Promotion stanrdards (Split from Is it disrespectful to ask [...])

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Headhunter, Sep 12, 2017.

  1. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    I never asserted that all Karate schools are like that. I claimed that they can be. You requested of me to prove it to you, and now it's not good enough. How surprising.
     
  2. Malos1979

    Malos1979 Green Belt

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    I trained for 25 years in Silat now and never had a test, still got a certificate from my teacher with the title Guru on it, not that I would ever use that.

    I rather have a teacher judge someone over a longer period like a year how he performs and grow within that year rather than 1 hour of testing. And I think Axiom is trying to tell you that but he is misunderstood :)
     
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  3. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    The fact that an art that touts itself as self defence, would value kata over free fighting (kumite) to the extent that a perfectly average student fails a black belt test, is to me outrageous. None of the points usally raised about kata positioning have any bearing on a free moving , self defence situation, since those stances will be modified (or dropped) anyway, and it's silly of any instructor to think that they wouldn't.

    While I appreciate Shotokan instructors being strict, they should view the full picture of a student. That would be my philosophy were I to ever grade people as an instructor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  4. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    Again though, we do the same thing. For us destruction isn't about the wood, it's about performing the technique correctly without holding back because there's an object in the way.

    If the candidate still performs the technique correctly, but the board doesn't break then they still pass that section. By the same token, if they used a horrible sloppy technique but the board broke, should they have passed? Not here - as I said, it's all about the technique.
     
  5. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    Huh? No use putting forward a board if the objective isn't to break it. Might as well have the student hit a mitts or something else then. That being said, the problem I just raised in Shotokan is rarely prevalent in TKD gradings based on my experience, and that is a positive. Would you agree?
     
  6. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    Aren't you affiliated with the KKW? The conditions clearly state the objective is to break the board.
     
  7. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    As if that wasn't enough, the board wasn't even wood....
     
  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    No, you are claiming that Shotokan is like that and I've quoted your posts where you say it is. Have you ever trained in a Shotokan class? You are putting them down so much yet I suspect you actually know nothing about them. What you posted wasn't proof at all, it was one person's blog telling us his opinion, there was no proof there at all.

    No, he is making very plain his dislike of a particular karate style.

    You see here you go again...'all Shotokan instructors'. You are basing your opinion on what ONE person says, you are taking what his side of the story is to be true of ALL Shotokan instructors and of the style. You also show a huge lack of knowledge about kata and bunkai. The criticisms you make of Shotokan and it's instructors is breathtakingly ignorant. Your outrage is based on ignorance.





    You stated that in your TKD's school's grading a person failed to break a board and still passed the grading. It was you brought this up as being wrong, it has nothing to do with Shotokan where they rarely use board breaking at any time yet now it's not a problem and it's something else that's wrong with Shotokan? Really, you need to start reading what you write. You probably also need to read and understand what senior TKD people are telling you unless you think you know better than them?
     
  9. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    No, I stated that they very well can be. Is there a problem for you reading things through the lens of nuances instead of absolutes?

    Yes.

    It was one person relaying his experience, which confirms other peoples reports. Black belt tests in Shotokan are notoriously picky.





    Once again, I did not state that all Shotokan instructors fit the bill. There is no mention of the word all, except in your mind



    I'm comparing laxed gradings with overly rigid ones. And if I had to pick, I'd take the laxed one since it would not risk negating talented students at sparring who flunk because of microscopic kata pickiness.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  10. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    You aren't talking in nuances ( whatever that means lol) you are making statements that you are getting pulled up for and can't substantiate.



    To black belt?

    You see, there you go again. 'Black belt tests in shotokan are notoriously picky', in whose opinion? Yours. As I said before and you didn't read, obviously, one person's 'picky' is another's ideal. You can't judge and have shown nothing to prove that they are excessively 'picky'.





    When you say 'Shotokan is this or that' don't you understand that you are saying 'all'? there is no qualifier from you saying that it's some, a few or even just a couple. See above where you say 'Shotokan gradings...' this is you saying 'all'. apart from the fact it's not true.


    I have no idea what a 'laxed' grading is, I assume you mean 'lax'. You may want to look up the word. No one wants a lax test.
     
  11. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Master Black Belt

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    Generally I have seen that many students actually fail or even are never asked to test because their attitude sucks. I personally would not grade an arrogant person who thinks they know everything or the ones who think they are entitled to a certain rank.
     
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  12. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    The qualifer is the preface: "can be". The absence of the word "all" is another. I know of Shotokan instructors who take into account individual differences when grading a persons kata. I also know of instructors that don't. The trend seems to be that the higher ranked and prolific the instructor is, the worse it is when it comes to rigidness. I can reference more experiences from a Shihan, Japanese Shotokan instructor who objected to stylistic way the student performed a kata, and failed him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  13. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    You're about as picky with words with a foreign poster as S O M E Shotokan instructors are with Katas in gradings. Congrats. Laxed was my attempt to use the word "lax" in past tense, which turned out to be incorrect.
     
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  14. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    My attitude was based on past experiences, and past experiences in my club indicates to me that my instructor does not fail anyone no matter how much they screw up. A grandmaster, Chief instructor and President of the Federation. But I'm sure he's not representative at all! TKD gradings are super strict and I could be the first one to fail his test in ages (sarcasm*).
     
  15. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    You have not said English isn't your first language. However, being 'picky' with words is important, using the wrong word changes the whole meaning of sentences and totally skews understanding. Such as 'lax'. You are saying you want 'lax' gradings, this means you want careless... slack... negligent... slipshod... negligent ...neglectful gradings which are words for 'lax' and as I said no one wants that. You need another word instead to describe a grading that isn't over strict ( 'over strict' would do).

    it may well be that like your understanding of the word 'lax' your understanding of these gradings is flawed, influenced by what you have read.


    You are misunderstanding too that when you say 'Shotokan is known for something' that there is no qualifier to say you mean only some , you actually have to say that and not keep saying 'Shotokan is'.

    I assume too that you don't realise that you are contradicting yourself a lot as well, which makes for confusing reading for the rest of us.
     
  16. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    As is his right if he feels the student is wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. I take it you think you know better than this instructor in a style that's not your own? it's not my style either, so I wouldn't criticise someone else's instructor doing a style I don't do.
     
  17. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    Nope. I would take lax gradings over rigid ones and pass students who are gifted but lazy, rather than fail talented people who don't position their foot exactly 25 degrees in an age old kata with limited applicability for self defence, since people are constantly moving in such situations and not dogmatically fixed in a stance.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  18. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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  19. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sigh. Lax or laxed is still not what you want in a grading, you missed my point. If you have no sense of self respect then I suppose a lax grading is fine. Being slack isn't a good thing when it comes to gradings, it means you are rubbish basically. A slack person or someone doing a slack job is not good.

    This shows your total lack of understanding of kata. Here's another word for you to look up..... Bunkai. There is also your lack of understanding of 'lax' again, it isn't the opposite of rigid in the way you think it is. Lax is not a good thing, in this context the opposite of 'rigid' would be 'relaxed'.
    Rewarding laziness? then why should anyone bother working hard, striving to be the best they can if you reward laziness. Being gifted is worth nothing without putting the work in. You don't reward people for having a full head of hair or for having long legs, they were born that way so you don't 'reward' gifted people who do sweet Fanny Adams about anything, that's a nonsense. You work hard and then you are rewarded.

    You haven't understood that people who take a style that demands a very high standard are happy there, it's what they want. If they don't want that then they walk away. We each choose a style and stay with it because it suits what we like and want. You don't get to criticise what other styles do when their students are happy with it, hundreds of thousands if not millions over the years have graded in Shotokan, are you saying you know better than all of them and that they shouldn't bother?
     
  20. Axiom

    Axiom Black Belt

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    The bunkai is executed in the exact same stances as in the katas... Those stances are not likely to be implemented during a live confrontation. Thus the applicability of katas may only extend to the actually strikes, not the stances. So to fail a student based on stances or exact posture of the upper body is unwarranted from a self defence perspective. Shotokan is marketed as a self defence, and gradings should take into account not just the kata.
     
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