Punches vs Open hand to face for self defense.

[K-man]

There was another one he used to do to demonstrate how relaxed he was , and how your arms should have the quality of being a "dead weight".

He would get us to all hold our arms out , and in a very relaxed fashion he would drop his arm down on our arms.
It looked like nothing, but when you felt it , it felt like his whole bodyweight had transferred down to his arm and you had a tremendous weight dropped on your arm.

Again you would experience a bit of nausea and at least one instructor ducked off to the bathroom for a quick spew.

My teacher uses 'heavy hands' in many of his techniques. The strange thing is that some of the time his "heavy hand" is actually very light and relaxed but your body just collapses to the ground.
Mate, we can't go on talking like this. People will think we are a bit strange. :highfive:

 

[dancingalone]

My teacher uses 'heavy hands' in many of his techniques. The strange thing is that some of the time his "heavy hand" is actually very light and relaxed but your body just collapses to the ground.
Mate, we can't go on talking like this. People will think we are a bit strange. :highfive:

I don't think you're being strange at all. One of the characteristics of high level martial arts is the ability to produce devastating effects even when the strike didn't look like much. Heavy hands indeed.

 

[K-man]

I don't think you're being strange at all. One of the characteristics of high level martial arts is the ability to produce devastating effects even when the strike didn't look like much. Heavy hands indeed.

Nice to have you in our club. :cheers:

 

[WingChunIan]

I don't consider myself to be a high level martial artist (far from it) but heavy hand, relaxed power and penetration to the jic seen are core to everything I've ever learned in Wing Chun. All I know is that I aim all of my strikes to the centre of the person (whether its their head or their body) not the surface and not beyondthem, the strike is relaxed and the blow is stopped by the opponent's tissues. Whether its a palm strike, punch or a strike with the fingers, thumbs or edge of the hand the ability to switch on and off combined with correct range and target (ie the jic seen) is imo what gives the results not anything mystical, but thats just me.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Torque.

What is Torque?

Torque is cheap.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Something to consider.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20790294

 

[GaryR]

Palm strikes are much better in most cases. For starters:

1) Less risk of injury.

2) Just as powerful if not more so-- using the pisform bone (little boney bit opposite the thumb at the bottom), can put more power per sq. inch into the target, and is a more direct line of force from the ground as it eliminates the weaker metacarpels ect. from the force chain.

3) More versatile techniques--you can use an open hand to better parry, open/close the guard, grab, break, lock, throw, gouge, etc. If you start with a fist to strike, you have to open it again to do the foregoing.

 

[Cyriacus]

2) Just as powerful if not more so-- using the pisform bone (little boney bit opposite the thumb at the bottom), can put more power per sq. inch into the target, and is a more direct line of force from the ground as it eliminates the weaker metacarpels ect. from the force chain.

Id beg to differ - Gently smack yourself across the jaw with your knuckles, then your palm.
imo, palm strikes acknowledge that punches dont do that much damage anyway if you dont use them in sheer volume, and just take the safer approach, with a bit more versatility.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Palm strikes are much better in most cases. For starters:

1) Less risk of injury.

2) Just as powerful if not more so-- using the pisform bone (little boney bit opposite the thumb at the bottom), can put more power per sq. inch into the target, and is a more direct line of force from the ground as it eliminates the weaker metacarpels ect. from the force chain.

3) More versatile techniques--you can use an open hand to better parry, open/close the guard, grab, break, lock, throw, gouge, etc. If you start with a fist to strike, you have to open it again to do the foregoing.

1) Debatable - You would have to consider severity and type of injury, technique and experience of the striker and type and extent of conditioning. A badly sprained wrist from a palm strike when hitting a punching bag or kicking shield or accidentally striking too far up the hand is a real possibility. I sprained my wrist once and I found that palm pushups were more painful than knuckle pushups at the time.

2) Comes down to technique as to which is more powerful and is quite subjective. The fist is a much more compact structure than the open hand and you can tension the arm a lot more with a closed fist. Striking with the pisform bone can easily lead to a glancing blow. The knuckles also spread out the force a lot less than the palm since there is very little padding between skin and bone on the knuckles as compared to the palm and therefore greater pressure is applied with the punch. One less joint to fail with a palm strike but the impact pressure is less for the same amount of force.

3) Yes, however closing the fist for a block prevents the fingers getting jammed and sprained by a kick or strike.

 

[mook jong man]

I have to agree with GaryR here.
Generally speaking the closer the impact tool is to the power source ie the body , the greater the force.
This is one of the reasons elbow strikes can be so destructive , the striking tool is closer to the shoulder joint.
The more joints there are involved in the action the more potential there is for the leakage of force.

The weak link in the punch is the wrist , if the wrist is not properly kept firm on impact , power will be lost as the wrist slightly buckles.
With the palm strike the wrist joint is eliminated , the power comes straight from the elbow , through the forearm and out through the heel of the palm.
Of course with everything there is a downside and with a palm strike you get slightly less range than with a punch.

 

[GaryR]

1) Debatable - You would have to consider severity and type of injury, technique and experience of the striker and type and extent of conditioning. A badly sprained wrist from a palm strike when hitting a punching bag or kicking shield or accidentally striking too far up the hand is a real possibility. I sprained my wrist once and I found that palm pushups were more painful than knuckle pushups at the time.

The several Ortho's I consulted on the topic did not think it too debatable. The knuckles are easier to break (and metacarpals), than the wrist/palm. Palm pushups were more painful because the force/push point was closer to your wrist--the injured part.

2) Comes down to technique as to which is more powerful and is quite subjective. The fist is a much more compact structure than the open hand and you can tension the arm a lot more with a closed fist. Striking with the pisform bone can easily lead to a glancing blow. The knuckles also spread out the force a lot less than the palm since there is very little padding between skin and bone on the knuckles as compared to the palm and therefore greater pressure is applied with the punch. One less joint to fail with a palm strike but the impact pressure is less for the same amount of force.

The pisform bone I described is just as compact as the fist, and even a single knuckle, there is also about the same amount of skin over it as the knuckles, some callous also builds after awhile. Glancing blow? Hmm, I've never experienced that, even with a lot of pad/bag/sparring work (and real encounters). On spreading the force out...again see pisiform bone. Also the palm heel in general (or palm edge), really isn't much larger of a surface area than a few knuckles. The impact pressure is not less, if anything, its more--again closer to the force chain, like mook said--see elbow.

Also you don't want to "tension the arm more" [sic]. The more relaxed the arm is, the faster it goes, the more versatile it is, plus it has more tactile sensitivity, and more force can be transferred through it. You just made another argument for me that I left out, thanks.

3) Yes, however closing the fist for a block prevents the fingers getting jammed and sprained by a kick or strike.

Sure, but with a tad bit of proper training on hand position and palm strikes this risk is easily mitigated, you shouldn't be trying to block kicks with your fingers/hands/fists anyhow, if you are, get a new teacher. Nonetheless the extreme comparable versatility outweighs this risk.

Thanks for the discussion.

Best,

G

 

[RTKDCMB]

The several Ortho's I consulted on the topic did not think it too debatable. The knuckles are easier to break (and metacarpals), than the wrist/palm. Palm pushups were more painful because the force/push point was closer to your wrist--the injured part. G

Pisiforms are also an injury that can occur,
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/pisiform-fractures#subscribeMessage

Also you don't want to "tension the arm more" [sic]. The more relaxed the arm is, the faster it goes, the more versatile it is, plus it has more tactile sensitivity, and more force can be transferred through it. You just made another argument for me that I left out, thanks.G

you misunderstood me. The tension is only at the point of impact, the arm must be relaxed until then to generate the maximum velocity

Sure, but with a tad bit of proper training on hand position and palm strikes this risk is easily mitigated, you shouldn't be trying to block kicks with your fingers/hands/fists anyhow, if you are, get a new teacher. Nonetheless the extreme comparable versatility outweighs this risk.

Thanks for the discussion.

Best,

G

Of course you don't block kicks with your fingers/hands/fists, that would be silly. You block with the forearm, but in the action of blocking you can sometimes get caught by a leg at then wrong time (mainly occurred as a color belt, extremely rare nowadays) or on an arm or item of clothing. Palm strikes are great and everything but not great enough for me to abandon punching when it works so well.

 

[RTKDCMB]

This is one of the reasons elbow strikes can be so destructive , the striking tool is closer to the shoulder joint.

Two of the other reasons: The elbow is a very large, strong and hard bone, and the striking tool is close to the axis of rotation of the striking action.

The weak link in the punch is the wrist , if the wrist is not properly kept firm on impact , power will be lost as the wrist slightly buckles.

A very good reason for knuckle pushups, strength training and conditioning. With proper training and conditioning injuries from punching can be significantly reduced and unless you are planning on getting into physical altercations everyday they are not really such a huge issue. In nearly 26 years of training and 1000s of students I have only ever seen or heard of 2 broken hands/wrists from punching and all from color belts breaking boards and tiles.

 

[GaryR]

Pisiforms are also an injury that can occur,
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/pisiform-fractures#subscribeMessage

Correct, no part of the human body is immune to injury. Not even the steel plate and screws in my wrist that mended perfectly aligned breaks--my artificial conditioning by fire so to speak! But that's a story for another day.

you misunderstood me. The tension is only at the point of impact, the arm must be relaxed until then to generate the maximum velocity

Sorry, I did misunderstand. But even at that point I think being too tense is stuffing your own power.

Of course you don't block kicks with your fingers/hands/fists, that would be silly. You block with the forearm, but in the action of blocking you can sometimes get caught by a leg at then wrong time (mainly occurred as a color belt, extremely rare nowadays) or on an arm or item of clothing. Palm strikes are great and everything but not great enough for me to abandon punching when it works so well.

Very true, it's a rare newb mistake. Hence, why the extreme versatility of the open hand is preferred. As an aside I would prefer to not have to even block a kick with a forearm--of course one may have to if the kick is much above the waist. But, before that happens you should have moved in to strike, and shouldn't have to.

Punching is a tool like any other, nobody should abandon it all-together. But I can tell you for a fact that an open hand is more versatile, it allows for more options during combat, and just because you personally do not know how to reap the benefits, that fact remains. The vast majority of your training is TKD, so I wouldn't expect you to understand or be comfortable with it. Go with what works for you, but do keep an open mind for learning to use new tools and make them work as well, I would recommend Baguazhang.

Best,

G

 

[RTKDCMB]

As an aside I would prefer to not have to even block a kick with a forearm--of course one may have to if the kick is much above the waist. But, before that happens you should have moved in to strike, and shouldn't have to.

Moving in to strike is one option. There are some kicks that should only be blocked as a last resort. Blocks can accomplish many things, you can attack the attacking limb, go into a grab or block so as to place the opponent into a position so that it is more difficult for them to continue the attack (so that their back is towards you for example) I can tell you that a low section block has saved me from a kick to the groin in real situations more than once.

Punching is a tool like any other, nobody should abandon it all-together. But I can tell you for a fact that an open hand is more versatile, it allows for more options during combat, and just because you personally do not know how to reap the benefits, that fact remains. The vast majority of your training is TKD, so I wouldn't expect you to understand or be comfortable with it. Go with what works for you, but do keep an open mind for learning to use new tools and make them work as well, I would recommend Baguazhang.

Best,

G

Actually there are a great many open hand techniques in the art I study, such as knife hand and reverse knife hand strikes, palm heel strikes, spear finger thrust back hand strikes, they actually outnumber closed fist techniques. I can assure you that I do know how to reap the benefits from open hand techniques, am comfortable with them and understand them very well. Punch, back fist, knifehand and reverse knife hand strikes comprise the majority of my offensive hand techniques with palm strikes and elbows used less often. I certainly agree that open hand techniques are more versatile, I simply disagree that palm strikes are much better for most situations than fists. A palm may be a more structurally sound weapon than a fist but a fist is a harder weapon which why I use both in different situations.

 

[jks9199]

I certainly agree that open hand techniques are more versatile, I simply disagree that palm strikes are much better for most situations than fists. A palm may be a more structurally sound weapon than a fist but a fist is a harder weapon which why I use both in different situations.

Use hard weapons against soft targets; use soft weapons against hard targets. Palms and fists both have places and uses. They're not always interchangeable.

 

[grumpywolfman]

I need to invest some serious bag time to reprogram my reflexes: I prefer to use open-hand techniques to the head, and closed fists to the body. However, I reacted with a vertical right fist when a guy with a big mouth rushed me earlier this year, granted I knocked him out with just the one hit; but my wrist was very sore for a couple of weeks afterwards, and it left scars from his teeth on my top two fingers (proximal flanges). A couple of weeks of not being able to use my dominate hand is NOT ideal at all, especially if I was an officer or soldier in combat for example. A palm strike would have redirected his head just fine, and drove him backwards to create distance without a knockout being necessary. Because as I'm sure you guys already know, if you redirect your opponents head, his body will follow. Muscle-memory/fighting-reflexes goes back to the cliche of "how you train is how you fight" in my opinion :asian:

 

[Cyriacus]

I need to invest some serious bag time to reprogram my reflexes: I prefer to use open-hand techniques to the head, and closed fists to the body. However, I reacted with a vertical right fist when a guy with a big mouth rushed me earlier this year, granted I knocked him out with just the one hit; but my wrist was very sore for a couple of weeks afterwards, and it left scars from his teeth on my top two fingers (proximal flanges). A couple of weeks of not being able to use my dominate hand is NOT ideal at all, especially if I was an officer or soldier in combat for example. A palm strike would have redirected his head just fine, and drove him backwards to create distance without a knockout being necessary. Because as I'm sure you guys already know, if you redirect your opponents head, his body will follow. Muscle-memory/fighting-reflexes goes back to the cliche of "how you train is how you fight" in my opinion :asian:

Mate, if you palmed an oncoming person in the head, itll probably introduce his brain to his skull more, not less. Its like, a really hard push.

 

[grumpywolfman]

Mate, if you palmed an oncoming person in the head, itll probably introduce his brain to his skull more, not less. Its like, a really hard push.

You're probably right, it was a stop hit.

 

[Koshiki]

I am most comfortable at close range, and I like playing guitar. Also I still have scars on my knuckles from, among other things a kid's braces 10 years ago in the 8th grade. I like palm strikes, punching things hurts!