Proof the Individual Matters More than the System, Style, or Art?

[celtic_crippler]

Let me give a little background in the event you do not follow TUF on Fx. The current UFC Lightweight Champion, Jon “Bones” Jones is one of the coaches for a team of fighters competing for a UFC contract. He picked a fighter for his team from the gym in which he trains MMA, Robert “Bubba” McDaniel. Whether out of loyalty or perhaps the thought that Bubba was qualified to win fights for him because they trained together outside the UFC, Jones picked Bubba for his team and quite simply, Bubba has not performed well at all.

I was thinking the dichotomy between Jon “Bones” Jones and his team mate Bubba’s skill and performance in the octagon is a great example of how “what” and “where” one trains is not nearly as important in producing a quality martial artist as the individual themselves.

Plenty of debates have been waged throughout the centuries over what system, style, or art is the best and I believe the obvious answer is all of them and none of them. They all offer the opportunity for improvement; however, the most important variable in that equation is the individual.

Thoughts?

 

[Chris Parker]

I think it depends on the aim you're going for. In some cases (such as the TUF case you use here), absolutely. In others, no, the art is far more important than the student, for a large number of very real reasons.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I think it depends on the aim you're going for. In some cases (such as the TUF case you use here), absolutely. In others, no, the art is far more important than the student, for a large number of very real reasons.

Okay…

Would you care to share some of them? LOL

 

[Chris Parker]

Protection of the system, ensuring that the skills being taught are accurate, rather than the fanciful dreamings of someone who doesn't know the reality, continuation of a lineage, preservation of a context, ensuring efficacy of teaching and training, ensuring efficacy of methodology over personal preferences, ensuring reality in methodology even when the environment is not commonly encountered, ensuring that the reasons are remembered for why things are done one way not another....

 

[celtic_crippler]

Protection of the system, ensuring that the skills being taught are accurate, rather than the fanciful dreamings of someone who doesn't know the reality, continuation of a lineage, preservation of a context, ensuring efficacy of teaching and training, ensuring efficacy of methodology over personal preferences, ensuring reality in methodology even when the environment is not commonly encountered, ensuring that the reasons are remembered for why things are done one way not another....

All legitimate points; however, I still hold that the manner in which these and other concepts are perceived and executed boils down to the individual.

“Knowledge is not enough, one must apply…Desire is not enough, one must do.” ~ Bruce Lee

You can teach all these things to your students, but the manner in which they perceive, pass on, and apply them is uniquely subject to their individual interpretation.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The student is always more important than the system, style or art if for no other reason than this; No students...no system, no style, no art.

There are a lot of styles of Baguazhang in China and some are pretty darn good but they are dying out because there are no students. Taijiquan as a martial art is dying due to a lack of serious students who are interested in the martial arts of it or due to those that do not have the patients to learn it so they try shortcuts and basically you end up with something like Karate-Taiji which is still not taijiquan.

Also pick a style, any style and you find some who are very good at it and some who are not and they can be training with the same teacher for the same amount of time same age. Some train harder, some are just gifted and others have found the art that fits them mentally and or physically. Some just like the mystique or the mythology which surrounds and art and really never get it.

A person may be horrible at Karate and incredible at Aikido...or they may excel at both or be horrible at both they may just not be driven to train or it may be martial arts is not their thing or it could be they stumble on a Savate school or a JKD school or a Systema School or a Judo school and their one of the best there is.

 

[Chris Parker]

It really does depend on context, though. For a modern art, individualization is a big thing... in something like Koryu, no. The manner in which they pass on the art, should they do so, is not so much up to them. Their job will be to keep the art the way they were given it. Bruce doesn't have much to do with that context.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Protection of the system, ensuring that the skills being taught are accurate, rather than the fanciful dreamings of someone who doesn't know the reality, continuation of a lineage, preservation of a context, ensuring efficacy of teaching and training, ensuring efficacy of methodology over personal preferences, ensuring reality in methodology even when the environment is not commonly encountered, ensuring that the reasons are remembered for why things are done one way not another....

All important, but if the student does not listen or care then what. Without a student to pass all that along there is no art. And all students are not created equal...some are good and some are not so good and then there are those in between

 

[Xue Sheng]

I just thought of a way, that to me, sums up what I am trying to say

The art is only as important as the student makes it

 

[Cyriacus]

“Knowledge is not enough, one must apply…Desire is not enough, one must do.” ~ Bruce Lee

Are you sure that was Bruce Lee?

 

[Chris Parker]

From a Koryu perspective, the art dies. It's more important than the student, absolutely. It's not about to be passed on in a half-hearted way, or left to be a shadow of it's former self. If there aren't any students, it dies. If there aren't any students good enough, it dies. And that's perfectly fine.

 

[Xue Sheng]

From a Koryu perspective, the art dies. It's more important than the student, absolutely. It's not about to be passed on in a half-hearted way, or left to be a shadow of it's former self. If there aren't any students, it dies. If there aren't any students good enough, it dies. And that's perfectly fine.

Agreed but the art is still dependant on the student....be it a good one but still a student. I am not at all suggesting the watering down of anything to gain students. What I am saying is that without them it dies and if that is the case, IMO, the student is more improitant than the art, but it has to be a good student

 

[celtic_crippler]

It really does depend on context, though. For a modern art, individualization is a big thing... in something like Koryu, no. The manner in which they pass on the art, should they do so, is not so much up to them. Their job will be to keep the art the way they were given it. Bruce doesn't have much to do with that context.

Bruce was definitely not a traditionalist; however, I assert the truth behind the statement applies regardless.

You assert that the manner in which an individual passes on the art is not up to them; however, I assert that they will pass it on based on their interpretation of what was taught them.

I don’t deny that in order to remain affiliated with certain organizations that they must adhere to certain criteria. What I’m saying is that the manner in which they execute said criteria will vary.

Everyone is different; anatomically, physiologically, mentally, and even spiritually. We share some commonalities, but we are still individuals and that affects we execute what we learn.

 

[Chris Parker]

Agreed but the art is still dependant on the student....be it a good one but still a student. I am not at all suggesting the watering down of anything to gain students. What I am saying is that without them it dies and if that is the case, IMO, the student is more improitant than the art, but it has to be a good student

Nope. The art doesn't need the student. I know that sounds like I'm just stubbornly repeating the same thing, but it's the way things are. If there are no students, the art dies. If the teacher doesn't think the art has value to the society anymore, the art dies. The art is the important thing. We'll happily kick out all the students if it means protecting the art. Even family members and dear friends.

Bruce was definitely not a traditionalist; however, I assert the truth behind the statement applies regardless.

You assert that the manner in which an individual passes on the art is not up to them; however, I assert that they will pass it on based on their interpretation of what was taught them.

I don’t deny that in order to remain affiliated with certain organizations that they must adhere to certain criteria. What I’m saying is that the manner in which they execute said criteria will vary.

Everyone is different; anatomically, physiologically, mentally, and even spiritually. We share some commonalities, but we are still individuals and that affects we execute what we learn.

I'm just telling you the way it is in Koryu... it's got nothing to do with remaining affiliated with anything, it's got to do with the way Koryu work. And it's got nothing to do with "certain criteria". It's either the art, or it's not. If it's not, it doesn't matter what they do, it's not the art. If it is the art, then it's the art, not the students individual take on things.

I realize this isn't the easiest thing to grasp, but it's really the way things are. Which is why I said initially that it depends....

 

[Tgace]

The real question here is "do the clothes REALLY make the man?". Does the Art make the person a better fighter or can the right person be a good fighter regardless of what Art he/she practices? Is it the content/style or is the method of instruction with the right mindset the key?


This Koryu issue is going down a different rabbit hole.

 

[harlan]

Presuming we're discussing an art worth preserving, I, for one, weigh in on the school/art matters more than the student. The student is simply a vessal and placeholder, and for better or worse, the art passes through them.

If I were to use the body as an analogy, the school is the heart and the rest of the body houses it. Of course, they need each other to function, and so which is 'more' important is a ridiculous question pragmatically speaking.

 

[seasoned]

You can take a well intact Superior art and it can be wasted on an uncommitted individual. Then again you can be a very structured person with drive and purpose and make a less then ideal situation shine.
Now, put the two together, Superior art/committed individual and there are no bounds. I don't think an art fails as much as the person involved. IMHO..............

 

[aaradia]

I think Bubba shows how important the mental aspect of training in a MA is. Bubba defeated himself mentally before ever stepping into the ring against Uriah Hall. The way he cowered and hid at the weigh ins showed he already lost the fight in his head.

 

[Zero]

Nope. The art doesn't need the student. I know that sounds like I'm just stubbornly repeating the same thing, but it's the way things are. If there are no students, the art dies. If the teacher doesn't think the art has value to the society anymore, the art dies. The art is the important thing. We'll happily kick out all the students if it means protecting the art. Even family members and dear friends.

If you mean that the family members/friends were hopeless, uninterested and without help or clearly bastardising the art, then I absolutely agree why you would chuck them out but if that is all your students (and I think you seem to imply you would take such drastic measures) how is that "protecting" the art?

If you and your fellow instructors are the last crop and the new grass aren't up to the task, surely the art dies - that means its historical integrity was retained right up to the end but the art is still dead and has not been protected, it's just been allowed to die rather than risk dilution or corruption.

I am not saying I disagree with this approach at all, just that this is not a form of protection (except to the extent you protect a dead animal from further decay by sealing it in a tub of formaldehyde and even so, no one will be able to view this dead art later as no one will be there to practice it).

 

[harlan]

Personally, after watching dozens of gawd-awful kobudo videos on Youtube performed by clueless huffalumps...I can understand why it's better off dead.

I am not saying I disagree with this approach at all, just that this is not a form of protection (except to the extent you protect a dead animal from further decay by sealing it in a tub of formaldehyde and even so, no one will be able to view this dead art later as no one will be there to practice it).