Punches vs Open hand to face for self defense.

[K-man]

Your understanding is incorrect. The entire system of Isshin-Ryu uses no torquing punches - intentionally. The founder experimented with them briefly after being pressured by other masters on Okinawa, but returned to the fist formation and punching method he developed for his system. No one - and I mean no one - accuses Isshin-Ryu karateka of not punching hard.

And we can also throw a one-inch punch with great power. No torque required. The hip, the knees, the back, and the shoulders all contribute to good body mechanics, which increase leverage to deliver a powerful punch. Twisting the fist at the point of impact does not impart power to the forward momentum of the punch. A drill bit turning does not increase the downward pressure applied by the drill.

The only punch we throw in which the fist turns is the uppercut, and that is not a 'torque' but rather a block incorporated into a punch. Which you would know if you were familiar with Isshin-Ryu as you claimed.

I'm not sure you can blame the Okinawans. I started with Goju Kai (Japanese) who taught the twisting motion. Changing to the Okinawan form of Goju gives you a 'neutral' fist which is not exactly vertical but where the fist is naturally positioned if you extend your arm out from carriage with your elbow pointing down.

Personally, I have taught Tate tsuki (vertical fist) all along and the one inch punch is also a staple of the Okinawans. The power of their short punches is hip generated like the WC punch that is often described. For me, the angle of the fist changes slightly depending on where the trajectory is taking it toward the target, if that makes sense. I was shown that in the small amount of Systema that I have trained.

My theory on the twist punch is that if you were using a one knuckle punch to the ribs, the twisting motion could give rib separation and greater damage.
:asian:

 

[Zenjael]

My theory on the twist punch is that if you were using a one knuckle punch to the ribs, the twisting motion could give rib separation and greater damage.
:asian:

Very smart posting. Thank you for it.

 

[K-man]

Torque CAN inhibit a strike if you torque into the direction you are striking in. If you torque into the direction of your strike, it can add energy. In my understanding, and execution of the party-trick one inch punch, the torque of the wrist is enough to move the other.

Alex, the one inch punch is not a party trick. If your video is an indication of the way you fight then you would have no need to use it. If you are engaged at close range, the short punch is what you have available. Often this could be from one inch although often you may have a little more. The one inch punch is normally a vertical fist. There is no torque involved.

It is a short torque I seek when utilizing the movement, and adding it to where I already intend to strike. If you over-torque and go too far you'll not only have a conflict of forces, ull completely redirect the energy you're intending to impact. In short, you can deflect your own strike.

????

If you over torque you could even do a side summersault! IMHO what you are describing will reduce the power of your strike, not increase it.

Not untrue. Many martial styles make more use of the hip to generate force as opposed to those which emphasize wrist, or elbow maneuvers. But at that point it is the hips doing exactly what my wrist does... and I also use my hips when I strike. You need to whole body behind your fist, from the wrist, to the elbow, to the shoulder, to the head orientation, to the back alignment, to the hips, knees, and ankles.

Your understanding, here is so far from the truth that I find it impossible to believe you use your hips to generate power. What you are describing is power developed by turning your torso and although that includes the hips, it is not generated from the hips. The Okinawans use the same power generation that you find in Bagua. Once again from your video you would not have an opportunity to use your hips as you are nowhere near your opponent. Bio mechanically you are using your hips to make distance and you can't do both at once. The whole body and orientation bit is just not part of the hip generated punch. It is what you do with punches taught statically in basic karate classes but is not relevant in a fight. In a fight you punch from the position your find yourself in, even if you are on one foot.

When I fight people who's guards I can't get through, I beat on their arms, hitting any pressure point I can, until their arms falter. I'll punch the elbow every time they go to punch, and overwhelm.

Forgive me for saying, that is crap. By the time you have hit the arms of someone who can fight until they falter you will have been wiped of the floor. To do what you claim to be able to do you would have to be inside their range and once again judging on your size and your video that just isn't going to happen. Besides that, striking the points on the outsides of the of the arms of someone who has their arms in a defensive pose will be unlikely to have the effect you describe. I have allowed a so called expert to hit my arms in this manner with absolutely no response. I then get referred to as an example of a 'non-responder' but I prefer to think of it as a technique that will probably fail under pressure.

But that only works if you develop the force of your strike, and to us, we used any reason to develop arm strength. When we did our push-ups it was only on the front knuckles or on finger-tips, with legs crossed and backs flat. I have to say that I noticed a strong correlation between those who could crank them out the fastest, and the heaviest hitters using the arms. Which frankly, given your statement of my teacher not knowing what he spoke of, makes me think you in turn do not.

Arm strength has very little to do with punching power. I'm with MJS on this one.

Sorry Alex. I have to disagree with most of your comments. :asian:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm not sure you can blame the Okinawans. I started with Goju Kai (Japanese) who taught the twisting motion. Changing to the Okinawan form of Goju gives you a 'neutral' fist which is not exactly vertical but where the fist is naturally positioned if you extend your arm out from carriage with your elbow pointing down.

Personally, I have taught Tate tsuki (vertical fist) all along and the one inch punch is also a staple of the Okinawans. The power of their short punches is hip generated like the WC punch that is often described. For me, the angle of the fist changes slightly depending on where the trajectory is taking it toward the target, if that makes sense. I was shown that in the small amount of Systema that I have trained.

My theory on the twist punch is that if you were using a one knuckle punch to the ribs, the twisting motion could give rib separation and greater damage.
:asian:

The vertical fist of Isshin-Ryu is vertical only in certain applications; as you noted, we apply it 'where it fits'. That is, when punching down to a hip to unbalance someone, the fist naturally fits into the hip in a different orientation. Same for a jaw, for example. However, the primary configuration is vertical.

I do not know and therefore cannot comment on twisting an ichi knuckle stike to the ribs. It certainly sounds plausible, but I've never been shown it or tried it. I have had a rib seriously bruised by an Isshin-Ryu black belt in NC who stuck one into me during light (but non-padded) sparring in their dojo; it hurt to breathe or cough or move for weeks. No twist was required and the hit wasn't even that hard. Frankly, an ichi-knuckle rake down the ribs is quite painful; one need not even apply much pressure in the form of a punch to get an immediate result on anyone who responds to pain (drunks and druggies may not).

As an aside, I have been taught that Shimabuku Soke chose the vertical fist because he studied how other ryu's fought; even in styles that use a torquing punch, he noted that in kumite they did not; they used a vertical fist for punching in most circumstances. He believed (again, as I have been taught) that the vertical fist was a more natural alignment and taught it that way. We perform Sanchin kata with a torquing punch when we perform it in the UIKA as a tribute to the Goju-Ryu style from which Soke learned (he also learned from Shorin-Ryu).

 

[Dirty Dog]

[head explodes]

[MONTY PYTHON]It's only a flesh wound...[/MONTY PYTHON]

 

[MJS]

I would concur, it is location over force. But force is integral if those vitals are not opened much. What will you do when you finally fight someone who you can't hit in the vitals, and your blows haven't been developed to carve them up. When I fight people who's guards I can't get through, I beat on their arms, hitting any pressure point I can, until their arms falter. I'll punch the elbow every time they go to punch, and overwhelm.

And if a target that we want to hit, isnt open or available at that moment, we simply do something to open it up. Come on man, this is basics 101. Even the Gracies do it. They're thinking multiple moves ahead. You simply set the person up, so you can get the opening you want.

But that only works if you develop the force of your strike, and to us, we used any reason to develop arm strength. When we did our push-ups it was only on the front knuckles or on finger-tips, with legs crossed and backs flat. I have to say that I noticed a strong correlation between those who could crank them out the fastest, and the heaviest hitters using the arms. Which frankly, given your statement of my teacher not knowing what he spoke of, makes me think you in turn do not.

LMAO! Dude, I've been training longer than you've been breathing. Trust me, I've done, and still do, push-ups all the time, and yes, I do them on my knuckles too. My point was simply...not everything requires massive amounts of strength. Striking the arms...sure, I've done it, I've had people do it to me, during fighting. Of course, thats not all I do to open a target, and I'd like to think thats not all you do either.

What it seems to me, is that you're falling into the typical cult like mentality of some martial artists. They seem to blindly follow, word for word, every single thing their teacher tells them, totally disregarding all other advice. Hell, as proof that you're doing that, just take a peek at all of the threads here, which involve you, where we see many people giving advice, saying that certain things that you're saying are wrong, etc, yet you disregard them. Oh well....

Your statement was that one needs to do lots of pushups in order to get that KO power. I was proving to you that its not all about that, but more of the location of the strike.

 

[seasoned]

I feel that when the full twisting punch is taught to white belts they have a tendency to let their elbow point out more then down, at full extension.

The full twisting punch also helps to lock down the body structure. The important part of the full twist is to end up with the elbow pointing down at full extension. Also a bad habit from to much sparring is to extend that punch to far out, destabilizing the shoulder structure. IMO of course.

 

[Zenjael]

And if a target that we want to hit, isnt open or available at that moment, we simply do something to open it up. Come on man, this is basics 101. Even the Gracies do it. They're thinking multiple moves ahead. You simply set the person up, so you can get the opening you want.

A nice reply... but it ignores my question completely. I did not ask how you would open their stance to increase vulnerability, that is common sense. I asked what you would do when you COULD NOT. You did nothing to answer that, and are answering a question I don't think I asked, or care to have an answer about. Frankly because what you're saying is as obvious as saying the sun would set. Of course you open or lead when they have an impenetrable guard. That wasn't the question though.

LMAO! Dude, I've been training longer than you've been breathing. Trust me, I've done, and still do, push-ups all the time, and yes, I do them on my knuckles too. My point was simply...not everything requires massive amounts of strength. Striking the arms...sure, I've done it, I've had people do it to me, during fighting. Of course, thats not all I do to open a target, and I'd like to think thats not all you do either.

Naturally. I would agree with you that location is even more important than the power generated. Hence how feeble blows to a temple or upper arm or lower neck can leave people dazed for hours with minimal force. I think we've all felt it when someone just taps us on the head, to demonstrate internal workings, and felt themselves go limp from the blow, which could hardly be called that. And naturally, there are a plethora of ways, as I'd like to think all martial artists know, in how to open a guard. Where it gets really interesting is parrying with the very skilled, and the mindgames that tend to develop.

What it seems to me, is that you're falling into the typical cult like mentality of some martial artists. They seem to blindly follow, word for word, every single thing their teacher tells them, totally disregarding all other advice. Hell, as proof that you're doing that, just take a peek at all of the threads here, which involve you, where we see many people giving advice, saying that certain things that you're saying are wrong, etc, yet you disregard them. Oh well....

And we can also, going over those same threads, see where I do and acquiesce that. You can also see how many give me erroneous advice, ignorant of my own styles and background. I defend what should be, in regards to myself, and I do not where I am wrong. You will see me admit my errs time and time and time again, but I am not the kind of person to blindly follow in cult worship. I have a few masters, and individuals I respect greatly, because they have proven themselves to be people worthy of that respect. I have trained under masters I eventually left because I lost faith in their ability to teach, and my own abilities to be developed under their guidance.

If a person gives me something conducive which I can add to my own strategies in the ring, I happily use them, and give credit. But I've yet to see this, apart from Oaktree. I find his insights toward Bagua very effective. But then again, he is also blessed with a wonderful teacher, who is still alive as well.

[/QUOTE]Your statement was that one needs to do lots of pushups in order to get that KO power. I was proving to you that its not all about that, but more of the location of the strike.[/QUOTE]

My apologies for not being clearer; my stance is not that push-ups blanket give you a KO, and a KO might need even be the desired result. Putting them down, at Khans, related more toward beating a person down until their will to fight was finished. It wasn't about winning the fight, but about all the fights to come as well, in that one fight. Push-ups will suffice for that, but I would advise getting a heavy bag, and somebody reallllllly big who can take blows.

I can recall working with one individual of zulu descent who no matter how many cinderblocks I could break, my punches to the midsection hardly phased. Huge guy, over 7 feet, so I was happy when we traded punches to the midsection and eventually I was able to make him wince. That being said, his punches floored the hell out of me. But then again, I recall his hands being easily as big as my head. Dude was a giant.

And... Who knows when Shaq might decide to mug you.:ultracool

Sorry Alex. I have to disagree with most of your comments. :asian:

That is your prerogative.

Alex, the one inch punch is not a party trick. If your video is an indication of the way you fight then you would have no need to use it. If you are engaged at close range, the short punch is what you have available. Often this could be from one inch although often you may have a little more. The one inch punch is normally a vertical fist. There is no torque involved.

Maybe where you train it isn't, but in this area, I think almost every martial artist I know, underbelt and black belt can perform the 'one inch punch' to considerable degree. You can do it with a horizontal or vertical oriented fist, I've seen both, and neither seemed to produce more push than the other. I'm not sure where you would think the application isn't useful to me, though I will be quite honest in my statement that if you get close range, the person had better be prepared to deal with elbows and knees. Ionno why in close range you'd go for a punch when there are far more useful techniques at your disposal given the range. Granted, this is why the 'one-inch' comes in handy, but... why do a party trick when you can slam them to the neck with your elbows? It seems like underkill to do a one-inch punch, where you could easily use your hips to generate a solid elbow blow.

Your understanding, here is so far from the truth that I find it impossible to believe you use your hips to generate power. What you are describing is power developed by turning your torso and although that includes the hips, it is not generated from the hips. The Okinawans use the same power generation that you find in Bagua. Once again from your video you would not have an opportunity to use your hips as you are nowhere near your opponent. Bio mechanically you are using your hips to make distance and you can't do both at once. The whole body and orientation bit is just not part of the hip generated punch. It is what you do with punches taught statically in basic karate classes but is not relevant in a fight. In a fight you punch from the position your find yourself in, even if you are on one foot.

Okinawans focus on redirection of the opponent as opposed to their own energy generation? This is news to me. I would not say Okinawans generate the same force as Bagua, I would say that about Aikido however. I suppose our views are diametrically opposed however. I am not sure what kind of fights you've been in, but those sound more like the brawls you'll see in the video I posted, or the security officer you can watch a video in. While it is true, you can throw a punch from one foot, I can't imagine a self-defense situation where a person would do this. Chances are I'm not using my purty kicks to do anything but kick them in the neck, head, or groin, and sweeps.

There are multiple occasions in the video where you can see with each strike rotation on the hip. Granted, not all the strikes are like this, but you can see quite a few certainly in how Alec is operating.

Forgive me for saying, that is crap. By the time you have hit the arms of someone who can fight until they falter you will have been wiped of the floor. To do what you claim to be able to do you would have to be inside their range and once again judging on your size and your video that just isn't going to happen. Besides that, striking the points on the outsides of the of the arms of someone who has their arms in a defensive pose will be unlikely to have the effect you describe. I have allowed a so called expert to hit my arms in this manner with absolutely no response. I then get referred to as an example of a 'non-responder' but I prefer to think of it as a technique that will probably fail under pressure.

My small size gives me awesome advantage for getting through guards. There are people who are 'non-responders', but this seems more likely inaccuracy in applying the technique. I think all techniques fail under pressure... if used incorrectly. If I'm going to strike their arms, the tactics switch- I stay out of range, always. The nice thing about TKD, and Kendo, is gaining the ability to back up and just never get tired of kicking. I've run laps backwards doing this, and could probably back up till the end of time, circling, and just kicking. Most people after several minutes just five up- it's not worth the cardio it requires to sprint and punch, which most aren't used to.

Staying out of range, and hitting the surface, their arms, is not hard to do. It is time consuming, and inadvisable in a situation involving multiples.

But then again, I don't understand why in a serious fight why you'd go for a tactic of striking the arms. Credit card, kick their shins in, their knees, elbows, and throat.

A tactic I enjoy is stepping on a persons foot. They can't go anywhere and it gives me a height advantage at times, which you wouldn't think such a big deal, but can be.

It amazing how often a well placed hand can jam any advance. It's also amazing how often people leave it out and dont expect it to be grabbed, or they thrown.

The trick is to know when to use things where. If I hit a person in the same place 3 times on the arms, and there is not even the tiniest lowering... i'd abandon the tactic against them. You modify everything as you go, per the individual. I'd switch to false openings, and maybe switch to striking them at the joints, lightly.

We should probably make distinction between sparring, and survival though. We did 5 on 5's today, and the first half hour was practical self-defense. The second half hour in our second hour was spent what id call continuous non-point sparring.

 

[Tez3]

Oh good grief. :hb:

 

[MJS]

A nice reply... but it ignores my question completely. I did not ask how you would open their stance to increase vulnerability, that is common sense. I asked what you would do when you COULD NOT. You did nothing to answer that, and are answering a question I don't think I asked, or care to have an answer about. Frankly because what you're saying is as obvious as saying the sun would set. Of course you open or lead when they have an impenetrable guard. That wasn't the question though.

Here is what you said:

"I would concur, it is location over force. But force is integral if those vitals are not opened much. What will you do when you finally fight someone who you can't hit in the vitals, and your blows haven't been developed to carve them up. When I fight people who's guards I can't get through, I beat on their arms, hitting any pressure point I can, until their arms falter. I'll punch the elbow every time they go to punch, and overwhelm."


Your claim that you'd hit the arms, while a good idea, proved to not be as good as you claim. I believe it was K-Man you went into more detail. I agree with what he said. I mean really...do you honestly think that someone is just going to stand there and allow you to hit their arms repeatedly, and not do anything to you? LOL! Instead of doing that, thats why I said its basics 101. Don't keep doing the same thing over and over and over. Do something else, to set up the goal that you really want to reach. And if its that obvious to you, then you wouldnt have said something to crazy. LOL!

Naturally. I would agree with you that location is even more important than the power generated. Hence how feeble blows to a temple or upper arm or lower neck can leave people dazed for hours with minimal force. I think we've all felt it when someone just taps us on the head, to demonstrate internal workings, and felt themselves go limp from the blow, which could hardly be called that. And naturally, there are a plethora of ways, as I'd like to think all martial artists know, in how to open a guard. Where it gets really interesting is parrying with the very skilled, and the mindgames that tend to develop.

Temple, neck, sure I can agree with that. Upper arm, been hit there many times. I didn't get KOd, go limp, nothing. Furthermore, your saying 'tap on the head' leads me to believe you missed my point. Not just any spot on the head, but particular areas, in conjunction with others, to get the KO. Pressure point study is not something that can be learned overnight Alex.

And we can also, going over those same threads, see where I do and acquiesce that. You can also see how many give me erroneous advice, ignorant of my own styles and background. I defend what should be, in regards to myself, and I do not where I am wrong. You will see me admit my errs time and time and time again, but I am not the kind of person to blindly follow in cult worship. I have a few masters, and individuals I respect greatly, because they have proven themselves to be people worthy of that respect. I have trained under masters I eventually left because I lost faith in their ability to teach, and my own abilities to be developed under their guidance.

If a person gives me something conducive which I can add to my own strategies in the ring, I happily use them, and give credit. But I've yet to see this, apart from Oaktree. I find his insights toward Bagua very effective. But then again, he is also blessed with a wonderful teacher, who is still alive as well.

You've yet to see the good advice? Gee, I think I've given you some damn good advice, as well as others. Sadly, in your case, it comes down to you not hearing what YOU want to hear. People give you advice, and you claim to accept it, then go right back to posting the same foolish things you posted before. I've commented to you on some things you've said regarding kicking. You come back with a claim to counter what I said, rather than think about what I've said. You make yourself sound like you're privy to some special secrets. I highly doubt it. A good portion of what you've said, many of us have already seen, thus why you get so many replies telling you youre wrong, but YOU dont want to hear or accept that.

Maybe where you train it isn't, but in this area, I think almost every martial artist I know, underbelt and black belt can perform the 'one inch punch' to considerable degree. You can do it with a horizontal or vertical oriented fist, I've seen both, and neither seemed to produce more push than the other. I'm not sure where you would think the application isn't useful to me, though I will be quite honest in my statement that if you get close range, the person had better be prepared to deal with elbows and knees. Ionno why in close range you'd go for a punch when there are far more useful techniques at your disposal given the range. Granted, this is why the 'one-inch' comes in handy, but... why do a party trick when you can slam them to the neck with your elbows? It seems like underkill to do a one-inch punch, where you could easily use your hips to generate a solid elbow blow.

Anyone can stand 1in. away and punch. But its the end result that only a few...those who really understand it, that makes all the difference in the world. See, you're doing it again....making yourself sound like an expert in everything. Then you wonder why you get the replies that you do. You claim its a party trick. Why? Because you dont understand it, you cant do it, and those that have tried it with you, dont know how to do it either.

 

[MJS]

My small size gives me awesome advantage for getting through guards. There are people who are 'non-responders', but this seems more likely inaccuracy in applying the technique. I think all techniques fail under pressure... if used incorrectly. If I'm going to strike their arms, the tactics switch- I stay out of range, always. The nice thing about TKD, and Kendo, is gaining the ability to back up and just never get tired of kicking. I've run laps backwards doing this, and could probably back up till the end of time, circling, and just kicking. Most people after several minutes just five up- it's not worth the cardio it requires to sprint and punch, which most aren't used to.

Staying out of range, and hitting the surface, their arms, is not hard to do. It is time consuming, and inadvisable in a situation involving multiples.

But then again, I don't understand why in a serious fight why you'd go for a tactic of striking the arms. Credit card, kick their shins in, their knees, elbows, and throat.

A tactic I enjoy is stepping on a persons foot. They can't go anywhere and it gives me a height advantage at times, which you wouldn't think such a big deal, but can be.

It amazing how often a well placed hand can jam any advance. It's also amazing how often people leave it out and dont expect it to be grabbed, or they thrown.

The trick is to know when to use things where. If I hit a person in the same place 3 times on the arms, and there is not even the tiniest lowering... i'd abandon the tactic against them. You modify everything as you go, per the individual. I'd switch to false openings, and maybe switch to striking them at the joints, lightly.

We should probably make distinction between sparring, and survival though. We did 5 on 5's today, and the first half hour was practical self-defense. The second half hour in our second hour was spent what id call continuous non-point sparring.

What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?? Nothing! Are you going to steer another topic off track with posts of how good you supposedly are? If thats what you wish to do, please do so in the other threads, but not this one. We have a specific topic here, and listening to you yap about kicking while moving back, and all the other gibberish you're talking, has nothing to do with the topic.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A nice reply... but it ignores my question completely.

Vi faris min perdi la volo por vivi. Mi esperas ke vi estas feliĉa.

 

[Gnarlie]

Vi faris min perdi la volo por vivi. Mi esperas ke vi estas feliĉa.

i venit, i vidit, i terebravisse in Braccae off omnium

 

[Tez3]

Bersonol i'n dod o hyd Gymraeg ffordd ddiddorol i gyfathrebu.

 

[K-man]

Bersonol i'n dod o hyd Gymraeg ffordd ddiddorol i gyfathrebu.

Finally, some sense in all this gibberish!
:uhyeah:

 

[Tez3]

Finally, some sense in all this gibberish!
:uhyeah:

Aye Wales have just won the Triple Crown, beating England, then they won the Grand Slam. Sure it's rugby not martial arts but at this moment at least it's plain and simple! I'm a bit tired of brain scrambling, self promoting, erroneous prose!

 

[chinto]

lol been sick, had not slept for about 48 hours when I made that post! lol surprised its even readable!! metacarpals. ok:rules: stupid spelling and typing and thinking at that point!!!! grrr.


oon the other hand, thanks for the notice. lol

if you are looking for your two cents back... I am sorry do to an insufficient funds your money is not refundable. so solly.! Please remit the moneys again and I will see if I can now refund it after I receive it.:drinkbeer

 

[Dirty Dog]

lol been sick, had not slept for about 48 hours when I made that post! lol surprised its even readable!! metacarpals. ok:rules: stupid spelling and typing and thinking at that point!!!! grrr.


oon the other hand, thanks for the notice. lol

Never fear, we are always near!

View attachment $grammartime.gif

View attachment $grammarpolice.jpg

 

[Zenjael]

Why wouldn't you deserve it? If you met the requirements that were established at the school and provided that there was no organizational prohibition or age restrictions laid out by an organization that the school was part of, then you were as deserving of yours as I was of mine.

Not in the least MJS. And the topic hasn't been de-railed, I kept it on track, even in the quote you gave. We should make a distinction between sparring and survival when it comes to which techniques we employ. I don't mind punching in point sparring, but in survival I'd switch to using my palm. I'm going to defend myself when its warranted, or would you advise me to... not defend myself on a public board when people are posting in a way detrimental to my view?

A forum is to discuss, and that requires alternate views. I notice you focusing on my post, but not those that proceeded it, which warranted me pursuing that thread of discussion further. It takes two to dance, if you get my drift. You won't see me being defensive when I'm on the initiative, so if you're going to lament my posts becoming tangents, well... No one could say the thread hijacked. I've found, on theology boards especially, that when speaking about God, sometimes you also have to talk about the devil. No matter what's been said, the convo always comes back to the question in the PM. Fist? Or palm? In regards to self-defense.

You claim its a party trick. Why? Because you dont understand it, you cant do it, and those that have tried it with you, dont know how to do it either.

When I see underbelts able to execute it, it is a trick, nothing more. I consider it in the same class as kicking an apple off a sword- sure, it takes great flexibility, accuracy, and skill to execute... but it's still a trick designed to wow children and get people to join at demonstrations. A magician operates based off technique, skill, and degree of deception- that doesn't make it any less a skill, or a trick. I am not privy to any 'secrets', that I know of, and I am apologetic if I come off as appearing to claim to be so. But I haven't... so... it's moot.

I do not think anyone lets people just wail on them, unless seriously averse toward violence. But you neglect my own statements that when pursued, as is almost always the case, it is not hard to back up and keep them running in circles. Literally. Given enough space I could probably back up the course of a football field, and keep kicking the whole way. Would you honestly purse me that far? And meanwhile, what can they do? Have you ever tried running and kicking simultaneously? Try it next time you go running. Most end up punching as they advance, losing a lot of reason in the pursuit of landing something. And as they punch, I'll happily kick their arms until the sky turns black from blue.

My point isn't that I'm awesome, or even very good. Anybody who does WTF TKD will know what I'm talking about. It's a fairly common, and basic tactic to use when it comes to kicking- retreat, keeping distance far enough to still land, but outside their immediate reach. Their kicks fail because you constantly move back. The only trick is retaining cardio to pull it off. And not get tackled. I did it with a wrestler once who was a linebacker and it didn't work out very well. My point is merely to give a tactic I have used, in response to your claim that opening by hitting the arms does not work. Sometimes, then you move to another strategy, and when that doesn't work, you move to the next, and the next, until either you are beaten or they. You know this. The only person whose guard you can't find the opening into... is the person who will defeat you... logically.

The point comes full circle- I'm not sure I can break a bone adequately with a punch. Probably, but it is without certainty. Perhaps I am miseducated, but I imagine 3 one inch slabs to be around the durability of a bone. I am certain however, that a full force palm strike will break most bones it comes into contact with. Are there any strikes you know if landed would get you put in prison for life for excessive force? That you do not execute, because of that risk of injury or death if you did execute it with 100% power and intent and speed. The palm strike is one for me, and hence is why I favor it over the fist.

I've given my 2 cents regardless; between palm and fist, I'd side with the former.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not in the least MJS. And the topic hasn't been de-railed, I kept it on track, even in the quote you gave. We should make a distinction between sparring and survival when it comes to which techniques we employ. I don't mind punching in point sparring, but in survival I'd switch to using my palm.

The problem lies not with the effectiveness of punching, but with your apparent (and acknowledged) inability to punch safely and effectively.

I'm going to defend myself when its warranted, or would you advise me to... not defend myself on a public board when people are posting in a way detrimental to my view?

Detrimental: Harmful, damaging.

I'm not sure how anybody could post something "in a way detrimental to [your] view". In opposition to it, yes. As others have suggested, you might want to stop using words when you clearly do not understand what they mean.

[Remaining self-aggrandizing rubbish tossed in the bin.]