Proof the Individual Matters More than the System, Style, or Art?

[Zero]

The real question here is "do the clothes REALLY make the man?".

This Koryu issue is going down a different rabbit hole.

I think Tgace is right, these are two different but both valid quesitons/issues. Chris is right that preserving the intergirty of an art may be more important than the current practitioners. But it is also very true that when you are talking about the performance/execution of an art or style (either in kata demonstrations, kumite or a real SD situation) it comes down to the student and it is the student's natural talent, mind set, ability and/or desire that is important.

It would be interesting who you think would prevail in a fight between:
- an el' crapo, half-hearted student "training" in (turning up to) the most effective, rounded art there is (an art like mine) ;and
- a highly committed, driven, athletic student of a very one dimensional art whose techniques are even a bit subpar (ie the techniques themselves are founded on poor alignment and biomechanics).

 

[celtic_crippler]

Who perpetuates the art?

 

[Drasken]

I believe that this is a concept that is two sides to the same coin.

On one side, the art is more important in that, you can teach techniques. The techniques may be effective, but without the art. The philosophy that goes along with it, a student may never know WHY it is effective. Even just learning body mechanics, I have seen someone try to replicate Aikido for example. Well the throw worked, but was very sloppy. The other techniques used didn't flow properly together and thus were ineffective.
This student fell into the trap of seeing a martial art as nothing but techniques. Which is false. For example in BJJ you can learn a technique, but without the philosophy to go with it, good luck getting there. There is much more about methods to position and transition from one place to another in order to successfully apply technique as the specific style teaches.

On the other side of the coin. The student matters more in APPLICATION of a style and particular techniques to a situation. Two students from the same school, with same amount of training are put against each other in a spar or an actual fight. Well one of them will eventually come out on top. It depends on which student has a better grasp of the style itself.
It also has to do with psychology. A student who is not confident, or unwilling to harm an opponent in a serious bout will not go far against one who IS confident and willing to actually hit someone.
Also overconfidence plays a major part in why someone may fail.
When you get into it, this is a very complicated subject.


But in the context that CC originally meant it, I believe, is in reguards to application of an identical style and teaching. One man is a champion fighter, his partner is mostly fizzling out in the ring. In this context of application of technique, then yes I have to agree that the individual indeed matters more than the style.

 

[Chris Parker]

If you mean that the family members/friends were hopeless, uninterested and without help or clearly bastardising the art, then I absolutely agree why you would chuck them out but if that is all your students (and I think you seem to imply you would take such drastic measures) how is that "protecting" the art?

Because it's not a lesser form being promulgated.

If you and your fellow instructors are the last crop and the new grass aren't up to the task, surely the art dies - that means its historical integrity was retained right up to the end but the art is still dead and has not been protected, it's just been allowed to die rather than risk dilution or corruption.

That is protection, from our perspective.

I am not saying I disagree with this approach at all, just that this is not a form of protection (except to the extent you protect a dead animal from further decay by sealing it in a tub of formaldehyde and even so, no one will be able to view this dead art later as no one will be there to practice it).

You're talking about preservation at all costs, that's kinda anathema to what I'm talking about. I'm talking about protecting the art.

I agree with Tgace in that this is probably a different tact than he was intending, and really, my only point in my initial post was that the OP was not really a universal truth. But, to get a bit better idea of where I'm coming from, a good insight is this article: http://shutokukan.org/join_the_ryu.html

 

[DennisBreene]

I just thought of a way, that to me, sums up what I am trying to say

The art is only as important as the student makes it

It seems that the ultimate quality control is that the instructor decides when the student is worthy of promotion. Adherence to the art and a demonstrated ability to teach accurately are certainly criteria that should be considered as the student approaches Dan ranking and beyond.

 

[Gnarlie]

If the art was more important than the individual in making a great fighter, a person who had never studied martial arts would never be able to defeat a martial artist.

I personally know a few non martial artists whose mental attitude makes me fairly certain they would win most fights, whether against martial artists or not.

Gnarlie

 

[Cyriacus]

I may be wrong, but i think weve deviated from systems a bit. Which i think is because the question can be read in alot of different ways.
It can be read as whether the art is more important than the student, it can read as whether the art is the peak and nadir of the students abilities, or it can read as how relevant training is.

Just... you know. A stab in the dark, since not everyone is answering the 'same' question.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Nope. The art doesn't need the student. I know that sounds like I'm just stubbornly repeating the same thing, but it's the way things are. If there are no students, the art dies. If the teacher doesn't think the art has value to the society anymore, the art dies. The art is the important thing. We'll happily kick out all the students if it means protecting the art. Even family members and dear friends.

We do not agree and on this I doubt we ever will :asian:

 

[martial sparrer]

great thread crippler! here is my opinion. ever since I have done martial arts forums, blackbelts have been telling me that I have noting, I am nothing, I know nothing. the reason for this is because I don't go and train at a school. the reason for this is my two young children, so I train at home to have time for my kids. I have been training basic mma with some other techniques from other arts. so the more I talk to people on forums the more I realize I DO have knowledge and skills. if my body looks like the typical ufc fighter, do I have nothing? if I can kick you in the head, punch you in the face, AND not get hit, do I have nothing? if I can apply my self-taught techniques in sparring and be successful, do I have nothing? when I finally get out to an mma gym and start the classes, I may find out I have nothing, or maybe I will actually have some skills and knowledge in mma....because you see....I have the drive and passion to train for the last five years......just my thoughts.....so I think individual over the art. one of the things that chris parker has taught me is that we want to preserve the traditional arts...because as we know the benefits of these arts can change lives and the world....

 

[Cyriacus]

great thread crippler! here is my opinion. ever since I have done martial arts forums, blackbelts have been telling me that I have noting, I am nothing, I know nothing. the reason for this is because I don't go and train at a school. the reason for this is my two young children, so I train at home to have time for my kids. I have been training basic mma with some other techniques from other arts. so the more I talk to people on forums the more I realize I DO have knowledge and skills. if my body looks like the typical ufc fighter, do I have nothing? if I can kick you in the head, punch you in the face, AND not get hit, do I have nothing? if I can apply my self-taught techniques in sparring and be successful, do I have nothing? when I finally get out to an mma gym and start the classes, I may find out I have nothing, or maybe I will actually have some skills and knowledge in mma....because you see....I have the drive and passion to train for the last five years......just my thoughts.....so I think individual over the art. one of the things that chris parker has taught me is that we want to preserve the traditional arts...because as we know the benefits of these arts can change lives and the world....

imo, you certainly dont have nothing*, as long as you acknowledge what you are and what you are not. Thats not a bad thing, it just avoids some animosity.
*Unless youre the sort of person who deludes themself into certain things. Having known plenty of them, you wouldnt even know if you were doing it, but thats a whole other topic.

 

[Chris Parker]

We do not agree and on this I doubt we ever will :asian:

Xue, to be completely frank my friend, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. I'm just giving you the reality of Koryu... you might as well tell me you don't agree that the sky is blue, because you've only seen it with grey clouds covering it. Now, I'm not saying it's going to be the same for any other form of martial art, I'm not saying that you need to apply the same attitude for your art, I'm saying that this is the reality for Koryu... and no amount of disagreement changes that.

great thread crippler! here is my opinion. ever since I have done martial arts forums, blackbelts have been telling me that I have noting, I am nothing, I know nothing. the reason for this is because I don't go and train at a school. the reason for this is my two young children, so I train at home to have time for my kids. I have been training basic mma with some other techniques from other arts. so the more I talk to people on forums the more I realize I DO have knowledge and skills. if my body looks like the typical ufc fighter, do I have nothing? if I can kick you in the head, punch you in the face, AND not get hit, do I have nothing? if I can apply my self-taught techniques in sparring and be successful, do I have nothing? when I finally get out to an mma gym and start the classes, I may find out I have nothing, or maybe I will actually have some skills and knowledge in mma....because you see....I have the drive and passion to train for the last five years......just my thoughts.....so I think individual over the art. one of the things that chris parker has taught me is that we want to preserve the traditional arts...because as we know the benefits of these arts can change lives and the world....

Hmm. No. That's not what I'm saying, nor is it the reason I'm giving for preserving the arts. And, really, if you have no schooling in any actual martial art, then you do know nothing (in that respect). There's actually a lot of evidence for that in this post, so you know. Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, provided you recognize the reality.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue, to be completely frank my friend, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. I'm just giving you the reality of Koryu... you might as well tell me you don't agree that the sky is blue, because you've only seen it with grey clouds covering it. Now, I'm not saying it's going to be the same for any other form of martial art, I'm not saying that you need to apply the same attitude for your art, I'm saying that this is the reality for Koryu... and no amount of disagreement changes that.
.

Okie dokie

 

[martial sparrer]

well I think that I would be able to handle myself decently in a self defense situation......maybe do okay in sparring at an mma gym....but one of the things I have learned from being on this forum is that just because I can perform some karate kicks from my textbook, I would be quite obnoxious to say that I know karate.....so I guess I have learned where traditional martial artists are coming from....and I respect that.....at the same time I am naturally more of a fighter.....so an mma gym would fit me the best.....although there is this old and simple kenpo dojo near my house that I found that looks interesting..............................

imo, you certainly dont have nothing*, as long as you acknowledge what you are and what you are not. Thats not a bad thing, it just avoids some animosity.
*Unless youre the sort of person who deludes themself into certain things. Having known plenty of them, you wouldnt even know if you were doing it, but thats a whole other topic.

 

[Cyriacus]

well I think that I would be able to handle myself decently in a self defense situation......maybe do okay in sparring at an mma gym....but one of the things I have learned from being on this forum is that just because I can perform some karate kicks from my textbook, I would be quite obnoxious to say that I know karate.....so I guess I have learned where traditional martial artists are coming from....and I respect that.....at the same time I am naturally more of a fighter.....so an mma gym would fit me the best.....although there is this old and simple kenpo dojo near my house that I found that looks interesting..............................

How do you define self defense? Fighting? If so, sure thing.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It always will come down to the individual. Whether it is Bubba on the TUF house not having the physical or mental tools to win the whole thing or someone else training in any martial system. In a personal protection situation the individual must make the right choices in order to survie. In a system, "any system" old or new the individual learns, trains, progresses or does not. Maybe they teach and pass on the lineage but...... some where along the way the individual makes these choices. They decide they want to train, teach, etc. They may also decide along the way that they want to leave the system and teach some thing else. This goes for any system old or new. A system is only a system composed of its practitioners. Really, nothing more or less!


Where Celtic Crippler was looking at the TUF house he was comparing how great Jon "Bones" Jones was and how with the same training Bubba is good but not nearly the same type of mma fighter. Why? Well based on what I have seen watching the show Bubba is pretty skilled but lacks some of the athletisism that Jones has. Also one can only judge by the excerpts from the show but it appears that Bubba also has doubts about his ability. Not a good situation to be in to be an elite athlete. Both of them have the same training situation but Jones rises to the top. Why? Because of his unique individual abilities! (mental and physical) He received good training and has made the best of it becoming a world champion. Bubba has received the same training but may not have the individual physical and mental skills to achieve the same.

It always comes down to you the individual in your training. We all get help along the way by our teachers and fellow practitioners but in the end we the individual are the ones who have to take personal ownership of our training and how good or not so good we become!

In the end it always comes down to the individual!

 

[Chris Parker]

well I think that I would be able to handle myself decently in a self defense situation......maybe do okay in sparring at an mma gym....but one of the things I have learned from being on this forum is that just because I can perform some karate kicks from my textbook, I would be quite obnoxious to say that I know karate.....so I guess I have learned where traditional martial artists are coming from....and I respect that.....at the same time I am naturally more of a fighter.....so an mma gym would fit me the best.....although there is this old and simple kenpo dojo near my house that I found that looks interesting..............................

Well... I'd suggest that none of that is really anything to do with martial arts. And I'd recommend joining a school, if you want to converse with any real insight or input on the subject. At this point, you've come across as interested, but at the same time, you're an interested outsider. That's all cool, of course, but you do need to realize that to discuss martial arts, you need to know something about them. Let us know if you do go along to the Kenpo dojo, and how you go.

 

[Zero]

Because it's not a lesser form being promulgated.



That is protection, from our perspective.



You're talking about preservation at all costs, that's kinda anathema to what I'm talking about. I'm talking about protecting the art.

I agree with Tgace in that this is probably a different tact than he was intending, and really, my only point in my initial post was that the OP was not really a universal truth. But, to get a bit better idea of where I'm coming from, a good insight is this article: http://shutokukan.org/join_the_ryu.html

Thanks Chris, I had a look at that link too and that served (I hope) to highlight where you were coming from. Much of the link's reasoning was, I would think, the same as many traditional (or should I say not purely sport focused MAs). The same applied to my old goju ryu club and to a lesser degree the current one I attend due to relocation; someone who continues to muck about or is not focusing on the art is going to be shown the door.

The difference seems to be that in my goju club the teachers/sensei (some more than others) have been very much focused on the student, making them a better fighter for tournaments, making them better at kata for the same and for understanding of the art, making them more aware for SD, and as a by-product hopefully making them better people, full stop. From focusing on the student and placing importance in the student one actually is doing justice to the art or ryu itself, as the art is handed on via competent students. Obviously the form of the ryu needs to be preserved if that is what you are interested in but that all comes from focusing on the student (which I am sure you do in any event).

I think we are pretty much in agreement.

That said, maybe we are not. I think I understand where you are coming from but fundamentally it is the student which is important, the student is the vessel of the art (in transporting water across the desert, the jar is as important as its contents (deep, I know)). While you are an instructor in your art you are also a student, and were previously of course solely a student. You now hold the koryu in your hands (particularly if you were the only teacher for that generation). Imagine for whatever reason, despite how dedicated you used to be, that you started taking short cuts in its application and teachings, did away with some things you couldn't be bothered teaching and chucked in a couple of techniques or flashy forms that had little real world benefit but made you look good. Pretty soon the koryu would drift and then become a travesty, due to you, the student.

I do not see how one can be more important than the other.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm. Let me explain it this way, then.

In many (most, if not all) modern systems, the emphasis is, as you describe there, on the student. Getting the student developed in the best way possible within the context of the art itself. You have good practitioners, bad practitioners, great ones, and anything else. You can genuinely ask "who is best" in these systems (you'll get a range of different answers, of course, but the core concept of the question is valid). In Koryu, this question just doesn't even come up. The student is a student of the system, first and foremost, and while there are people who are looked to in this area, it's not really the same. They are looked to as they are the way to get to the art, not because they are "the best" at them. The student, conversely, isn't aiming to be "great" at the art, to be a "great" swordsman or anything similar, the aim is to be a good and true representative of the system. The student may become a great swordsman as a result, but that's actually kind of an interesting by-product. In fact, the way it's often said is that in other arts, you go in asking "what can this art do for me?". In Koryu, that's a really bad approach... there, the question is always "what can I do for this art?" The students desires, wishes, aims, goals, intent, all become secondary to the art.

As I said, this isn't a common approach, or one easily understood by those outside of it, which is fine. But this is the way it is.

 

[Zero]

OK, thanks, fully understand this approach now and see that with koryu the approach is somewhat different.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hmm. Let me explain it this way, then.

In many (most, if not all) modern systems, the emphasis is, as you describe there, on the student. Getting the student developed in the best way possible within the context of the art itself. You have good practitioners, bad practitioners, great ones, and anything else. You can genuinely ask "who is best" in these systems (you'll get a range of different answers, of course, but the core concept of the question is valid). In Koryu, this question just doesn't even come up. The student is a student of the system, first and foremost, and while there are people who are looked to in this area, it's not really the same. They are looked to as they are the way to get to the art, not because they are "the best" at them. The student, conversely, isn't aiming to be "great" at the art, to be a "great" swordsman or anything similar, the aim is to be a good and true representative of the system. The student may become a great swordsman as a result, but that's actually kind of an interesting by-product. In fact, the way it's often said is that in other arts, you go in asking "what can this art do for me?". In Koryu, that's a really bad approach... there, the question is always "what can I do for this art?" The students desires, wishes, aims, goals, intent, all become secondary to the art.

As I said, this isn't a common approach, or one easily understood by those outside of it, which is fine. But this is the way it is.

That is a beautiful and romantic point of view Chris. Unfortunately, reality is quite often drastically different then how the real world works. Koryu arts are just another long line of systems made and developed by men throughout the world. Other men and women are recruited and or find the system and train in them. Some continue along the path and propogate and or teach the system. Other's leave and either continue or go train with someone else or stop training altogether. It is kind've like you are trying to paint Koryu as some thing totally unique when in reality they are just another system in a long line of systems being trained in by individual men and or women. Just a martial system nothing more or less. It is very, very, very, very, very common throughout the history of mankind that a group tries to propogate themselves as the one true group, the people, etc. Really any name you want to put to it. All they are trying to do is create a feeling of some thing special and unique about themselves. It has been done in religion, politics, cults, martial arts, etc, etc. it has been done and used to do good and also evil. Now, before you think I am digging at you I am not. I actually love the Koryu systems of Japan and the practitioiner's that participate in them. All the respect in the world to them. Most, not all are solid people who are dedicating themselves to serious martial practice and I for one absolutely respect that. I respect that and also the long tradition that they come from. However, in the end they are a group of individuals practicing a martial system that is old. Some will stay in it and continue to practice, some will leave and maybe stop, while others will leave and probably train with someone else. I will give Koryu systems this though in that they self select practitioners who will stay with them better than many other systems who just let anyone walk in the door and train. Yet, in the end it is just an old system with a group of individual practitioners training under a leader of the system. As a matter of fact I have seen this same type of thing in other systems and some times it is really creepy. I am just trying to bring a touch of reality here. In the end people are people and the funny thing is that they really are similar all over the world in this matter of trying to define themselves as special in one way or another. That is just reality irregardless or what you, I or anyone else thinks and yes I understand the Koryu systems very well!