Promotion stanrdards (Split from Is it disrespectful to ask [...])

[TrueJim]

A side kick to the knee is a million times more effective than one to the head

For combat, that's a fair point. Even if kicking to the knee weren't more effective, it's certainly easier to learn and easier to execute -- this means that the ratio of Difficulty to Effectiveness is very favorable for knee kicks.

That having been said, if we're only practicing stuff that's "easy to do but very effective" then there are things that are even more effective that require even less practice.

 

[TrueJim]

Well it should be because that's when you start getting to instructor level when kids walk in the door and see a black belt they look up to that person and will follow what they do, so if you're not that good they'll be copying bad habits so yeah it should be strict. All tests should be strict in my eyes if they're not that's when you start getting black belts who are garbage and then falling into mcdojo territory

I think to Axiom's point, if you're only a first degree black belt you're supposed to be reasonably proficient in the basics. (He did say that in his post: the basics.) So to your point, if a kid is walking through the door, a first degree black belt is certainly able to demonstrate the basics well. But Axiom is right, being first degree doesn't mean you're yet proficient in the entirety of the curriculum.

 

[TrueJim]

I'm referring to the rear leg sidekick, just so you guys now. Lead leg sidekick is not particularly intricate.

Certainly a lead-leg sidekick is easier...but to your original point: you still see beginners perform even a lead-leg sidekick with their hips pulled back, instead of their hips pushed forward -- i.e., it's some weird Frankenstein hybrid of a real sidekick with a sort-of-front-facing-kick.

 

[JR 137]

A side kick to the knee is a million times more effective than one to the head

Not when said head is below my waist.

 

[Tez3]

Well it should be because that's when you start getting to instructor level when kids walk in the door and see a black belt they look up to that person and will follow what they do, so if you're not that good they'll be copying bad habits so yeah it should be strict. All tests should be strict in my eyes if they're not that's when you start getting black belts who are garbage and then falling into mcdojo territory

In a lot of places the 1st Dan grading is strict and very thorough. I think what Axiom is doing is thinking that what happens in his place of training is the standard for everyone, sadly ( or luckily in my view) that's not so and many places are as you say they should be, strict. My 1st Dan test was a day long grading and we were exhausted at the end of it, there was no certainty of passing even though our instructors had recommended we grade. My instructor said he wanted no black belts who weren't up to standard or who had walked through a grading knowing they would pass.

 

[MA_Student]

In a lot of places the 1st Dan grading is strict and very thorough. I think what Axiom is doing is thinking that what happens in his place of training is the standard for everyone, sadly ( or luckily in my view) that's not so and many places are as you say they should be, strict. My 1st Dan test was a day long grading and we were exhausted at the end of it, there was no certainty of passing even though our instructors had recommended we grade. My instructor said he wanted no black belts who weren't up to standard or who had walked through a grading knowing they would pass.

No belt test should be easy in my eyes you should have to put everything in 100% every belt. My black belt test wasnt that long maybe 4 hours at most and it had 10 people on the panel ranging from 4th-9th dans. Frankly I think if someone goes into a test /knowing/ they're going to pass they should fail because that's not the right attitude. I'd hate to have that attitude that I know I'm going to pass. Every test I've done I've known I could easily fail and that's what motivates you to work as hard as you can. If I knew I was going to get it no matter I probably wouldn't put as much effort in as what's the point killing myself for something I know Im going to get but if you think you can fail you will put in the extra effort. Same as In a fight (boxing mma etc) you go in knowing you'll win you'll most likely get beaten e.g Anderson silva v chris weidman, Todd duffee v mike Russow, bisping v rockhold. If you go into anything thinking it's a certainty then you seriously need to take a look at yourself in my opinon

 

[Tez3]

If I knew I was going to get it no matter I probably wouldn't put as much effort in as what's the point killing myself for something I know Im going to get but if you think you can fail you will put in the extra effort.

Absolutely. If you know you're going to get it why even bother grading, just go and buy yourself a nice shiny new belt lol. If he'd said 'when I get my black belt' as an affirmation he was going to work hard and achieve it someday then fine but casually chucking it into a conversation sounds like someone who is either over confident or is paying for his grading and is sure he'll get his belt. I tend to go for over confident because he feels he can criticise from knowledge other styles and other fighters.
There's also the strange case of saying Bas Rutten can't possibly have earned his Dan grades yet is positive that he himself will get his because the grading isn't strict and he'll pass, mmm.

 

[MA_Student]

Absolutely. If you know you're going to get it why even bother grading, just go and buy yourself a nice shiny new belt lol. If he'd said 'when I get my black belt' as an affirmation he was going to work hard and achieve it someday then fine but casually chucking it into a conversation sounds like someone who is either over confident or is paying for his grading and is sure he'll get his belt. I tend to go for over confident because he feels he can criticise from knowledge other styles and other fighters.
There's also the strange case of saying Bas Rutten can't possibly have earned his Dan grades yet is positive that he himself will get his because the grading isn't strict and he'll pass, mmm.

Frankly it shouldn't be easy at all to get a black belt you definentely shouldn't be knowing a year in advance when you're guaranteed to test and guaranteed you'll pass. It's things like that that's bringing down traditional martial arts. I'm only 21 so I haven't been around it since the beginning but frankly I wish I had because I'd have preferred it then to what it is now. These days you tell someone you're a black belt people's reaction would be oh cool yeah so is my brother, my sister, my cousin, 5 of my friends and my uncles dog. In some places it's ridiculous easy to get one. I know for a fact I worked my *** off for mine I trained 5 days a week in classes and practiced every day so it makes me sick to see people who just stroll in after not having trained for 3 months and get a black belt in 20 minutes (not even joking I know one guy at a different school to me did a black belt grading in 20 minutes)

 

[TrueJim]

As others have pointed out previously, at some schools, the black belt test itself is mostly a formality -- a chance to demonstrate what you can do. Our school has 6 weeks of special pre-test workouts and practice sessions (typically 3-4 hours each). Typically about 80 students (from multiple schools) start the 6-week training sessions, about 20 students finish. Sometime during the course of the six weeks, when they fail to pass muster, the other 60 students are quietly told to wait until the next go-round to try again. Of the 20 who test, typically about 18 pass (it's still possible to choke under pressure, even when the test is mostly a formality). If you test and fail, there's no refund for the testing fee, and you have to wait a year to try again. My point being, not all black belt tests need to be grueling in order to separate the wheat from the chaff -- there are other ways to accomplish that as well.

 

[Tez3]

My point being, not all black belt tests need to be grueling in order to separate the wheat from the chaff -- there are other ways to accomplish that as well.

I agree but one should also not assume that all gradings are done the same way. The assertion that black belt gradings aren't suppose to be strict is wrong. It's dependent on where you train.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The downside with having a rear leg sidekick as your strong point, is that it's almost never used in sparring. It takes too long to execute and heavily telegraphed. You should ideally be good at a technique which is practical, and the rear leg sidekick frankly isn't.

That maybe the way it is in your system but that is not how it is in every system.

 

[andyjeffries]

A side kick to the knee is a million times more effective than one to the head

You'd think so, but it's quite common in MMA these days and while I'm sure it smarts, it's certainly not as devastating as you'd imagine. Of course, when most people imagine it, in their head the opponent stands still and his knee gets obliterated, in reality they move with it and then try to punch you in the face (or something else equally painful).

 

[andyjeffries]

Well it should be because that's when you start getting to instructor level

Only internationally. We see black belts as experts in the west, but in Korea they're competent beginners. Instructor level begins at 4th Dan in the eyes of the founders.

 

[andyjeffries]

My 1st Dan test was a day long grading and we were exhausted at the end of it

not even joking I know one guy at a different school to me did a black belt grading in 20 minutes

I have the complete opposite opinion to those two posted above and so does my instructor (who is quite internationally known and respected). You put the hours in during training. If you're training under a decent qualified master, they know you're ready for way before the black belt test recommendation. Then on the day, if the examiner knows their stuff, how long should it take for them to assess the candidates' skill?

Should it really take a day for a high dan examiner watching a candidate to say "yes, they're now a competent beginner, ready for a 1st level black belt of 9 possible levels (that will take another 40 years of training to achieve), who we don't even trust enough to let them promote someone else from white belt". It's the bottom rung on a LONG journey...

My grading syllabus is public and I have no problem saying, yes, that's really all we require - three poomsae, two free sparring rounds, one step sparring, self defence and two board breaks. Even that is more than required by the Kukkiwon. On the Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner Course in Austria, 2015 they told us the testing requirements and said you can add your own in (which I've done), but I still don't need to watch a candidate (particularly one that has trained under me) for a whole day to confirm they're ready.

I think I have a more Korean mindset on this topic than a western one, but not quite as far as the Koreans take it ;-)

Anyway, just my opinion.

 

[Tez3]

I have the complete opposite opinion to those two posted above and so does my instructor (who is quite internationally known and respected). You put the hours in during training. If you're training under a decent qualified master, they know you're ready for way before the black belt test recommendation. Then on the day, if the examiner knows their stuff, how long should it take for them to assess the candidates' skill?

Should it really take a day for a high dan examiner watching a candidate to say "yes, they're now a competent beginner, ready for a 1st level black belt of 9 possible levels (that will take another 40 years of training to achieve), who we don't even trust enough to let them promote someone else from white belt". It's the bottom rung on a LONG journey...

Different styles and different clubs/schools do things differently, it doesn't make it wrong to take a long test nor does it mean it's wrong to do a quick one because the student has already demonstrated ability.
For my test it was a matter of having a lot to demonstrate before the board, we have a big curriculum including ground work, weapons, techniques, kata, combinations, Ohyogumite, Kihon kumite, free sparring, self defence and teaching. That will easily take a day to show.

Stances alone we have 5 'natural stances, 6 'even' stances, 11 'uneven' stances and 4 'others'. All 15 kicks are done off each leg some also to different heights ie one to knee, one to middle one to head as well as jumping kicks which are done two different ways. We have 15 'arm' blocks, as well as leg blocks sweeps etc. There's also body movements to show then there's renrakuwaza ( combination techniques) done in line as well as set ones...ipponkumite and yakusoku. a lot is done in line work which saves some time but much isn't. The sheer volume of techniques etc we have to show makes it a long day.

The point too was that we enjoyed the day, yes we knew we had our instructors confidence and they knew we were prepared but going into something like that gives you a huge sense of accomplishment and confidence coming out of it. Perhaps you could call it a rite of passage, perhaps not but it certainly gave you a thrill to be presented with your black belt afterwards. It may have just been us doing what you do, showing off what we know, but because it was a long and encompassing day we really felt we'd worked hard. Did we need to show every techniques? Probably not but it felt great being able to remember and execute every single one of those movements. We would never do that again, not for subsequent gradings. Do people fail? Yes.

 

[Tez3]

And yes gradings should be strict even if you know you are going to pass, no reason for sloppy techniques and laziness whatever type of grading you do! It's an occasion, whether just ceremonial or a proper test one should still have standards.

 

[MA_Student]

I have the complete opposite opinion to those two posted above and so does my instructor (who is quite internationally known and respected). You put the hours in during training. If you're training under a decent qualified master, they know you're ready for way before the black belt test recommendation. Then on the day, if the examiner knows their stuff, how long should it take for them to assess the candidates' skill?

Should it really take a day for a high dan examiner watching a candidate to say "yes, they're now a competent beginner, ready for a 1st level black belt of 9 possible levels (that will take another 40 years of training to achieve), who we don't even trust enough to let them promote someone else from white belt". It's the bottom rung on a LONG journey...

My grading syllabus is public and I have no problem saying, yes, that's really all we require - three poomsae, two free sparring rounds, one step sparring, self defence and two board breaks. Even that is more than required by the Kukkiwon. On the Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner Course in Austria, 2015 they told us the testing requirements and said you can add your own in (which I've done), but I still don't need to watch a candidate (particularly one that has trained under me) for a whole day to confirm they're ready.

I think I have a more Korean mindset on this topic than a western one, but not quite as far as the Koreans take it ;-)

Anyway, just my opinion.

No ones saying anything about set times they're saying that it shouldn't be a walk in the park and they should be strict which they should

 

[Axiom]

And yes gradings should be strict even if you know you are going to pass, no reason for sloppy techniques and laziness whatever type of grading you do! It's an occasion, whether just ceremonial or a proper test one should still have standards.

I wrote that they aren't super strict. A girl around 25 years of age, in good health, failed to break a board with her knife hand despite multiple tries and was still awarded a black belt, despite breaking being a formal requirement.

 

[MA_Student]

I wrote that they aren't super strict. A girl around 25 years of age, in good health, failed to break a board with her knife hand despite multiple tries and was still awarded a black belt, despite breaking being a formal requirement.

Well then that's just wrong and your instructor obviously isn't as much as a perfectionist as you claim. I personally don't agree with breaking as a requirement for a test but if that's what they require and someone fails to do it then they shouldn't be given the belt it's as simple as that to me. Giving someone a black belt even though they failed a simple requirement is just silly....why make it a requirement if they're going to pass you anyway. It's things like this that take away the legitemancy of a black belt.

But hey I can see why you're so confident you won't fail now

 

[Axiom]

Well then that's just wrong and your instructor obviously isn't as much as a perfectionist as you claim. I personally don't agree with breaking as a requirement for a test but if that's what they require and someone fails to do it then they shouldn't be given the belt it's as simple as that to me. Giving someone a black belt even though they failed a simple requirement is just silly....why make it a requirement if they're going to pass you anyway. It's things like this that take away the legitemancy of a black belt.

But hey I can see why you're so confident you won't fail now

Have you been living under a rock? TKD black belt standards are infamously laxed.