Proof the Individual Matters More than the System, Style, or Art?

[harlan]

Yes...well...I've been walked and fed today.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

By the way I like Chris and have no issues with him personal or political! Nor do I think I should be lumped into a category having trained in a wide assortment of martial systems both old and new. (so I don't think I should be lumped as the Bujinkan guy having also trained in other Japanese martial arts, hint, hint )

Personally I do not care about any system, style, irregardless of country of origin, how old they are, etc. I love all martial endeavors and those that practice them and respect anyone that trains in them and that means I respect them even if they do not agree with me on a topic and I am more than cool with that as well!

So no hard feelings of any sort on my part here! (I can talk politics with people of different political views to)

I think we can all agree an individual decides he or she wants to learn some form of martial arts, self defense, etc. So they go and join a system. They train, they learn and hopefully become proficient if they have the individual characteristics to do so. If they have to use what they learn "the individual" implements it and if they are practical and he or she has the right abilities they may work! In the end though the system was not implementing the training it wil be the individual. So training and a system with guides are important but in the end the individual will have to make it all work! Their abilities will determine if it can. (the individuals abilities) This is pretty undeniable irregardless of the system trained in whether old or new. Even whether the system is modern or old with little to no practical skill sets. Say a system has no martial value but is just for personal growth. Personal growth indicates that the system is geared toward the individuals personal growth! If is system is only for the group then let me tell you that doesn't exist because why would any individual stay if they get nothing. (maybe they got brainwashed) If we look at Koryu and if you are a practitioner you get nothing? Really? I don't buy it and have anecdotal proof that this is not true. Koryu practitioners get the training from the system and a connection to other individual people practicing in that system. So they the individual are getting some thing. They are also the indivdual who would implement that training if needed. I don't see it as a chicken and an egg argument as in the end any group is a collection of individuals doing some thing. Some in any group will be good at whatever they are doing, some will be mediocre and some will quite frankly be bad. Everyone on this board is an individual with their own unique experiences. Those experiences help to make us into the individual that we are. Just saying.

 

[Chris Parker]

Firstly, apologies for continuing with this. My aim is to end it by addressing each point, and hopefully, clarify exactly why I am stating that Brian is incorrect... as he's looking at it from the wrong direction. For any uninterested in this side of things (and I really can't blame you for that!), sorry.

And, to it....

Hey Chris,

Hi Brian.

I respect your opinion and your willingness to debate on the internet as you are a master at it.

Look, Brian, I understand the diplomatic approach you take, but I gotta tell you, this comes across as rather disingenuous. I don't think you mean it that way, but to tell me that you respect my opinion, and my willingness to engage in debate (as I am a "master" at it...?), then to refuse to listen, or even engage in trying to see what I'm saying doesn't show a hell of a lot of respect from my perspective. In some ways, the way you've presented your take on my comments has been damn offensive... but I'll get to that.

However, I think I will instead of looking at internet posts or reading books will base my opinion from contact with friends living and training in Japan and of course my own travel to that country. Some of these friends who also not only speak but can read the language and while most are in the Bujinkan and may practice another art as well. The one friend works there, speaks the langauage and also only studies in a Koryu. No offense but his opinion is golden to me.

I don't think you've understood the first thing that I've said, though. You have applied a completely different context, and ignored the way Koryu are, as has been pointed out by Cyriacus and seconded by myself... and now you're saying that you haven't even bothered to look at the multiple (again, Brian, multiple!) accounts, commentaries, statements, threads given by other Koryu practitioners that states the same thing I've been saying??? Really, I doubt that, if you're friend was shown the statements I've made, he'd disagree. You really have completely missed the point.

He is just a guy an individual per se studying an old Japanese system and he really likes it too. However he is a realist and sees it for what it is. Often I find irregardless of where the system originates that someone who practices it outside of the country tries to be more, do more or over romantices their training than someone who is actually training there. That is cool we all have our romantic wishes. Everyone does!

And this is what I mean when I say it's been damn offensive, Brian. My description IS me being a realist. It is not me romanticizing anything. The implication that I am is to imply that I am suffering a form of delusion regarding my own training, and that's just plain offensive. I have said numerous times that what I personally love about Koryu is that it is (what I consider) the most honest, delusion free form of martial art there is. Whether in or out of Japan doesn't change that.

Xue is right in that if a style believes it is more overall important than the students then it is a work of ego or collective group ego.

And here we go... Brian, that is a complete mis-representation of the mentality of Koryu. There is no "ego", or even "collective group ego" at play here... there is just the recognition that, in Koryu, you are working towards a different aim. You don't get that. That's obvious. But it doesn't make you (or Xue here) right.

Now if we look at the origional OP's idea regarding Bubba and Jones it goes to the idea that both have the same training yet one is better than the other. Now I am not saying a group or teachers or system is not important in an individuals growth. However, in the end in any circumstance or situation it will come down to the individual. Surely you can see this?

What you've missed (completely) is that I haven't argued against the observations regarding Bubba and Jones... in fact, quite the opposite. My first post said that absolutely, especially in cases such as the one in the OP, it's correct... but the OP actually asked for thoughts on the contention that in all systems/arts, the individual is the "most important variable". All I said was that, while that's true in many cases, especially in sporting and other modern systems, it's not the case in Koryu, for the reasons I have provided.

If you are attacked tomorrow, you the individual will have to deal with the situation in some manner. Your choice to train in the Martial Sciences will hopefully benefit you. However, your actions in that moment will be what determines your fate.

And, again, you're missing the context of Koryu, Brian. The idea of training to handle modern violence just isn't part of it. You train to get good at the Ryu, in order to learn it properly, and be in a position to pass it on (hopefully). And, in that sense, the real emphasis is on the Ryu, not the individual. If the individual isn't suited to the Ryu, they are removed from it. That doesn't mean that the students doesn't get any benefit from training in a Ryu-ha, just that the emphasis is on preserving and protecting the Ryu, not on turning you into a bad-*** fighter, except within the context of the Ryu itself.

That is similar to when Bubba steps in the cage. His actions determine his fate whether he wins or loses. His choice of who he trains with and how hard he trains and his natural individual abilities determine the outcome.

No, it's not. Because you have completely ignored the context of Koryu. There's a reason that sports versus non-sports systems is a constant debate... because they are very different, and have wildly different contexts.

Jones can give advice from the sidelines but Bubba the individual has to determine whether he takes it or not or even if he has the ability to hear it. Bubba the individual is the one that has to process everything and in turn determines what happens. Because in the end it comes down to the individual and their abilities and skill sets.

Which is completely removed from Koryu. In Koryu, you don't get to "determine" whether or not you heed what you're told... if you don't, be prepared to not be a part of that Ryu much longer. The student's job in Koryu is to learn the Ryu.

iI is kind've like at work. You may have graduated from the best University in your field. Trained with the best as well. However, when you are at your job if you the individual are not working hard and doing a good job your going to lose that job! You might have a friend at work that can bail you out a few times but in the end if you do not take care of business your going to be unemployed. You can even have a collective group working towards a goal but in that group each individual has to do their job. Otherwise with whatever they are doing it can all fall apart. A group is only as strong as the sum of it parts. Those parts are individuals! Hope the clarity helps.

And, one more time, you've missed things entirely. To look at your "work" metaphor, that's actually closer to a Koryu attitude. Sure, if the employee isn't doing things well enough, they get removed... and the company continues, probably even stronger for the loss of a less-than-ideal worker. The employee doesn't get to choose what to "heed" when their given advice/instruction from their managers... if they do, they lose that job. The important thing is that the companies future and security is ensured by having the best employees it can get.

While I have no desire to get involved in any of the back and forth that is going on here, I do want to add this link to a brief article written by Dave Lowry for the owners of koryu.com. It was written as a final admonition to the large number of people that were trying to join their dojo. In my opinion, it does a good job of summing up the attitude of all of the koryu that I've been associated with. It also gives a glimpse into why some people call those of us that practice the koryu elitists and cult members. So You Want to Join the Ryu?

Ha... post #25, my friend... beat you to it! And, again, this backs up everything I've been saying, whether Brian, or Xue, or anyone else wants to disagree or not...

I dont think thats the case in this thread.

The OP stated that two guys with the same training from the same school have different results in the ring. He states that he believes that thus is because, when it comes to victory in the ring, in combat..etc, what ultimately matters more than the "system" is the person implementing the system. Any system that teaches practical techniques can be MADE effective by the right person.

How this got spun off into "koryu" I don't know, but Im guessing there are person/political/"system" reasons behind it.

As I said, the reason it got spun off into "Koryu" is because CC asked for "thoughts?" on his contention that the "most important variable" is the individual... and I was giving an example of it not being the case everywhere. I agreed with him in the context he was talking about, but pointing out that it was not a universal truth.

By the way I like Chris and have no issues with him personal or political! Nor do I think I should be lumped into a category having trained in a wide assortment of martial systems both old and new. (so I don't think I should be lumped as the Bujinkan guy having also trained in other Japanese martial arts, hint, hint )

I know your Iai background as well, Brian... so let me talk to you Iai student to Iai student (can't remember if you did Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu or Muso Shinden Ryu, but as they're basically two variants on each other, we can talk pretty safely). My system (of Iai) is Muso Shinden Ryu, for the record.

So let's look at studying Iai. There are many different reasons for studying Iai, but when you do study it, what is the purpose of the art being taught? In other words, why are you being allowed to learn it in the first place? The basic answer is that the art is taught in order to pass it on... not necessarily to turn you into a devastatingly effective swordsman... and, as you learn the system, you are expected to focus on learning the system the way it is taught (you learn the kata as they are, in the order they are, rather than allowing you to explore your own preferences for what you "want" to do with a sword). In other words, if the kata states that you step forward and draw your sword horizontally, then slide forward and cut straight down, followed by a large "chiburi" action, and a specific noto, but you prefer a different noto or chiburi, or really like cutting with an upward angle instead, as you think it's better, it doesn't matter what you think or prefer... you do the system the way it is meant to be done. If you don't want to do what the art says, you don't train in it. You learn the system to learn the system. And you get taught the system with the aim of you learning the system... so that the system is preserved and protected. The students wishes/desires really have no place there... obviously they need to want to learn the system, but beyond that, there is no real emphasis on what the student wants. It really doesn't matter.

Personally I do not care about any system, style, irregardless of country of origin, how old they are, etc. I love all martial endeavors and those that practice them and respect anyone that trains in them and that means I respect them even if they do not agree with me on a topic and I am more than cool with that as well!

So no hard feelings of any sort on my part here! (I can talk politics with people of different political views to)

Brian, bluntly, you're not respecting practitioners of Koryu by telling us that the realities of our approach (which is not the same as other arts... that doesn't mean it's "better", just different) is a form of delusional wishes and desires. If you actually did have respect, you'd be listening, rather than just shutting out anything you're being told.

I think we can all agree an individual decides he or she wants to learn some form of martial arts, self defense, etc. So they go and join a system. They train, they learn and hopefully become proficient if they have the individual characteristics to do so.

But proficient at what, Brian? That's the thing. The only thing the student of Koryu needs to be proficient at is the methods of that Koryu itself... which can have nothing to do with the student's desires. If a student decides they want to learn Koryu, they need to understand what that means... because learning something like Shinkage Ryu isn't about being the greatest swordsman, or focusing on swordsmanship itself. Swordsmanship is the vehicle through which the Ryu is taught, which is quite a different ideal. It's certainly not incorrect to say that a Koryu student needs to train to become proficient in the methods of their Ryu, but they are not training in the Ryu to get a "skill set", but training a Ryu's methods (which are often based around a particular skill set, or group of them).

So no, based on your comments, we can't agree. You've missed, and ignored, the realities and context of Koryu.

If they have to use what they learn "the individual" implements it and if they are practical and he or she has the right abilities they may work! In the end though the system was not implementing the training it wil be the individual. So training and a system with guides are important but in the end the individual will have to make it all work! Their abilities will determine if it can. (the individuals abilities) This is pretty undeniable irregardless of the system trained in whether old or new.

Wow... again, Brian, this has nothing to do with the context of Koryu at all... which is the point I have been making! Trying to apply the context you're using is to miss entirely what Koryu are about. Oh, and this is just me here, but you do realize that "irregardless" isn't really a word, yeah? It's classed as "nonstandard", or "incorrect", and what you mean is either "regardless" or "irrespective"... "irregardless" just means "regarding", as both the prefix ("ir") and the suffix ("less") deny each other and cancel each other out... you're basically saying "not not regarding". I think you've used it 5 times or more in this thread alone....

Even whether the system is modern or old with little to no practical skill sets. Say a system has no martial value but is just for personal growth. Personal growth indicates that the system is geared toward the individuals personal growth!

I hardly know where to start here... if it's for personal growth, it will have practical skill sets, but the context might be rather different. And I don't know what any of this has to do with the idea of Koryu having a different emphasis to other forms of martial arts???

If is system is only for the group then let me tell you that doesn't exist because why would any individual stay if they get nothing. (maybe they got brainwashed)

Okay, again, the implication of "brainwashing", or "cult-like behaviour" that you've used are really incredibly offensive. Especially as you don't understand the realities (as your comments here are showing). And you do realize that the Bujinkan shows far more traits of both brainwashing and cult-like behaviour than any Koryu I've ever come across? I'm not saying it is, but it's certainly a hell of a lot closer. Oh, and you missed the point again, Brian. Koryu aren't about the "group" either. They are about the Ryu.

If we look at Koryu and if you are a practitioner you get nothing? Really? I don't buy it and have anecdotal proof that this is not true.

Who on earth said students and practitioners don't get anything out of training?!?!? Seriously, point out where that was said! Brian, you have missed what has been said, as you don't get the context. That's fine, I said right at the start that this is not something easy to understand from the outside, but really, you're arguing against something that has not been said. Of course the students get something out of training in the Ryu, but that still doesn't mean that the students wishes are considered important when it comes to the Ryu and it's study... because it's not.

Koryu practitioners get the training from the system and a connection to other individual people practicing in that system. So they the individual are getting some thing.

Oh, for crying out loud... Brian, that is not the argument.

They are also the indivdual who would implement that training if needed.

And that is not the context. Or are you saying that the only reason to train in martial arts is related to implementing the physical skills? If you are, you're off base in a range of arts....

I don't see it as a chicken and an egg argument as in the end any group is a collection of individuals doing some thing. Some in any group will be good at whatever they are doing, some will be mediocre and some will quite frankly be bad.

And this has what to do with Koryu having a different emphasis? This is my point, Brian, you're applying a context (that you are familiar with) to something where it doesn't apply.

Everyone on this board is an individual with their own unique experiences. Those experiences help to make us into the individual that we are. Just saying.

And I am coming from an experience base where I do know what I'm talking about, and what the reality is. The way you are telling me that I'm not looking at things with a realistic viewpoint is firstly wrong, and secondly offensive. You are not familiar with the context, that's fine. But it doesn't mean that what you are familiar with is applicable. It isn't.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Firstly, apologies for continuing with this. My aim is to end it by addressing each point, and hopefully, clarify exactly why I am stating that Brian is incorrect... as he's looking at it from the wrong direction. For any uninterested in this side of things (and I really can't blame you for that!), sorry.

And I hope to have ended it on page 2 post #28 and again on page 3 post #32 but here we are on page 5 Post #64

And here we go... Brian, that is a complete mis-representation of the mentality of Koryu. There is no "ego", or even "collective group ego" at play here... there is just the recognition that, in Koryu, you are working towards a different aim. You don't get that. That's obvious. But it doesn't make you (or Xue here) right.

Doesn't make us wrong either.....and everything is not Koryu.... but to be honest this is just getting silly so...you want to be right....alrighty then....your right.... .are we done

 

[Chris Parker]

And I hope to have ended it on page 2 post #28 and again on page 3 post #32 but here we are on page 5 Post #64

Well, it helped that you removed the sarcastic rolling eyes... but I took that to be you not really hearing what you were being told, but not being really interested in hearing any more.

Doesn't make us wrong either.....and everything is not Koryu.... but to be honest this is just getting silly so...you want to be right....alrighty then....your right.... .are we done

Honestly, yes, it does. But that's fine.

 

[Tgace]

And I am coming from an experience base where I do know what I'm talking about, and what the reality is. The way you are telling me that I'm not looking at things with a realistic viewpoint is firstly wrong, and secondly offensive. You are not familiar with the context, that's fine. But it doesn't mean that what you are familiar with is applicable. It isn't.

Perhaps your experience isnt as valid as someone elses expertise? :uhyeah:

 

[Chris Parker]

If you want to try that tact, go back to the other thread and note how I class training as "experience", whereas the conversation there involved Steve's contention that training was not experience. But hey, feel free to misrepresent away....

 

[Xue Sheng]

Chris

You really "need" to have the last word on this, as well as the "need" to be right...don't you....

I apologize for the rolleyes smiley, I removed it because I did not want a continuation of this (although at this point it appears removing it did not matter) and all I wanted to say was we do not agree and we never will (the basic agree to disagree thing and leave it at that), however I am now under the impression you really REALLY need everyone to agree with you on this and tell you how right you are.... and I cannot speak for anyone else but I will not, sorry.

But you know what, when reading a post on the Wild and Whacky World of the Web (which is far from reality by the way) that gives me the feeling in the pit of my stomach that I just want to scream…. It is time to walk away. Basically things in Web World, that are not associated with my job, that are silly and causing any little annoyance are simply not worth wasting my time on…..don't worry, I will not respond here to this again so you can have the last word you seem to need..... but I still do not nor will I agree with you on this and I still believe you are wrong.....have a nice day

 

[Chris Parker]

And really Xue, again, you don't have to agree... but it is the reality. At this point, though, it's the same as if someone was telling you that "Kung Fu" was a single, specific martial art... and no matter how much you showed a large range of systems that are all Kung Fu of various forms, they told you they didn't agree... it's that kinda "agree to disagree" you're proposing here.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You know I was trying to multiquote and this site boxed a post I had been on and off working on since early this morning! Bob Hubbard I blame you for that!

Wow Chris really?

Sorry if your offended! Maybe your taking this thread a little to seriously? I could easily have been offended all the way along it but I'm not as it is just an internet thread!!!

You are a master at internet debating. That is a compliment! It is some thing I most certainly am not because quite frankly I just do not have the time. No time to grammatically correct someone, no time to carry on an endless debate. You see when I got up this morning I woke up got the kid's up, fed them, checked email for book, dvd orders, etc., checked my blog and checked here. All in about five minutes or so. Then I logged on to this thread and proceeded to respond. Only being interrupted along the way by taking kid's to school, walking the dog and seeing the wife off. Shortly my first private of the day will roll in and I will be off training with him and then onto my morning training routine. (that is after all what is important) All the while probably still logged on here as it will take a while to respond to some thing that is quite frankly not worth my time. (not that you are not worth my time so please do not take it that way) However my daily activities is in the end just a personal individual issue that I have and has no bearing on the thread at all. (maybe on individuality) Except that I was paying a you a compliment for being a really, really good debater in that you have the time, skill and ability to do so!

So let's carry on. Not trying to hurt your feelings. I do respect you as a person and that you are entitled to your opinion even if you decide not to like me!

To everyone else apologies all around to you as well! Not trying to offend anyone here!

So carrying on.....

I know your Iai background as well, Brian... so let me talk to you Iai student to Iai student (can't remember if you did Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu or Muso Shinden Ryu, but as they're basically two variants on each other, we can talk pretty safely). My system (of Iai) is Muso Shinden Ryu, for the record.

So let's look at studying Iai. There are many different reasons for studying Iai, but when you do study it, what is the purpose of the art being taught? In other words, why are you being allowed to learn it in the first place? The basic answer is that the art is taught in order to pass it on... not necessarily to turn you into a devastatingly effective swordsman... and, as you learn the system, you are expected to focus on learning the system the way it is taught (you learn the kata as they are, in the order they are, rather than allowing you to explore your own preferences for what you "want" to do with a sword). In other words, if the kata states that you step forward and draw your sword horizontally, then slide forward and cut straight down, followed by a large "chiburi" action, and a specific noto, but you prefer a different noto or chiburi, or really like cutting with an upward angle instead, as you think it's better, it doesn't matter what you think or prefer... you do the system the way it is meant to be done. If you don't want to do what the art says, you don't train in it. You learn the system to learn the system. And you get taught the system with the aim of you learning the system... so that the system is preserved and protected. The students wishes/desires really have no place there... obviously they need to want to learn the system, but beyond that, there is no real emphasis on what the student wants. It really doesn't matter.

There are many different reasons to study Iai. In my individual perspective I study Iai to give me a sense of broader depth with Japanese sword movement. It has absolutley nothing to do with passing on the ryu, rank or really that particular ryu in and of itself. I will not pass it on as an instructor. (my instructor knows this) It was conveniently located (only an hour and a half drive from my old home) and the instructor is very good. I'm just studying to have a different perspective and that is why this individual studies it. Within the group that I train with (which is not often anymore except when I get back because I have moved across the country even though I practice everyday) there is one friend who studies primarily to have a hobby and get out of his house. That is his individual reason for studying. Another studies because his girl friend does and it gives them some thing to do together. If she stopped he would be done as well. (I know this for a fact as we have conversed several times on the subject over a beer) Another individual that I introduced to the group studies because he really, really likes it. He might even become an instructor down the road if I judge it correctly. (might) However, out of this group there are really only two people interested in the ryu in more than a superficial manner and that is the instructor and myself. Now my interest is only to have a different perspective with no intention of ever teaching or passing it on. While his is if I am judging it correctly by conversation is to be proficient and have some thing meaningful to do now and in his retirement. (though there could be more) I would say that the students wishes and desires as far as the training go have a lot to do with what is going on. Lord knows people try it out stay a bit and then many leave realizing it is not for them. Now the ryu is being passed on that does not mean that that there is no variation or change happening. I know this based on training with other practitioner's in the same ryu from different teachers. While we all do things fairly similarly you can see deviations here and there. Because in the end we are all individuals and while learning a system there will be individual characteristics coming out. That is reality! Take for instance if someone has a body type, injury or physical impairment that will not allow them to do the kata exactly the same way as the instructor. They may be able to do it closely but there will be some deviation or change of form for them. These slight deviations seem to be fairly common throughout Iaido in general or any martial practice for that matter. Not to mention when someone leaves a ryu and started another one whether in the present or way, way back in the past. Some individual came up with this stuff after all! (or a group of individuals) Probably because they thought they could do it better. Or because they had divine inspiration which we both know is a theme with some Koryu. (gives great cover to individual expression) There is also time in a ryu after learning the katas to take the training beyond that of course and that does lead to even more experimentation. (I know you know this already) Katas help you learn but in the end you take the training and make it your own! Maybe I am with a bunch of people who are just not romanticising it quite as much. Maybe you are with a group that romanticises it quite a bit more. That is cool as well! Really I have no problem with someone having a very romantic viewpoint of their system. If it works for you and your training more power to you and anyone else as well! However to say it is all about the ryu is just not accurate, not even close, not reality! It will always come down to the individual and the group any group will fall apart without the individuals. If the system is implemented it will be the individual. It also takes the individuals to keep the system going. Finally, individuals will change the system along the way as well. Nothing is going to be preserved in a vaccum. The Koryu systems haven't, older systems haven't modern ones won't be either. Changes made by a headmaster or instructor along the way happen and that is reality. Some, obviously the Koryu arts of Japan have done a very good job in staying very, very close to the original than others but they have gotten tweaked along the way as well. That is part of the natural human process!

Now as pgsmith said in his post and along with the article some times Koryu members are seen as cult like. That does not mean they are nor did I imply that. However, out there in the cyber world that is a general impression even if it is inaccurate! It does not help though when Koryu practitioners do things to make this image seem real. Similarly it would be inaccurate to characterize the Bujinkan as cult like because of the charismatic "cult of personality" of Hatsumi Sensei! Frankly if you have not met him you have no clue what I am talking about. (really, no clue) Similarly if you base anything of a video he has done you also are out in left field. (you just don't have the depth to understand) Yet, that does not mean you cannot criticise him or form an opinion. That would be your individual choice! However that brings us back to the point that neither is a cult! Which is the reality of the situation!

Koryu are about the ryu! A ryu started by an indivudual or a group of individuals. Through time practiced by a group of indviduals who whether they wanted or not probably made some small deviations along the way. Some of course did see some deviational change by a leader along the way. Now they are a very old, very old systems practiced by a group of individuals who will naturally have a multitude of reasons why they started and continue to practice. Even if there is a cohesive group reason put out by the founder, etc, etc. Each person will have their own individual reason why they practice and continue to practice. One persons reason will probably not be another persons reasons, etc. This I know already based on being told so by a practitioner. Your reason to study, practice Koryu will likely be different in some way than other Koryu practitioners. Really how could it not be! While you are from your posts all about the ryu and passing it on. Frankly, we both know not every Koryu practitioner is that way! Some people just want to train and acquire a skill set even if they may never use it, etc., etc. Just like any martial practice has people there for different reasons! In the end we are all individuals with different things that drive us and with different needs.

The Koryu arts do a wonderful job self selecting students. Really they do! However, they are not the only systems that do this or have done this through time. Many a martial system through time has selected students for various reasons. Propagation of the system, abilities, willingness, loyalty and yes throughout time for money as well! That last one has been a driving force for a lot of systems even if they purport some thing else! The Koryu arts are a model in one sense for anyone or group starting some thing up. Self select, find people on board with the program and bring them in, consciously and subconsciously reinforce this, always push this thought forward, find a few who will stay and continue said process and repeat. It really is a great way to ensure that a system or group carries forward over time. (saw this with a book club once) With the right individuals doing so you will get success. Unfortunately without the right individuals you will get failure and the system or ryu will die which we both know has happened! The ryu or system died or succeeded because of the individuals in the end! Which brings us back to it being the individual that is important! Even in Koryu! There wants, needs, etc. are very important to ensure that the system moves forward and does not die. You might have that one driven student who ensures it will go forward because in the end his drive was to be the one at the top. He may even purport that he does not want to be but secretly he did.



Now the above took me quite a bit of time to compose and frankly I do not have all day or hours to pick apart each and every post. I just don't have the time Chris! If your intention is to win via volume you will. Which is a great internet debating tool!

Nothing I have said has in any way told or is trying to tell other Koryu people that their practice is not meaningful, fantastic or anything else. I am just pointing out that their practice is an individual one in the end. Beautiful, meaningful and a wonderful practice! They are by all accounts wonderful systems and art! Beautiful really!

Sorry again if you take offense but maybe your skin needs to thicken a bit or maybe you need to realize that your just one individual Koryu practitioner? Lighten up a bit it is almost like we are Democrats or Republicans back here in the states. People should be able to talk about things without getting their knickers in an uproar!

If you want to be right and that will make you feel better I am more than happy to say that you are right!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Celtic Crippler actually came up with a great thread. He certainly has my apology that it has verred off on a tangent! I know the MartialTalk moderators will at least look into if it can be split though I am not sure how.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'm done as well Chris we could go round and round and right round. Feel free to have the last word if you wish!

Really no hard feeling as well! I still respect your opinion even if it may not be one that I could agree with! Still we are cool I would buy you a beer if you came over here!

Now onto some personal training!!! I am feeling inspired to train!!!

 

[Steve]

Back to the original post, I hope, one thread that popped up in several posts is the idea that the training is practical. Several different people stated that, provided the training is practical, the difference is the individual.

I take this to mean well suited and relevant to the intended task. For those of you who used the term, would you care to share more what you mean by "practical training?" What does that look like to you?

Also, when you guys say it's the individual that matters, what sorts of things do you think the individual brings to the table?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It was pointed out earlier in the thread, but not really responded to, that people are using completely different meanings of the word "matters" and this is confusing the discussion.


Celtic_crippler was using it in the sense of "the attributes of an individual matter more than the system he/she studies in determining his/her effectiveness in a fight."


Chris is using it in the sense of "within the culture of koryu arts, a value exists which states that the preservation of the system matters more than whatever benefits the individuals practicing it might gain from that practice."


The first is an empirical statement about which real world factors determine a certain outcome. The second is a value judgment about what outcomes are most important. Someone could absolutely believe both statements with no contradiction whatsoever.


That said, the modes for arguing with one of those statements or the other are very different.


Celtic_crippler's proposal is a hypothesis about physical reality. As a start towards disproving it you'd need to gather a decent number of untrained individuals, measure their natural physical and mental attributes, randomly assign them into groups to train in one art or another, then test each one in matches against individuals with corresponding natural attributes from one of the other training groups. If students of one art consistently outperformed students of another art in these tests to a statistically significant degree, then there would be evidence that the system did matter. It does get more complicated, because the original hypothesis was that the individual attributes matter more than the system, not that the system doesn't matter at all. That leaves open the possibility that the individual accounts for 55% of the variation in the final outcome and the system counts for 45% .. or it could be 90%/10% ... or something in-between. If you really wanted to examine the idea scientifically you would need some careful experimental design and statistical tests to determine the relative proportions of the influence of the individual versus the system.


Chris's thesis is a value judgment about what goals are important in a given context. There's no scientific study that can possibly prove or disprove it. On the other hand, folks are free to disagree with that value judgment, even if they are not operating within the same context. I can say "within my religion, x is a virtue and y is a sin and that's just the way it is." However other folks are free to tell me "those are terrible values - there's nothing wrong with y and no one should think that x is a good thing." If I'm going to have a conversation with those folks, we're going to have to find some higher justification for our positions than just saying "that's the way it is." (Chris is also making an empirical statement that the overwhelming majority of koryu practitioners share this particular value judgment, but it seems that the main thrust of his argument is that the value is the correct one in this particular context. Chris, please correct me if I am misreading you on this.)


I have some more thoughts regarding both celtic_crippler's and Chris's arguments, but I don't want to write a book in one post - it makes it difficult for folks to respond to all my points and I'd also like to see if we can get a little more clarity in the discussion based on what I've said so far.

 

[Chris Parker]

You know I was trying to multiquote and this site boxed a post I had been on and off working on since early this morning! Bob Hubbard I blame you for that!

Wow Chris really?

Sorry if your offended! Maybe your taking this thread a little to seriously? I could easily have been offended all the way along it but I'm not as it is just an internet thread!!!

You are a master at internet debating. That is a compliment! It is some thing I most certainly am not because quite frankly I just do not have the time. No time to grammatically correct someone, no time to carry on an endless debate. You see when I got up this morning I woke up got the kid's up, fed them, checked email for book, dvd orders, etc., checked my blog and checked here. All in about five minutes or so. Then I logged on to this thread and proceeded to respond. Only being interrupted along the way by taking kid's to school, walking the dog and seeing the wife off. Shortly my first private of the day will roll in and I will be off training with him and then onto my morning training routine. (that is after all what is important) All the while probably still logged on here as it will take a while to respond to some thing that is quite frankly not worth my time. (not that you are not worth my time so please do not take it that way) However my daily activities is in the end just a personal individual issue that I have and has no bearing on the thread at all. (maybe on individuality) Except that I was paying a you a compliment for being a really, really good debater in that you have the time, skill and ability to do so!

So let's carry on. Not trying to hurt your feelings. I do respect you as a person and that you are entitled to your opinion even if you decide not to like me!

To everyone else apologies all around to you as well! Not trying to offend anyone here!

So carrying on.....

The "master at internet debating" comment was not what I was offended by, Brian... I kinda thought that explicitly stating what I found offensive might have cleared that up. And no, I haven't decided not to like you, Brian...

There are many different reasons to study Iai. In my individual perspective I study Iai to give me a sense of broader depth with Japanese sword movement. It has absolutley nothing to do with passing on the ryu, rank or really that particular ryu in and of itself. I will not pass it on as an instructor. (my instructor knows this) It was conveniently located (only an hour and a half drive from my old home) and the instructor is very good. I'm just studying to have a different perspective and that is why this individual studies it. Within the group that I train with (which is not often anymore except when I get back because I have moved across the country even though I practice everyday) there is one friend who studies primarily to have a hobby and get out of his house. That is his individual reason for studying. Another studies because his girl friend does and it gives them some thing to do together. If she stopped he would be done as well. (I know this for a fact as we have conversed several times on the subject over a beer) Another individual that I introduced to the group studies because he really, really likes it. He might even become an instructor down the road if I judge it correctly. (might) However, out of this group there are really only two people interested in the ryu in more than a superficial manner and that is the instructor and myself. Now my interest is only to have a different perspective with no intention of ever teaching or passing it on. While his is if I am judging it correctly by conversation is to be proficient and have some thing meaningful to do now and in his retirement. (though there could be more) I would say that the students wishes and desires as far as the training go have a lot to do with what is going on. Lord knows people try it out stay a bit and then many leave realizing it is not for them. Now the ryu is being passed on that does not mean that that there is no variation or change happening. I know this based on training with other practitioner's in the same ryu from different teachers. While we all do things fairly similarly you can see deviations here and there. Because in the end we are all individuals and while learning a system there will be individual characteristics coming out. That is reality! Take for instance if someone has a body type, injury or physical impairment that will not allow them to do the kata exactly the same way as the instructor. They may be able to do it closely but there will be some deviation or change of form for them. These slight deviations seem to be fairly common throughout Iaido in general or any martial practice for that matter. Not to mention when someone leaves a ryu and started another one whether in the present or way, way back in the past. Some individual came up with this stuff after all! (or a group of individuals) Probably because they thought they could do it better. Or because they had divine inspiration which we both know is a theme with some Koryu. (gives great cover to individual expression) There is also time in a ryu after learning the katas to take the training beyond that of course and that does lead to even more experimentation. (I know you know this already) Katas help you learn but in the end you take the training and make it your own! Maybe I am with a bunch of people who are just not romanticising it quite as much. Maybe you are with a group that romanticises it quite a bit more. That is cool as well! Really I have no problem with someone having a very romantic viewpoint of their system. If it works for you and your training more power to you and anyone else as well! However to say it is all about the ryu is just not accurate, not even close, not reality! It will always come down to the individual and the group any group will fall apart without the individuals. If the system is implemented it will be the individual. It also takes the individuals to keep the system going. Finally, individuals will change the system along the way as well. Nothing is going to be preserved in a vaccum. The Koryu systems haven't, older systems haven't modern ones won't be either. Changes made by a headmaster or instructor along the way happen and that is reality. Some, obviously the Koryu arts of Japan have done a very good job in staying very, very close to the original than others but they have gotten tweaked along the way as well. That is part of the natural human process!

Now as pgsmith said in his post and along with the article some times Koryu members are seen as cult like. That does not mean they are nor did I imply that. However, out there in the cyber world that is a general impression even if it is inaccurate! It does not help though when Koryu practitioners do things to make this image seem real. Similarly it would be inaccurate to characterize the Bujinkan as cult like because of the charismatic "cult of personality" of Hatsumi Sensei! Frankly if you have not met him you have no clue what I am talking about. (really, no clue) Similarly if you base anything of a video he has done you also are out in left field. (you just don't have the depth to understand) Yet, that does not mean you cannot criticise him or form an opinion. That would be your individual choice! However that brings us back to the point that neither is a cult! Which is the reality of the situation!

Koryu are about the ryu! A ryu started by an indivudual or a group of individuals. Through time practiced by a group of indviduals who whether they wanted or not probably made some small deviations along the way. Some of course did see some deviational change by a leader along the way. Now they are a very old, very old systems practiced by a group of individuals who will naturally have a multitude of reasons why they started and continue to practice. Even if there is a cohesive group reason put out by the founder, etc, etc. Each person will have their own individual reason why they practice and continue to practice. One persons reason will probably not be another persons reasons, etc. This I know already based on being told so by a practitioner. Your reason to study, practice Koryu will likely be different in some way than other Koryu practitioners. Really how could it not be! While you are from your posts all about the ryu and passing it on. Frankly, we both know not every Koryu practitioner is that way! Some people just want to train and acquire a skill set even if they may never use it, etc., etc. Just like any martial practice has people there for different reasons! In the end we are all individuals with different things that drive us and with different needs.

The Koryu arts do a wonderful job self selecting students. Really they do! However, they are not the only systems that do this or have done this through time. Many a martial system through time has selected students for various reasons. Propagation of the system, abilities, willingness, loyalty and yes throughout time for money as well! That last one has been a driving force for a lot of systems even if they purport some thing else! The Koryu arts are a model in one sense for anyone or group starting some thing up. Self select, find people on board with the program and bring them in, consciously and subconsciously reinforce this, always push this thought forward, find a few who will stay and continue said process and repeat. It really is a great way to ensure that a system or group carries forward over time. (saw this with a book club once) With the right individuals doing so you will get success. Unfortunately without the right individuals you will get failure and the system or ryu will die which we both know has happened! The ryu or system died or succeeded because of the individuals in the end! Which brings us back to it being the individual that is important! Even in Koryu! There wants, needs, etc. are very important to ensure that the system moves forward and does not die. You might have that one driven student who ensures it will go forward because in the end his drive was to be the one at the top. He may even purport that he does not want to be but secretly he did.

Brian, bluntly, you've missed the point entirely again. Yes, each student will have their own reasons for training, but that doesn't mean that the students reasons, needs, or anything similar are considered more important than the Ryu. That's my point, and is what I've been saying from the first post on the first page. The rest shows a bit of misunderstanding (or misinterpretation), but is in no way contradictory to the idea that, in Koryu, the student is not the most important variable. The Ryu is the important thing. No matter why the student comes to train, the Ryu is the important thing.

Now the above took me quite a bit of time to compose and frankly I do not have all day or hours to pick apart each and every post. I just don't have the time Chris! If your intention is to win via volume you will. Which is a great internet debating tool!

No, Brian, I aim to inform by answering questions and correcting misunderstandings. That can lead to long posts, but that's just due to the amount of questions, or the amount of correction required. It has nothing to do with volume.

Nothing I have said has in any way told or is trying to tell other Koryu people that their practice is not meaningful, fantastic or anything else. I am just pointing out that their practice is an individual one in the end. Beautiful, meaningful and a wonderful practice! They are by all accounts wonderful systems and art! Beautiful really!

Sorry again if you take offense but maybe your skin needs to thicken a bit or maybe you need to realize that your just one individual Koryu practitioner? Lighten up a bit it is almost like we are Democrats or Republicans back here in the states. People should be able to talk about things without getting their knickers in an uproar!

Again, Brian, you've missed what got to me. You got a little irked at being "lumped in with as just a Bujinkan guy", as you considered it a misrepresentation of who you are, and what you do. It's closer to that. As for your first statement there, you've (again!) missed what I was saying. You're arguing something that isn't part of the argument.

If you want to be right and that will make you feel better I am more than happy to say that you are right!

No, being "right" isn't of interest to me. Providing correct information, and correcting misinterpretations, though, is. And as long as the misunderstandings continue, I'm going to want to correct them.

I'm done as well Chris we could go round and round and right round. Feel free to have the last word if you wish!

Really no hard feeling as well! I still respect your opinion even if it may not be one that I could agree with! Still we are cool I would buy you a beer if you came over here!

Now onto some personal training!!! I am feeling inspired to train!!!

Well, I don't drink... so maybe a Coke.

It was pointed out earlier in the thread, but not really responded to, that people are using completely different meanings of the word "matters" and this is confusing the discussion.


Celtic_crippler was using it in the sense of "the attributes of an individual matter more than the system he/she studies in determining his/her effectiveness in a fight."


Chris is using it in the sense of "within the culture of koryu arts, a value exists which states that the preservation of the system matters more than whatever benefits the individuals practicing it might gain from that practice."


The first is an empirical statement about which real world factors determine a certain outcome. The second is a value judgment about what outcomes are most important. Someone could absolutely believe both statements with no contradiction whatsoever.


That said, the modes for arguing with one of those statements or the other are very different.

Exactly damn right! This is what I meant when I said that the Brian and Xue were coming at it from the wrong angle, and missing what was actually being said.

Celtic_crippler's proposal is a hypothesis about physical reality. As a start towards disproving it you'd need to gather a decent number of untrained individuals, measure their natural physical and mental attributes, randomly assign them into groups to train in one art or another, then test each one in matches against individuals with corresponding natural attributes from one of the other training groups. If students of one art consistently outperformed students of another art in these tests to a statistically significant degree, then there would be evidence that the system did matter. It does get more complicated, because the original hypothesis was that the individual attributes matter more than the system, not that the system doesn't matter at all. That leaves open the possibility that the individual accounts for 55% of the variation in the final outcome and the system counts for 45% .. or it could be 90%/10% ... or something in-between. If you really wanted to examine the idea scientifically you would need some careful experimental design and statistical tests to determine the relative proportions of the influence of the individual versus the system.


Chris's thesis is a value judgment about what goals are important in a given context. There's no scientific study that can possibly prove or disprove it. On the other hand, folks are free to disagree with that value judgment, even if they are not operating within the same context. I can say "within my religion, x is a virtue and y is a sin and that's just the way it is." However other folks are free to tell me "those are terrible values - there's nothing wrong with y and no one should think that x is a good thing." If I'm going to have a conversation with those folks, we're going to have to find some higher justification for our positions than just saying "that's the way it is." (Chris is also making an empirical statement that the overwhelming majority of koryu practitioners share this particular value judgment, but it seems that the main thrust of his argument is that the value is the correct one in this particular context. Chris, please correct me if I am misreading you on this.)


I have some more thoughts regarding both celtic_crippler's and Chris's arguments, but I don't want to write a book in one post - it makes it difficult for folks to respond to all my points and I'd also like to see if we can get a little more clarity in the discussion based on what I've said so far.

Yep, that's about it as well. I've said a number of times that this value judgement is very much particular to Koryu, and not found outside it... so it can be difficult to those outside to grasp what it really means. I've also said that there's no desire/requirement/wish for any other persons or groups to apply the same values... every art and practitioner is free to apply the values they have. What I have taken issue with is being told that the values found in Koryu aren't "correct"... or even that they aren't there. It's been a case of myself explaining what the mindset/attitude of Koryu is, and being told "that value doesn't make sense, so it's not right/it's not real/it's a romantic delusion". I have explained, and backed up my comments, what Koryu's attitude is... people can say they don't apply the same (of course they don't, that's why I pointed it out as an exception to the initial post), but to say that the Koryu attitude is not real, or correct? It is. Deal with it.

 

[chinto]

both are important! but, some people will fit better with some systems then others. there is also a question of what you want to train for. In your example its a prize fight, so there are always going to be compromises to conform to the rules in that prize fight! Many very very effective systems of self defense would not be allowed in the UFC. The reason is simple, the rules and fighter safety. ( yes I have heard all the BS about the first few being no rules, and BS!) If nothing else the participants enforced rules on themselves! real fights to the death do NOT take even ONE MINUTE!!! most systems of Martial arts are more then capable of being lethal in a split second! in short when its for real its over in seconds and not minutes and people are crippled and killed.

So I think the student and the system are equally important to each other. some one who is built well for and has a natural bent toward grappling will provably not be nearly as good in a striking system as a naturally inclined striker. and of course the other way around.
Does that mean that there is not Grappling for instance in Karate Systems? No absolutely NOT! Just as there are Strikes in most if not all Grappling systems. ( but in both cases where used in a competition they may be forbidden or limited. So each needs the other, and if its a system that fits that particular individual well they will be much better with it then one that does not fit them.

 

[TheArtofDave]

Without the student to train, grow and get better in whatever art there is then the art will still be there. You need students to learn so they can pass on to the next generation. Whether the quick study or the one who trains every day to learn as a form of repetition to better the technique. The student is very important the art will be there forever and die with its previous student, but if its passed on when its taught it will live on. They are both very important but you can't have one without the other.

 

[nocturnal_]

I think the Art is important too. Each art is not equal. Some arts are more suited to some certain situations more than others. Some arts are more suited to some certain individuals than others. All other things being equal, art would be the tie breaker. I think people say the individual matters more because very rarely things are equal. I do agree that the individual matters more, only because all other things are very rarely equal.

 

[superkizuna]

The student is always more important than the system, style or art if for no other reason than this; No students...no system, no style, no art.

There are a lot of styles of Baguazhang in China and some are pretty darn good but they are dying out because there are no students. Taijiquan as a martial art is dying due to a lack of serious students who are interested in the martial arts of it or due to those that do not have the patients to learn it so they try shortcuts and basically you end up with something like Karate-Taiji which is still not taijiquan.

Also pick a style, any style and you find some who are very good at it and some who are not and they can be training with the same teacher for the same amount of time same age. Some train harder, some are just gifted and others have found the art that fits them mentally and or physically. Some just like the mystique or the mythology which surrounds and art and really never get it.

A person may be horrible at Karate and incredible at Aikido...or they may excel at both or be horrible at both they may just not be driven to train or it may be martial arts is not their thing or it could be they stumble on a Savate school or a JKD school or a Systema School or a Judo school and their one of the best there is.

I disagree, the arts are not disappearing. They are spawning other systems. Relatively new systems have absorbed techniques seen as useful from arts such as Tai Chi Ch'uan and popularized themselves by being easier arts to learn for one reason or another. This removes the 'need' to learn Tai Chi Ch'uan, for instance, because blah blah martial art offers similar manuevers. This is the history of fighting forms. These arts continue to borrow from each other until the original art is lost or so watered down that it is useless in combat with it's lineage lines lost. I am currenlty looking for Tai Chi Ch'uan in Northern VA. When I find it I will ask the instructor if he has been in a fight before. I might even encourage him or her to get tough on me in a demo just to tase what I'm getting into.