practice and pain..

ikenpo

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Haven't been posting much, but figured I throw this out there..

While training I normally have two type of sessions..one is a conditioning session that includes basics, freestyle sparring, focus mitt drills, aerobic exercises like jump rope, etc... The other type of session deals more with running the line, basics, forms and sets. My question or comment, is that I find myself being sore in different ways after each session. After the "conditioning or drills session" session, 2 days later, I have a general soreness all over the body. What some might call that "good" sore feeling like you know you worked out. But after the other session, "the line or skills session" I find that my lower back is often sore. I thinking it comes from the rotational force in the techniques and hard dropping while using gravitational marriage. While training, I'm on good swain mats that allow for some cushion so I haven't have "knee issues" (knock on wood), but I just wondered how many others see their body reacting differently depending on the type of force they have exert in class the day before?

Respectfully, jb

p.s. the funny thing is that I ask this as I notice on a video that Dan Inosanto is wearing a back support will teaching at a semiar quite a few years ago. This man is in amazing shape for his age, but the arts do create wear and tear..
 
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Scott Bonner

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Right now I'm working 2 martial arts, Tracy's Kenpo (for the last few weeks) and ITF-style Tae-Kwon-Do (off and on over the last year). Also, I'm practicing my American Kenpo stuff when I can. I find exactly the effect you described, with my TKD workouts being more drilling and sweating and my Tracy's Kenpo workouts being more learning and working technique at a somewhat slower pace.

Not only that, but I now think of myself as having "Kenpo muscles" and "TKD muscles", since different mucles get fatiqued depending on what I'm learning.

Finally, I find that almost every time I work out I have soreness or minor injuries the next day. I'm 31, so I guess I'm past the recuperative peak. Kenpo gives me back, neck and soles-of-feet soreness/injury, while TKD gives me ankle, shoulder, and soles-of-feet soreness/injury (they both put a lot of pressure on the soles of the feet, between "marriage of gravity" and TKD power kicking).

Also, curiously enough, I feel a bit of difference in which muscles are tired between the times I do Tracy's Kenpo workouts and the times I do American Kenpo workouts. I think it's because there are significant differences regarding things like size of circles and strikes.

Peace,
Scott Bonner
 
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Jill666

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I haven't experienced that-

Being a nurse, my back and feet are often sore, to the point of hobbling for the first 20 minutes out of bed. But I think it's only due to work, not to MA class.

I'm 34- hopefully I'll hold up as time goes on. :(

Scott has a point- Ninpo & Kenpo produces different fatigue in different areas. Kenpo- shoulders & quads, Ninpo- wrists & inner thighs for example. But only that good burn- with the exception of acute bumps & bruises.

But my back never acts up due to class activity- usually I get stretched out & feel better after training.
 

redfang

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I haven't had back pain with any of the arts I practice now (Tracy's Kenpo, Shootifighting and Tai Chi Chuan), though sometimes I have knee pain for a few days after throughing a lot of roundhouse kicks (like after thirty minutes or so of straight kicks.) I know that this comes from the fact that after I start to tire some, I pivot more from the hip and knee than foot, resulting in the pain in my knees.
 
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Elfan

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The motion of your art should heal and not hurt you. You will become sore from any new strenuous motion but after that the only time your art should lead to injuries is when you hit things or they hit you.
 
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ikenpo

ikenpo

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Originally posted by Elfan
The motion of your art should heal and not hurt you. You will become sore from any new strenuous motion but after that the only time your art should lead to injuries is when you hit things or they hit you.

I thought I recognized that...

"The motion of your art should heal and not hurt you." ~ Skip Hancock

I think we are all speaking of making "contact". While training on pads (making contact), while running the line (not playing pitty pat, but making contact or something getting "hit" as you put it) and using those anatomical energies that are created from principle execution. Even within the execution of your K2000 master key movements (h,w,t,l) you can't tell me that there isn't any wear and tear on the body at some point over years. Or maybe you can, I guess it depends on how it is done.

jb:asian:
 

KenpoTess

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With Summer supposedly almost here.. I know our classes have slowed down as far as warm-ups, and that has affected my back issues (full fusion with a cage). The other night we were doing kicking drills across the studio floor back and forth, and then kicking shield drills ( which for some reason, don't know if it's the impact of kicking the shield, but it causes alot of problems in my pelvis and hips/back) I stupidly didn't stretch out before hand and my lower spine/pelvis was hurting. I know that we older kenpoists don't keep the elasticity the younger ones do. If I go a week without stretching, I reverse the degree of flexibility I had reached. So, in essence, I'm my own enemy and know better, but I got to a burn-out phase and have to get motivated to start the beneficial but boring task of warming up before kicking etc.
 
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Elfan

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Originally posted by jbkenpo
I thought I recognized that...

"The motion of your art should heal and not hurt you." ~ Skip Hancock

I think we are all speaking of making "contact". While training on pads (making contact), while running the line (not playing pitty pat, but making contact or something getting "hit" as you put it) and using those anatomical energies that are created from principle execution. Even within the execution of your K2000 master key movements (h,w,t,l) you can't tell me that there isn't any wear and tear on the body at some point over years. Or maybe you can, I guess it depends on how it is done.

jb:asian:

hmm I thought I was paraphrasing and not quoting but heh ;-)

First keep in mind I'm young so even if I moved in very anatomicaly incorrect ways I could probably get away with it for now. So I can't really comment on long term wear and tear. Our joints need to move to function, don't bend your elbow for a year and you probably never will again. If you were very pessimistic about it I supose you could say that the motion of your art should hurt you less than anything else.

As to the original question about wear from hitting things and being hit, well ya it happens. I don't care how good you move, if your hitting walls and bricks and such all day long your going to break things, and if your getting hit your going to get hurt as well. Do that for a few years and things probably won't work right any more.
 
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ikenpo

ikenpo

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Originally posted by Elfan
hmm I thought I was paraphrasing and not quoting but heh ;-)

First keep in mind I'm young so even if I moved in very anatomicaly incorrect ways I could probably get away with it for now. So I can't really comment on long term wear and tear. Our joints need to move to function, don't bend your elbow for a year and you probably never will again. If you were very pessimistic about it I supose you could say that the motion of your art should hurt you less than anything else.

As to the original question about wear from hitting things and being hit, well ya it happens. I don't care how good you move, if your hitting walls and bricks and such all day long your going to break things, and if your getting hit your going to get hurt as well. Do that for a few years and things probably won't work right any more.

You may have paraphrased, but it was very close..;)

It isn't that I didn't agree with your original comment. I would think we could share a mat any time as family. My art has healed me over the years, but more internally. Externally I have be able to maintain a level of fitness, but internally I have been able to control those emotions that at times make me want to hurt people. My big (very personal) problem seems to be when people just make seemingly prophetic (but unsubstantiated) statements to answer (or brush off) a straight forward question. The system is caught up in too much double speak as it is...

When I spoke with Mr. Hancock and asked him a question his answer began something like, "well, if you look at the actual twitch response..." Shortly there after I began to get dizzy, I think the air had thinned given the altitude of the answer....lol. But seriously, he was very straight forward and practical in his response to all my questions. I believe in many of the ideas in his book and his videos.

jb:asian:
 

Kalicombat

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Great topic Jason! I've found that one way to minimize the aches that inevitably follow an intense sparring session is to incorporate "core" training exercises into your conditioning. Heavy squats, deadlifts, and powercleans not only work the entire body, but they work the spinal column, and the central nervous system. Machines in the weight room, while effective for building muscle, have little to know effect on the central nervous system. Heavy free wieght exercises like I mentioned above realy tap into the reserves and condition the deep fibers. For me, the marriage of kenpo and powerlifting realy blend well. It also creates alot of explosiveness in all strikes and kicks. The advantages to your hips from doing squats is also an obvious advantage to adding torque, and the ability to withstand the constant strain on your hips from striking and kicking.


Just my $0.02,
Gary Catherman
 

Ender

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no brain...no pain..*L...ok..that was a groaner...
 
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roryneil

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The art shouldn't hurt you. In fact, has anyone else noticed it makes you somewhat impervious to pain? I mean, I'll find a big bruise one day, and don't have any idea where it came from:confused:
If it hurts, you are doing it wrong. Every time we work Locking Horns, I know my neck is going to hurt later. And yes, I know I'm doing it wrong!!:rolleyes:
 
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Elfan

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Originally posted by roryneil
The art shouldn't hurt you. In fact, has anyone else noticed it makes you somewhat impervious to pain? I mean, I'll find a big bruise one day, and don't have any idea where it came from:confused:


Umm if you found a big bruise doesn't that mean you got hurt?
 
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roryneil

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That's my point. I never FELT the punch or kick or whatever that caused the bruise. Not that I'm the man of steel, but nothing hurts in class. The next day or two might be a different matter...
 
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Elfan

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Okay I see what you are saying and that makes sense. Increased pain tolerance would be a huge benifit in a fight. However, the thrust of the topic (I belive) was long term damage from training. Even if you don't "feal" it when it happens your body is still being damaged from big old briuses.

When I spoke with Mr. Hancock and asked him a question his answer began something like, "well, if you look at the actual twitch response..." Shortly there after I began to get dizzy, I think the air had thinned given the altitude of the answer....lol. But seriously, he was very straight forward and practical in his response to all my questions. I believe in many of the ideas in his book and his videos.

Out of curiosity, what was your question?
 
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ikenpo

ikenpo

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Originally posted by Elfan
Out of curiosity, what was your question?

It dealt with the idea of adding "lift" to his list of Master Key movements...
 
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RCastillo

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Kenpo, or the TKD that get to me, regardless of what I'm doing, it's the running that's beginning to affect me. My hips, and my other knee are hurting more as I run. I don't feel too much afterwards as far as training, practising goes.:asian:
 
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Elfan

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Originally posted by jbkenpo
It dealt with the idea of adding "lift" to his list of Master Key movements...

Ahh coolness. Did you feal like you had an answer once your head stopped spinning?
 
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ikenpo

ikenpo

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Originally posted by RCastillo
Kenpo, or the TKD that get to me, regardless of what I'm doing, it's the running that's beginning to affect me. My hips, and my other knee are hurting more as I run. I don't feel too much afterwards as far as training, practising goes.:asian:

I thought we took Kenpo so we didn't have to run? LOL

jb:D
 
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ikenpo

ikenpo

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Originally posted by Elfan
Ahh coolness. Did you feel like you had an answer once your head stopped spinning?

Sure, I enjoy discussing the theoretical and conceptual aspects of Kenpo. Of course most of my buddies are actual hard bangers that are about the down and dirty on the mat application. Not that Mr. Hancock isn't, I just haven't had a chance to work with him on the mat where these ideas are proven.

jb
 

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