Punch with footwork or punch without footwork?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kung Fu Wang, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When you train punch, should you train without footwork?





    or should you train along with footwork? Which way is better? Your thought?




     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I like doing both. I find I pay more attention to the punch when I use limited footwork (starting a small step away from a heavy bag, for instance) or none at all. But the full functionality of a punch doesn't happen absent the footwork, so I prefer to spend more of my time working with footwork.

    If I have a student who's having trouble with their punch, I'll often isolate it from the footwork to help them solve the problem.
     
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  3. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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    At first, separate. After a time, together. It feels weird to me now to do it without footwork, like im missing part of what makes a punch a punch
     
  4. wab25

    wab25 Purple Belt

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    I like to practice both, and apply both. Not every punch is to cause damage. I may want to get his attention, move the focus of his attention, surprise him, move his guard, interrupt his breathing or use it as a set up. (think jab) By practicing without the footwork, I can increase the power of the punch itself. When I then add the footwork, I keep that increase in power. But, you have to practice both, to use both.
     
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  5. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    We actually teach our students without footwork. This is because if we try to teach with footwork, they do the wrong footwork, and then we have more to fix. Take the basic Taekwondo reverse punch. Done correctly, you pivot your foot, lift your heel, drop your knee, sink your hip, and rotate your shoulder as you punch.

    As we teach our white belts, you stand still and move your rear hand to a spot in front of you, twist your hand, and then pull your hand back.

    If we let them move their feet, they're stepping all over the place trying to emulate our movement. So we have them stand still and work on the punch. Then we clean up the details later.

    I think it depends on how granular you want to get on the technique. If you want to isolate the arm motion, then it makes sense to train this way. If you want to connect the entire motion together, it does not make sense.
     
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  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Life is not usually an “either/or” situation. It is more like “and” and “sometimes”.

    When teaching, you start with a more basic version. That might mean just the arm movement.

    When practicing as an experienced martial artist, it is good to drill the basics, but that does not automatically mean the most basic version that you would teach a raw beginner.

    Footwork can mean different things. It can mean the appropriate way that your feet and legs work together with your upper body, in delivering a punch. This can be without movement/stepping, but often includes changes in stances, which could be termed “stationary footwork.”

    It can mean stepping and movement.

    They all matter.

    In my opinion, all but a raw beginner ought to practice at least with stationary footwork, when drilling the basics. Those who understand how to use stepping and movement should do that when practicing basics IN ADDITION TO stationary footwork.
     
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  7. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Yellow Belt

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    well said, i wholly agree
     
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  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    You should really train both. Because not every punch is going to have footwork. Footwork and punching should be advance level training. Punching without foot work should be basic training. Once you add foot work it becomes advance techniques because there's more to it than just footwork and punching. There's rooting, timing, positioning, short footwork, long footwork, forward, backward, sideways. There's just way to much to throw at a beginner.

    Punching without footwork allows you to minimize the action and focus only on the bare minimum to punch, which is exactly what you have in a crowded area. Adding footwork to soon in punch training is just going to confuse some, and make their punching worse. In my opinion punching just needs to be trained with and without footwork. Once the brain can put punching and footwork on auto pilot, then you (general) can learn how to combine the 2 without trying to think what the feet and hands are doing. That will then give you the ability to focus on other things that drive speed and power into a punch. This is how it works for many things in life. Learn things separately then learn how to put it all together.
     
  9. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Grandmaster

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    As others have said, it's important to do both.

    I'll differ from the majority who have responded above in that I think training punches with footwork should be the first thing that is taught to beginners. That's how it's done in western boxing and I think that approach works well. Footwork should be integrated from the outset and not just added in later.
     
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  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I've never been exposed to that. I've wondered about how to start a beginner with footwork (some I can do that with, easily - others, it seems to confuse things as @JowGaWolf said). If I had enough training in a boxing punch, I'd probably switch to teaching it first - it seems to actually work better with NGA's basic movement than does the Shotokan-style punch traditionally used.
     
  11. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Both should be trained.
    However, I teach from the beginning stance and fundamental body structure first spending 10-15 minutes, then footwork utilizing that fundamental stance and body structure for another 10-15 minutes. A a few minutes of basic punching fundamentals and back to footwork utilizing one or two of the basic punches again focusing on all good fundamentals of body structure with movement. This is day one and it continues from there.
     
  12. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    ^^^^ That's how I learned it in Latosa Escrima. But you gotta keep in mind that Rene Latosa was also a boxer, and his basic power generation is like Dempsey's "drop step" as described in the book Championship Fighting.

    On the other hand, when starting in Wing Chun (WT), we isolated the punching and stepping for a couple of lessons to get a grip on each. We started out working the punches alone, very much like what was shown in the OP's video of Alex Richter demonstrating WC "chain punching". The highly technical and seemingly counter-intuitive nature of the punching and stepping methods of WC made this a good choice in my opinion. At least for me. A more gifted athlete might be able to learn differently.

    Either way, before too long you have to put all the parts together- steps, body movement, and arm movement- and make it all work. .How you get there is up to you and your coach. :)
     
  13. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    isn't that what the kata is for ?
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Not my kata. I wouldn't put a student in kata without them knowing the punch (with footwork) first.
     
  15. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    with or without foot work...both have their place in proper training. Without footwork is also teaching structure, which will later come in handy when footwork is introduced. The foot work videos are teaching power with structure and movement. But I have trained with the gentleman in the last video and there was a heck of a lot of forms training and structure prior to teaching striking with fajin.
     
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  16. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    well that seems to be an issue with your kata, co ordinanating different bits of the body into sequenced movements is the only thing kata is good for, if its not doing that, what is it for ?
     
  17. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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    My personal belief, with no facts to support it, is it depends on the style. Namely, if the style uses gloves. If it does, having the exactly correct positioning with the hands doesn't matter as much, so an approximation while working on footwork is fine. But if the expectation is barehanded, I want to make sure their fist is correct before adding in extra stuff.
     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    If you think that's all anyone can use if for, you're not trying very hard.

    It reinforces technique (doesn't teach it, IMO). It's useful for exercise and (sometimes) for agility/range-of-motion training. It's useful for practicing the transitions between things. It is not, in my experience, very useful for introducing new concepts.
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Boxing is not alone by using this approach. Some CMA systems such as XingYi has no static punch. Their training include footwork during day one.






     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  20. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    We do train a static punch in Xingyiquan, all 5 elements actually. However it is debatable whether or not Bengquan is entirely static stance, but the emphasis in Xingyiquan is on moving.
     

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