Punch with footwork or punch without footwork?

[Gerry Seymour]

it's possible to use the wrong mechanics in any area of practise, that generally what you have a instructer for

Yes. And some areas are easier to make that mistake in than others. Kata has no immediate feedback for those mechanics.

 

[jobo]

Yes. And some areas are easier to make that mistake in than others. Kata has no immediate feedback for those mechanics.

immediate, you mean by that instantly as apposed to telling them in say a minute when the kata has finished,, which is pretty immediate in the scheme of things, can you guarantee to give instant feed back in any teaching method in anything other than a one to one situation ?

why not, katas are learn in small chunks before being hung together, there's no reason why instant correction can't be given and the move repeated with hopefully better mechanics, by the time they get to the full kata, the individual moves should be established and if error are present collective feed back for the whole kata , as with any other failure of component parts

 

[Martial D]

When you train punch, should you train without footwork?

or should you train along with footwork? Which way is better? Your thought?

With. Always with. The power comes from the legs, hips, shounders, elbow and even wrist. Training to strike with just the arm is useless, and trains you to arm punch. Why would you do that?

This is one of the things in WC I threw in the trash bin.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

immediate, you mean by that instantly as apposed to telling them in say a minute when the kata has finished,, which is pretty immediate in the scheme of things, can you guarantee to give instant feed back in any teaching method in anything other than a one to one situation ?

That's not feedback inherent to the kata (which is what I referred to), but outside feedback.

why not, katas are learn in small chunks before being hung together, there's no reason why instant correction can't be given and the move repeated with hopefully better mechanics, by the time they get to the full kata, the individual moves should be established and if error are present collective feed back for the whole kata , as with any other failure of component parts

Some of the mechanics cannot be accurately represented in kata. You can't actually do the proper finish of a connecting punch, if the punch isn't connecting. All you can do is simulate the punch with as many proper mechanics as possible. And then it's up to the instructor to figure out what's wrong and whether it's due to misunderstanding of mechanics, or inability to simulate them without a target. It's far easier to diagnose and correct with a tool (pad, bag, lazy partner's head) that actually gives immediate feedback. Kata, in my opinion, is better used for tuning and repetition (and the other purposes I mentioned earlier) than teaching new material.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

With. Always with. The power comes from the legs, hips, shounders, elbow and even wrist. Training to strike with just the arm is useless, and trains you to arm punch. Why would you do that?

This is one of the things in WC I threw in the trash bin.

Actually, I do train "arm only" punches. That's a useful jab for recovery situations when I just need to maintain some space. I can punch pretty sharply without adding legs or steps. It also adds more threat to feints, which I tend to not put enough "leg" into for skilled opponents to buy them as full punches.

 

[jobo]

That's not feedback inherent to the kata (which is what I referred to), but outside feedback.


Some of the mechanics cannot be accurately represented in kata. You can't actually do the proper finish of a connecting punch, if the punch isn't connecting. All you can do is simulate the punch with as many proper mechanics as possible. And then it's up to the instructor to figure out what's wrong and whether it's due to misunderstanding of mechanics, or inability to simulate them without a target. It's far easier to diagnose and correct with a tool (pad, bag, lazy partner's head) that actually gives immediate feedback. Kata, in my opinion, is better used for tuning and repetition (and the other purposes I mentioned earlier) than teaching new material.

feed back from a instructor isn't feed back well what is it then ?

the issue we are discussing isnt learning to punch, not that you couldn't have a person with a focus pad stood their whilst doing the kata, but rather the footwork associated with a punch, that doesn't need an actual target, as demonstrated by shadow boxing fulfilling the same purpose, it's learning movement sequences, pure and simple that you can, as with kata kicks or kata elbows, then be applied when you do have a target

 

[Gerry Seymour]

feed back from a instructor isn't feed back well what is it then ?

Not paying attention, are you? I said, "That's not feedback inherent to the kata (which is what I referred to), but outside feedback."

the issue we are discussing isnt learning to punch, not that you couldn't have a person with a focus pad stood their whilst doing the kata, but rather the footwork associated with a punch, that doesn't need an actual target, as demonstrated by shadow boxing fulfilling the same purpose, it's learning movement sequences, pure and simple that you can, as with kata kicks or kata elbows, then be applied when you do have a target

Yes, and I don't think it's useful to learn movement sequences of a punch without proper mechanics for a punch. I think it breeds bad habits that have to be un-trained later.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Speaking of foot work

 

[jobo]

Not paying attention, are you? I said, "That's not feedback inherent to the kata (which is what I referred to), but outside feedback."


Yes, and I don't think it's useful to learn movement sequences of a punch without proper mechanics for a punch. I think it breeds bad habits that have to be un-trained later.

your original post said NOTHING abo feed back inherent in kata, just feed back, which kata has if done in the presence of an instructor, your adding things are claiming they were there all the time

so why not teach punching and then as i said teach punching foot work with kata

 

[Martial D]

Actually, I do train "arm only" punches. That's a useful jab for recovery situations when I just need to maintain some space. I can punch pretty sharply without adding legs or steps. It also adds more threat to feints, which I tend to not put enough "leg" into for skilled opponents to buy them as full punches.

It could be your style is just radically different than mine. For me, if someone is in range for an arm punch, they are also in range for a real shot.(but not vice versa) Sure arm punches can sting, I too can generate decent power without moving my shoulder..just not anywhere close to the same scale as if it's from the ground with some hips.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have a video of me hitting someone with that same punch lol. I'll try to remember to post it. My opponent didn't like it. I should have hit him harder lol.

I have made that exact same move to work many times before.

- My opponent came toward me.
- I moved my back leg side way to spin my body out of his attacking path.
- I then used hay-maker to hit on the back of his head.

That move combine both defense and offense in one.

 

[drop bear]

Actually, I do train "arm only" punches. That's a useful jab for recovery situations when I just need to maintain some space. I can punch pretty sharply without adding legs or steps. It also adds more threat to feints, which I tend to not put enough "leg" into for skilled opponents to buy them as full punches.

You are still generally better off throwing with footwork.

Throwing hard moving backwards is a pretty useful skill.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

It work Both ways wen you practice yoyr basic punch your just doing it with horse Stance but if u doing your kata you are using footwork

 

[Gerry Seymour]

your original post said NOTHING abo feed back inherent in kata, just feed back, which kata has if done in the presence of an instructor, your adding things are claiming they were there all the time

so why not teach punching and then as i said teach punching foot work with kata

That part in quotes? That was an actual quote from the prior post, which was clarifying my point from the other post. That's why I added it. You chose to ignore the clarification, because you get to keep arguing if you decide to just use the words - rather than the intended meaning - from an earlier post. Rather than discuss the issue, you're looking for an excuse to argue.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It could be your style is just radically different than mine. For me, if someone is in range for an arm punch, they are also in range for a real shot.(but not vice versa) Sure arm punches can sting, I too can generate decent power without moving my shoulder..just not anywhere close to the same scale as if it's from the ground with some hips.

Oh, I'd definitely prefer the full punch, but sometimes you can't get to that base in time (moving backwards, slipping sideways, or on your heels). That's when the arm-only punch helps me get a shot in a hair earlier to open a moment of time to recover.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are still generally better off throwing with footwork.

Throwing hard moving backwards is a pretty useful skill.

That's not something I think I know how to do. If I'm pushing backward off the front foot, there's no leg support (until I set the back foot).

 

[jobo]

That part in quotes? That was an actual quote from the prior post, which was clarifying my point from the other post. That's why I added it. You chose to ignore the clarification, because you get to keep arguing if you decide to just use the words - rather than the intended meaning - from an earlier post. Rather than discuss the issue, you're looking for an excuse to argue.

you didn' clarify, you moved the goal posts as you realised you were in error again,

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Oh, I'd definitely prefer the full punch, but sometimes you can't get to that base in time (moving backwards, slipping sideways, or on your heels). That's when the arm-only punch helps me get a shot in a hair earlier to open a moment of time to recover.

I can see you may have reason to do that in fighting. But why do you want to "train" arm only punch?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you didn' clarify, you moved the goal posts as you realised you were in error again,

Nope. No goal post moving. Clarification is part of discussion. It’s what people do when they think they’ve been unclear - or are dealing with someone who quite purposely chooses an interpretation that allows them to argue. You know, folks who care more about getting to argue than about contributing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can see you may have reason to do that in fighting. But why do you want to "train" arm only punch?

Only for that purpose. After beginning stages, I can’t think of any other reason for it. So every now and then I revisit it. It’s not a regular practice, by any stretch.