Promotion stanrdards (Split from Is it disrespectful to ask [...])

[Axiom]

Sweetie, that's one person's opinion not proof of anything other than he has an opinion. He's made the same mistake as you though in thinking that his experience means that Shotokan is like this everywhere rather than just where he trained. We can all generalise and spout clichés but it only ends up with us looking stupid. I might as well say I met a man from New York once who was a bit rude so I'm telling you now that all Americans are rude or how about I met a woman from Liverpool and she had thick curly hair so all women from the UK have thick curly hair. Are you getting this yet? Parroting the opinions of one dissatisfied karate student doesn't make all Shotokan bad nor it's instructors poor. It can also mean the writer is just bitter because he was failed for major reason but isn't going to say so, he chooses to give us minor details so it's the instructors that look bad not him. You need to question why this person wrote this and not give it to us as 'proof' it's barely more than gossip as I said.

There's also plenty of comments under that article that fundamentally disagree with him. Did you read them, there's more than these three I've posted, I quite like the last one.

"you dont know what your talkin about. ive been taking shotokan karate for 7 years now and i've got my second degree black belt. and let me tell you we do realize we dont have "authority" over the other styles. we realize the strengths and weaknesses our style has when put agianst the other forms. you sit there and made it look like we people in shotokan are a bunch of arrogant fools. i dont appreciate that at all.

Posted by: jeff wethers | March 16, 2008 at 11:48 AM "


"I have to disagree with your blanket assessment of Shotokan karate. Not all schools are run that way. Less then twenty four hours ago I tested and passed to second level brown belt; second kyu. In addition to our standard training of basics we also engage in very practical self defense. Many of the black belts who train here are cops or even professional bodyguards. My instructor has mentioned many times to do " your karate" clearly understanding the individual strengths and weakness of everyone. As far as corvettes ? I know for a fact there is no profit being made here worth mentioning. The president is one of my closeset friends and the occasional profits went to treating us all on a night out. We pay half what most schools pay and as an advanced student I have seven different opportunities to train per week. I'm sorry you had a bad experience but not all places are the same.

Posted by: Steve X | September 21, 2012 at 11:12 AM "


"mann you are totally off on this one shotokan is not about rigidity at all its all about getting connection through your entire body and releasing energy through one focal point in your body to create a very powerful and fast technique. The reason that you might have held your own against someone that is ranked higher than you is because you might have better physical skills than the other person. Or simply because the other person is not that great at free style kumite. BUT what you do not understand is the fact that he understands how his body connects he understand that you have to squeeze muscles together at the same time and also rotate your hips in such a way that causes more force to come out. NO you are to focused on the fact that you were thinking of your self as a macho guy who thinks he is better than everyone else... along those lines i have trained shotokan for 17 years and i am still a 3rd degree brown. it is not all about belts.
spiritually it is invigorating, every day you try and better yourself.

Posted by: Mikael B. | April 22, 2013 at 06:28 PM"

I never asserted that all Karate schools are like that. I claimed that they can be. You requested of me to prove it to you, and now it's not good enough. How surprising.

 

[Axiom]

I trained for 25 years in Silat now and never had a test, still got a certificate from my teacher with the title Guru on it, not that I would ever use that.

I rather have a teacher judge someone over a longer period like a year how he performs and grow within that year rather than 1 hour of testing. And I think Axiom is trying to tell you that but he is misunderstood

The fact that an art that touts itself as self defence, would value kata over free fighting (kumite) to the extent that a perfectly average student fails a black belt test, is to me outrageous. None of the points usally raised about kata positioning have any bearing on a free moving , self defence situation, since those stances will be modified (or dropped) anyway, and it's silly of any instructor to think that they wouldn't.

While I appreciate Shotokan instructors being strict, they should view the full picture of a student. That would be my philosophy were I to ever grade people as an instructor.

 

[andyjeffries]

I wrote that they aren't super strict. A girl around 25 years of age, in good health, failed to break a board with her knife hand despite multiple tries and was still awarded a black belt, despite breaking being a formal requirement.

Again though, we do the same thing. For us destruction isn't about the wood, it's about performing the technique correctly without holding back because there's an object in the way.

If the candidate still performs the technique correctly, but the board doesn't break then they still pass that section. By the same token, if they used a horrible sloppy technique but the board broke, should they have passed? Not here - as I said, it's all about the technique.

 

[Axiom]

Again though, we do the same thing. For us destruction isn't about the wood, it's about performing the technique correctly without holding back because there's an object in the way.
.

Huh? No use putting forward a board if the objective isn't to break it. Might as well have the student hit a mitts or something else then. That being said, the problem I just raised in Shotokan is rarely prevalent in TKD gradings based on my experience, and that is a positive. Would you agree?

 

[Axiom]

For us destruction isn't about the wood,.

Aren't you affiliated with the KKW? The conditions clearly state the objective is to break the board.

 

[Axiom]

As if that wasn't enough, the board wasn't even wood....

 

[Tez3]

I never asserted that all Karate schools are like that. I claimed that they can be. You requested of me to prove it to you, and now it's not good enough. How surprising.

No, you are claiming that Shotokan is like that and I've quoted your posts where you say it is. Have you ever trained in a Shotokan class? You are putting them down so much yet I suspect you actually know nothing about them. What you posted wasn't proof at all, it was one person's blog telling us his opinion, there was no proof there at all.

I rather have a teacher judge someone over a longer period like a year how he performs and grow within that year rather than 1 hour of testing. And I think Axiom is trying to tell you that but he is misunderstood

No, he is making very plain his dislike of a particular karate style.

The fact that an art that touts itself as self defence, would value kata over free fighting (kumite) to the extent that a perfectly average student fails a black belt test, is to me outrageous. None of the points usally raised about kata positioning have any bearing on a free moving , self defence situation, since those stances will be modified (or dropped) anyway, and it's silly of any instructor to think that they wouldn't.

While I appreciate Shotokan instructors being strict, they should view the full picture of a student. That would be my philosophy were I to ever grade people as an instructor.

You see here you go again...'all Shotokan instructors'. You are basing your opinion on what ONE person says, you are taking what his side of the story is to be true of ALL Shotokan instructors and of the style. You also show a huge lack of knowledge about kata and bunkai. The criticisms you make of Shotokan and it's instructors is breathtakingly ignorant. Your outrage is based on ignorance.

Huh? No use putting forward a board if the objective isn't to break it. Might as well have the student hit a mitts or something else then. That being said, the problem I just raised in Shotokan is rarely prevalent in TKD gradings based on my experience, and that is a positive. Would you agree?

You stated that in your TKD's school's grading a person failed to break a board and still passed the grading. It was you brought this up as being wrong, it has nothing to do with Shotokan where they rarely use board breaking at any time yet now it's not a problem and it's something else that's wrong with Shotokan? Really, you need to start reading what you write. You probably also need to read and understand what senior TKD people are telling you unless you think you know better than them?

 

[Axiom]

No, you are claiming that Shotokan is like that and I've quoted your posts where you say it is.

No, I stated that they very well can be. Is there a problem for you reading things through the lens of nuances instead of absolutes?

Have you ever trained in a Shotokan class?

Yes.

You are putting them down so much yet I suspect you actually know nothing about them. What you posted wasn't proof at all, it was one person's blog telling us his opinion, there was no proof there at all.

It was one person relaying his experience, which confirms other peoples reports. Black belt tests in Shotokan are notoriously picky.

You see here you go again...'all Shotokan instructors'. You are basing your opinion on what ONE person says, you are taking what his side of the story is to be true of ALL Shotokan instructors and of the style. You also show a huge lack of knowledge about kata and bunkai. The criticisms you make of Shotokan and it's instructors is breathtakingly ignorant. Your outrage is based on ignorance.

Once again, I did not state that all Shotokan instructors fit the bill. There is no mention of the word all, except in your mind

You stated that in your TKD's school's grading a person failed to break a board and still passed the grading. It was you brought this up as being wrong, it has nothing to do with Shotokan where they rarely use board breaking at any time yet now it's not a problem and it's something else that's wrong with Shotokan?

I'm comparing laxed gradings with overly rigid ones. And if I had to pick, I'd take the laxed one since it would not risk negating talented students at sparring who flunk because of microscopic kata pickiness.

 

[Tez3]

No, I stated that they very well can be. Is there a problem for you reading things through the lens of nuances instead of absolutes?

You aren't talking in nuances ( whatever that means lol) you are making statements that you are getting pulled up for and can't substantiate.

Yes.

To black belt?

It was one person relaying his experience, which confirms other peoples reports. Black belt tests in Shotokan are notoriously picky.

You see, there you go again. 'Black belt tests in shotokan are notoriously picky', in whose opinion? Yours. As I said before and you didn't read, obviously, one person's 'picky' is another's ideal. You can't judge and have shown nothing to prove that they are excessively 'picky'.

Once again, I did not state that all Shotokan instructors fit the bill. There is no mention of the word all, except in your mind

When you say 'Shotokan is this or that' don't you understand that you are saying 'all'? there is no qualifier from you saying that it's some, a few or even just a couple. See above where you say 'Shotokan gradings...' this is you saying 'all'. apart from the fact it's not true.

I'm comparing laxed gradings with overly rigid ones. And if I had to pick, I'd take the laxed one since it would not risk negating talented students at sparring who flunk because of microscopic kata pickiness.

I have no idea what a 'laxed' grading is, I assume you mean 'lax'. You may want to look up the word. No one wants a lax test.

 

[hoshin1600]

Generally I have seen that many students actually fail or even are never asked to test because their attitude sucks. I personally would not grade an arrogant person who thinks they know everything or the ones who think they are entitled to a certain rank.

 

[Axiom]

When you say 'Shotokan is this or that' don't you understand that you are saying 'all'? there is no qualifier from you saying that it's some, a few or even just a couple.

The qualifer is the preface: "can be". The absence of the word "all" is another. I know of Shotokan instructors who take into account individual differences when grading a persons kata. I also know of instructors that don't. The trend seems to be that the higher ranked and prolific the instructor is, the worse it is when it comes to rigidness. I can reference more experiences from a Shihan, Japanese Shotokan instructor who objected to stylistic way the student performed a kata, and failed him.

 

[Axiom]

I have no idea what a 'laxed' grading is, I assume you mean 'lax'. test.

You're about as picky with words with a foreign poster as S O M E Shotokan instructors are with Katas in gradings. Congrats. Laxed was my attempt to use the word "lax" in past tense, which turned out to be incorrect.

 

[Axiom]

Generally I have seen that many students actually fail or even are never asked to test because their attitude sucks. I personally would not grade an arrogant person who thinks they know everything or the ones who think they are entitled to a certain rank.

My attitude was based on past experiences, and past experiences in my club indicates to me that my instructor does not fail anyone no matter how much they screw up. A grandmaster, Chief instructor and President of the Federation. But I'm sure he's not representative at all! TKD gradings are super strict and I could be the first one to fail his test in ages (sarcasm*).

 

[Tez3]

You're about as picky with words with a foreign poster as S O M E Shotokan instructors are with Katas in gradings. Congrats. Laxed was my attempt to use the word "lax" in past tense, which turned out to be incorrect.

You have not said English isn't your first language. However, being 'picky' with words is important, using the wrong word changes the whole meaning of sentences and totally skews understanding. Such as 'lax'. You are saying you want 'lax' gradings, this means you want careless... slack... negligent... slipshod... negligent ...neglectful gradings which are words for 'lax' and as I said no one wants that. You need another word instead to describe a grading that isn't over strict ( 'over strict' would do).

it may well be that like your understanding of the word 'lax' your understanding of these gradings is flawed, influenced by what you have read.


You are misunderstanding too that when you say 'Shotokan is known for something' that there is no qualifier to say you mean only some , you actually have to say that and not keep saying 'Shotokan is'.

I assume too that you don't realise that you are contradicting yourself a lot as well, which makes for confusing reading for the rest of us.

 

[Tez3]

I can reference more experiences from a Shihan, Japanese Shotokan instructor who objected to stylistic way the student performed a kata, and failed him.

As is his right if he feels the student is wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. I take it you think you know better than this instructor in a style that's not your own? it's not my style either, so I wouldn't criticise someone else's instructor doing a style I don't do.

 

[Axiom]

You have not said English isn't your first language. However, being 'picky' with words is important, using the wrong word changes the whole meaning of sentences and totally skews understanding. Such as 'lax'. You are saying you want 'lax' gradings, this means you want careless... slack... negligent... slipshod... negligent ...neglectful gradings which are words for 'lax' and as I said no one wants that. You need another word instead to describe a grading that isn't over strict ( 'over strict' would do).

Nope. I would take lax gradings over rigid ones and pass students who are gifted but lazy, rather than fail talented people who don't position their foot exactly 25 degrees in an age old kata with limited applicability for self defence, since people are constantly moving in such situations and not dogmatically fixed in a stance.

 

[Axiom]

Btw, Laxed was a perfectly appropriate term: I found great synonyms for "laxed" on the new Thesaurus.com!

"Loose", "slacken",....

It's your english that is lacking, not mine.

 

[Tez3]

Btw, Laxed was a perfectly appropriate term: I found great synonyms for "laxed" on the new Thesaurus.com!

"Loose", "slacken",....

It's your english that is lacking, not mine.

Sigh. Lax or laxed is still not what you want in a grading, you missed my point. If you have no sense of self respect then I suppose a lax grading is fine. Being slack isn't a good thing when it comes to gradings, it means you are rubbish basically. A slack person or someone doing a slack job is not good.

Nope. I would take lax gradings over rigid ones and pass students who are gifted but lazy, rather than fail talented people who don't position their foot exactly 25 degrees in an age old kata with limited applicability for self defence, since people are constantly moving in such situations and not dogmatically fixed in a stance.

This shows your total lack of understanding of kata. Here's another word for you to look up..... Bunkai. There is also your lack of understanding of 'lax' again, it isn't the opposite of rigid in the way you think it is. Lax is not a good thing, in this context the opposite of 'rigid' would be 'relaxed'.
Rewarding laziness? then why should anyone bother working hard, striving to be the best they can if you reward laziness. Being gifted is worth nothing without putting the work in. You don't reward people for having a full head of hair or for having long legs, they were born that way so you don't 'reward' gifted people who do sweet Fanny Adams about anything, that's a nonsense. You work hard and then you are rewarded.

You haven't understood that people who take a style that demands a very high standard are happy there, it's what they want. If they don't want that then they walk away. We each choose a style and stay with it because it suits what we like and want. You don't get to criticise what other styles do when their students are happy with it, hundreds of thousands if not millions over the years have graded in Shotokan, are you saying you know better than all of them and that they shouldn't bother?

 

[Axiom]

This shows your total lack of understanding of kata. Here's another word for you to look up..... Bunkai.

The bunkai is executed in the exact same stances as in the katas... Those stances are not likely to be implemented during a live confrontation. Thus the applicability of katas may only extend to the actually strikes, not the stances. So to fail a student based on stances or exact posture of the upper body is unwarranted from a self defence perspective. Shotokan is marketed as a self defence, and gradings should take into account not just the kata.

 

[Axiom]

Sigh. Lax or laxed is still not what you want in a grading, you missed my point.

You claimed that that it was a misuse of the word and that lax was the word I was looking for. You were wrong.