sorry *** out through the window, and applied the hand irons after a short wrestling match. Yes, he got mussed up some.

When I say get out of the car, you are getting out of the car. Your choice how that happens, but it's going to happen.

Ah, memories.

In the civilian world, this sounds like a very short sighted and ill conceived rule. We don't live in a police state and most people in this country don't want to. This is an example of the kind of policing most cities are trying to move away from.

But yeah, there are cops who will escalate situations like this, and this thread is supposed to be about what to do when you're the victim.

We can all presume that the cops on this forum are exemplary. But not all are. Just as we can presume, I hope, that the people on this forum are not violent criminals. If we can have a discussion about the extremely unlikely possibility that we will be mugged, I think we should be able to have a discussion about the unlikely possibility that we will be victims of a frightened, incompetent, or dishonest cop who is abusing or misusing his or her authority.

In the real world, the only thing I can think of is presence of witnesses who hopefully have their phones out.police cameras work sometimes, too, such as dash cams or body cameras. But that's after the fact. You might already be a news story..

 

[CB Jones]

In the civilian world, this sounds like a very short sighted and ill conceived rule. We don't live in a police state and most people in this country don't want to. This is an example of the kind of policing most cities are trying to move away from.

But yeah, there are cops who will escalate situations like this, and this thread is supposed to be about what to do when you're the victim.

We can all presume that the cops on this forum are exemplary. But not all are. Just as we can presume, I hope, that the people on this forum are not violent criminals. If we can have a discussion about the extremely unlikely possibility that we will be mugged, I think we should be able to have a discussion about the unlikely possibility that we will be victims of a frightened, incompetent, or dishonest cop who is abusing or misusing his or her authority.

In the real world, the only thing I can think of is presence of witnesses who hopefully have their phones out.police cameras work sometimes, too, such as dash cams or body cameras. But that's after the fact. You might already be a news story..

Actually....in the real world how Bill described is correct.

Spending too much time explaining or arguing is how people (officers and civilians) get hurt.

Ask...tell...and then restrain and force. The longer you explain and argue....the more chance the guy decides to fight or worse pull a weapon.

At swiftly and you minimize fighting and lethal force actions.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Only people arguing that the guy in the united flight was in the wrong are cops and former cops.

Am I the only one who finds that odd?

If the doctor volunteered to get off the flight and then decided not to then he was wrong. The people who had to take him off the plane were poorly trained for that scenario. The good news is that new training is going to be on the horizon. At the moment there isn't enough information to say who WA in the wrong. I do however think that there is a better option than having 2 front teeth knocked out, a broken nose, a concussion, reconstructive surgery, a lawsuit, and bad PR. It would have been cheaper to just ask if someone else could take another flight. In return the airline could have sweeten the deal by giving the new volunteer a free flight by refunding the cost of the ticket and maybe adding some coupons that don't expire. Or even giving a $200 inconvenience check would have been cheaper.